Why cant God make a square circle?

[ShanPO]

thank you. this makes sense to me. God has made one reality in which a square and circle are completely distinct. my objection is when Christians then say that this comnination is perse impossible for God. but maybe that’s true only from our view.

also what do people mean that nothing IS impossible for God?

I think you’re looking at this in the wrong way. Consider truth. There can be only 1 truth, right? Any other “versions” of the truth aren’t the truth.

You asked about 2+4=93. Basic truth about 2+2=4 (foregoing all the other mathmatics stuff, we’re just talking basic 1st grade math) dictates that any values of 2+2 other than 4 are not truth. Even though God is omnipotent and omniscient, and I would go a step further to say that not only is God bound by logic, but that God in and of Himself IS logic, so a Being that IS logic isn’t going to waste time with that which is illogical and outside of the truth.

Could God create a square circle? I’m sure if He wanted to, tomorrow morning when everyone on the planet wakes up, they could be implanted with knowledge of the sqircle (I really dig this word, BTW), but according to the laws of our world right now, laws which were created by Logic, a square circle is an absolute impossibility because it defies logic and Logic.

 

[seagal]

That is not correct, a circle is a two dimensional object, which means there is no “edge on” viewpoint. Or saying it another way, it’s edge has a height of zero.

Not in Flatland

 

[friardchips]

deleted

 

[tafan]

ha ha! its funny. yes like angels on a pin. but to me its not uselfulnes that is important. its the assertion that there are creatures or kinds of creatures, paradoxical ones, that god CANNOT make. if some say god cannot make a creature that is God. I understand. because god cannot make himself not god and a creature. but if the two remain distinct. God is God and creature is creature and distinction is made. I have a VERY hard time accepting limitations grounded only in human logic.

I accept that there is a limitation in language as some have explained. so I can accept such statements as limitation of human to describe God. but not limitation human by themselves have decided apply to God withut God confirming it himself.

now I really really done. will get back tomorrow to read. the limitation on language is a helpful concept to me. thank you.

You say it is a limitation grounded in human logic, that is not correct. Logic is a tool used to express certain truths. But this whole question is not even one of logic. Logic proves that a there are no squares that are also circles. They are two different things. God can create anything, but a square circle is nothing.

I ask you again: can God create a man who is an angel?

 

[Rhubarb]

If we accept that God exists outside of space and time than I don’t see why he couldn’t create a square circle. There’s no space where he is. Why limit that extra-spacial place to our understanding of space? Could he create a space where a square circle exists? Probably. But I have no idea what that of space that would be. Could he do it in our space? If he is omnipotent than yes. My ability to understand or conceive it is irrelevant.

God making rocks even he can’t lift is a better paradox. It pits omnipotence against omnipotence - not just omnipotence against my mortal understanding.

 

[cheezey]

Laugh out loud. Why would God want to or need to? What would You do with a square circle?

Sounds like another thread.
I’d give one to someone masquerading as a sibling, because he is forever trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

RE: the question:
God could, I am supposing, but God wouldn’t, I am also supposing, because then He’d be upsetting the natural balance He created.

 

[davidv]

If we accept that God exists outside of space and time than I don’t see why he couldn’t create a square circle. There’s no space where he is. Why limit that extra-spacial place to our understanding of space? Could he create a space where a square circle exists? Probably. But I have no idea what that of space that would be. Could he do it in our space? If he is omnipotent than yes. My ability to understand or conceive it is irrelevant.

God making rocks even he can’t lift is a better paradox. It pits omnipotence against omnipotence - not just omnipotence against my mortal understanding.

Paradox = a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.

Contradiction = a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.

The problem of the OP and the rock are contradictions not paradoxes.

The Trinity is a paradox. A square circle is a contradiction.

 

[Rhubarb]

Paradox = a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.

Contradiction = a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.

The problem of the OP and the rock are contradictions not paradoxes.

The Trinity is a paradox. A square circle is a contradiction.

Very well. Replace the single use of the word “paradox” to “contradiction” in my post. It doesn’t change my intended meaning. These contradictions are designed to play gotcha with God. And I don’t think the square circle is a very good gotcha. And I think the heavy rock is a better gotcha qua gotcha games.

 

[friardchips]

I think you’re looking at this in the wrong way. Consider truth. There can be only 1 truth, right? Any other “versions” of the truth aren’t the truth.

You asked about 2+4=93. Basic truth about 2+2=4 (foregoing all the other mathmatics stuff, we’re just talking basic 1st grade math) dictates that any values of 2+2 other than 4 are not truth. Even though God is omnipotent and omniscient, and I would go a step further to say that not only is God bound by logic, but that God in and of Himself IS logic, so a Being that IS logic isn’t going to waste time with that which is illogical and outside of the truth.

Could God create a square circle? I’m sure if He wanted to, tomorrow morning when everyone on the planet wakes up, they could be implanted with knowledge of the sqircle (I really dig this word, BTW), but according to the laws of our world right now, laws which were created by Logic, a square circle is an absolute impossibility because it defies logic and Logic.

I would agree that God could make a square circle but if it were to be fitted into the mathematical fabric of the universe the universe would be rebuilt upon new laws of maths and physics to incorporate this new shape of God’s. The universe is as good as it could be - the best option because it is created by God - and so to build a universe with this shape in mind He would be purposefully making something less than perfect not just a good creation which is as good as it gets that allows for imperfection. It would not necessarily result in the desired purpose of our universe as we know it but something less because of the fact He made it as good as it can be. He could do it with a new order of things - nothing is impossible for Him - but then He would not because it would not lead us who is in the image of Him to Him who is the completion of us. If it could have been He would have done it. His universal laws are based on complete and perfect LOVE for us as it stands. To introduce a square-circle now into the fabric of the universe would throw the world, as we know it, into chaos. If it weren’t for Christ dying for our sins He could destroy us because we don’t deserve Him - His grace and love are gifts - and ultimately everyone who ever lives does not have a right to life - it is a generous gift. It is only through His mercy that we are saved. Even Saints are only saved through grace. Life is kept good-oriented because of grace. Chaos can lead back to Him because it is within Him but because He is love, for Him to cause chaos that would throw the universe into the abyss before what He has willed has been achieved, would not be done by His hands, because He has given us His Word. He is not bound by us to not make a square-circle, He is bound by the Promise of His Word, He is bound by Himself. So to do anything that will compromise His promise would make God something less than God. Contradiction and so a false negative. God could have made it so men give birth, or men or women self-pro create but He didn’t make it that way because to do so would have been a less than perfect way. So for this reason He would not make a square-circle. So yes, God has the power to do anything, but His WILL does not allow for anything less than what IS. His very nature will only WILL anything that is for our good due to the promise He has made. We could create an abstract shape and call it a square-circle but then all abstraction and mutation exists within time and so within the possibilities of existence still. Even chaos - the seeming absence of order, and evil - the turning inwards away from love, or nothing, which is the seeming absence of something is all within Him and although he doesn’t create them they are possible due to the order of His universe within His existence and He can create good out of all of everything. He has the power to cause chaos but the paradox is He cannot go against Himself, so His Nature which is love and His Will which wills love, won’t be outdone in generosity - this would go against His very promise of Himself.

I am guessing but I think it is true (?)

 

[Brendan]

Very well. Replace the single use of the word “paradox” to “contradiction” in my post. It doesn’t change my intended meaning. These contradictions are designed to play gotcha with God. And I don’t think the square circle is a very good gotcha. And I think the heavy rock is a better gotcha qua gotcha games.

Except that it is a contradiction and not a paradox. Contradictions cannot exist. Ergo, it is not a matter of, as you put it 'omnipotence vs omnipotence", Omni (all) potents (potentiality) only address what can be. A contradiction, by definition, has not potentiality.

 

[friardchips]

…so God is all powerful and could create a square-circle.

But He is bound by His own WILL not to.

I could go and eat tinned-peas only for the rest of my life but I am bound by my own will not to. Multiply the self-assurance of my own will by all the grains of sand on every beach in the world and it doesn’t come close to the WILL of God to keep His promise that is not just bound up in one human person’s selfish undeserving will but is a promise bound in relationship to the absolute all-giving and eternal love of the Holy Trinity - three persons in One God. A square-circle is therefore a false negative, a contradiction and void of logic and reason. If I wake up tomorrow and there are squircle trees I will know that something bad has happened to me between the time I slept to the time I woke up.

 

[tafan]

If we accept that God exists outside of space and time than I don’t see why he couldn’t create a square circle. There’s no space where he is. Why limit that extra-spacial place to our understanding of space? Could he create a space where a square circle exists? Probably. But I have no idea what that of space that would be. Could he do it in our space? If he is omnipotent than yes. My ability to understand or conceive it is irrelevant.

God making rocks even he can’t lift is a better paradox. It pits omnipotence against omnipotence - not just omnipotence against my mortal understanding.

Because a circle does not exist outside of space and time!!! It is a defined entity in Euclidian geometry: a set of points on a plane equidistant from a single point. It is nothing less, nothing more. A square is also a defined object in Euclidean geometry.
Logic simply tells us that there are not two sets of points which will satisfy both definitions.

Now, there are other types of geometry besides Euclidean. One could speculate there could be infinite types of geometry outside of space and time (I guess). But none of them would include a circle as we know it, because it is specifically an object of Euclidian geometry.

If God created something called a square-circle, it would not be a square and it would not be a circle.

God can create anything, but that does not mean something he creates can be simultaneously be two completely different objects. Again: can God create an man that is also an angel?

 

[yppop]

I haven’t read through this thread so I apologize if my comment is repetitious. In the mathematical study of shapes called topology, a square and a circle are homeomorphic which means they are the same shape. If topologist can make a square out of circle or vice versa; then surely God can do it.

Yppop

 

[JimG]

I haven’t read through this thread so I apologize if my comment is repetitious. In the mathematical study of shapes called topology, a square and a circle are homeomorphic which means they are the same shape. If topologist can make a square out of circle or vice versa; then surely God can do it.

Yppop

Yes, but then he would be changing one form into the other.

The fact is, God is not chaotic. He creates an orderly universe. If God is chaotic, we are all doomed.

The fact that we can think that contradictions in terms have meaning in reality is itself chaotic thinking.

 

[friardchips]

I haven’t read through this thread so I apologize if my comment is repetitious. In the mathematical study of shapes called topology, a square and a circle are homeomorphic which means they are the same shape. If topologist can make a square out of circle or vice versa; then surely God can do it.

Yppop

Is this what the OP means: to make a square, a circle? Rather than a square-circle? Now confused. If the OP means to simply morph a square into a circle then why not. Easy for God. But if it means that one replaces the other then it is not that He can’t but He won’t (chaos).

 

[One_point]

You say it is a limitation grounded in human logic, that is not correct. Logic is a tool used to express certain truths. But this whole question is not even one of logic. Logic proves that a there are no squares that are also circles. They are two different things. God can create anything, but a square circle is nothing.

I ask you again: can God create a man who is an angel?

Hello. man-angel is the same kind of thing as sqircle for this discussion. that the reality that exists or that the reality we know about seems to our logic has them as 2 distinct things that logic cannot have them be one at once doesn’t mean that God couldn’t make it. I may not understand it but I also don’t think my lack of understanding it means it cannot be a thing.

So I guess my confusion is two: why humans think that creatures that logic say are contradiction means they cannot exist. may be they can but are completely unknowable through logic. why all possibilities must conform to logic?

why cannot God make a nothing? it repeated by several people. can someone please explain what t means or why?

 

[One_point]

Because a circle does not exist outside of space and time!!! It is a defined entity in Euclidian geometry: a set of points on a plane equidistant from a single point. It is nothing less, nothing more. A square is also a defined object in Euclidean geometry.
Logic simply tells us that there are not two sets of points which will satisfy both definitions.

Now, there are other types of geometry besides Euclidean. One could speculate there could be infinite types of geometry outside of space and time (I guess). But none of them would include a circle as we know it, because it is specifically an object of Euclidian geometry.

If God created something called a square-circle, it would not be a square and it would not be a circle.

**God can create anything, but that does not mean something he creates can be simultaneously be two completely different objects. ** Again: can God create an man that is also an angel?

I am just not willing to confidently state this. I think there is a limit to human understanding and our logic is limited to what our reality says is possible through logic. but saying god cannot goes into possibilities that I think humans have no right to claim to be able to grasp and then dismiss. why cant we just have, this is a contradiction in logic and stop there? instead of making statements about God from it that he cannot do something. God is incomprehensible after all?

 

[One_point]

I think you’re looking at this in the wrong way. Consider truth. There can be only 1 truth, right? Any other “versions” of the truth aren’t the truth.

You asked about 2+4=93. Basic truth about 2+2=4 (foregoing all the other mathmatics stuff, we’re just talking basic 1st grade math) dictates that any values of 2+2 other than 4 are not truth. Even though God is omnipotent and omniscient, and I would go a step further to say that not only is God bound by logic, but that God in and of Himself IS logic, so a Being that IS logic isn’t going to waste time with that which is illogical and outside of the truth.

Could God create a square circle? I’m sure if He wanted to, tomorrow morning when everyone on the planet wakes up, they could be implanted with knowledge of the sqircle (I really dig this word, BTW), but according to the laws of our world right now, laws which were created by Logic, a square circle is an absolute impossibility because it defies logic and Logic.

yes. this is what I asked before! if logic is God then it make sense to say God cannot contradict logic because it will be God contradicting God. but if logic is not God, no amount of human reasoning can turn it into an impossibility for God who is limitless. so maybe lets continue on this line

is logic divine nature? or just a creature?

 

[Lion_IRC]

Catholics all say it but I don’t understand how any one has the courage to say what God can and cannot make.

Agreed.
I tend to think God can do anything He wants.
And I treat such discussions very carefully.

A square circle is a contradiction and is nonsense. God does not do nonsense.

Can we say that to a muslim who thinks that God cannot have a Son for exactly the same reason?

 

[1newcatholic]

1. As one poster pointed out, square circles CAN exist in non-Euclidean geometrical systems:

Wikipedia:

Bending the rules by allowing an infinite number of compass-and-straightedge operations or by performing the operations on certain non-Euclidean spaces also makes squaring the circle possible. For example, although the circle cannot be squared in Euclidean space, it can be in Gauss–Bolyai–Lobachevsky space. Indeed, even the preceding phrase is overoptimistic.[7][8] There are no squares as such in the hyperbolic plane, although there are regular quadrilaterals, meaning quadrilaterals with all sides congruent and all angles congruent (but these angles are strictly smaller than right angles). There exist, in the hyperbolic plane, (countably) infinitely many pairs of constructible circles and constructible regular quadrilaterals of equal area. However, there is no method for starting with a regular quadrilateral and constructing the circle of equal area, and there is no method for starting with a circle and constructing a regular quadrilateral of equal area (even when the circle has small enough radius such that a regular quadrilateral of equal area exists).

1. As someone else pointed out, God is capable of creating things that defy the binary categories established in human categories of knowledge. Anyone who doubts that should read up on the divine incarnation of Jesus, FULLY God and FULLY man. Every once in awhile, we find that previously assumed “impossibilities” are overturned, so perhaps we should be careful with our statements of what God can and cannot do?