Why can't Priests Preach ... like the Protestant Pastors can ?

[HereticalTheist]

Let me try again. Read slowly, if you must, and as many times as it takes.

I clearly showed that the word “ordained” means something different to Catholics than to Baptists. To Catholics, this means receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders. To Baptists, it does not, nor can it, since they cannot receive Holy Orders.

When Young Thinker said Baptist preachers are ‘not ordained’ I believe he was referring to “ordained” in the Catholic understanding of the word. If so, he was correct.

1. I understood you the first time, believe it or not, I get it when people are being deliberately insulting…try to work on that smug and condescending demeanor btw, it doesn’t flatter you.
2. You believe he was referring to Catholic Ordination…good for you. I believe that he was talking about Baptists, and that in a public forum, when talking about other belief systems, if you are going to use general terms like ‘ordained’ in a particular technical sense you should ideally make this known to your audience, which YT did not. I thus perfectly soberly to his claim to be a general claim that Baptist ministers are not educated or ordained in any fashion, which I know first-hand to be a falsehood. As a matter of fact I considered being ordained in the Baptist Church myself in my youth.
3. I reiterate, what kind of idiot do you think I am? Seriously?

 

[JustaServant]

Once, when I was still across the Tiber, I was ‘evangelist surfing’ on Sunday morning and came across a certain televangelist. He’s very popular, I can’t remember his name, but he was a ‘screamer’ and a performer. So I stopped and listened. He had a very simple outline. The sermon was motivational and somewhat empty of any spiritual meat. But his dramatic style of preaching was exciting to the crowd. They probably left that day thinking they heard the world’s greatest sermon. But if they took notes on his outline they see it was as empty as a two dollar bill.
Keep in mind I was a Baptist preacher.
But also keep in mind Catholics do not go to Mass to ‘hear an exciting homily’, we go to recieve the Eucharist. If the homily was good and blessed me, great. But it is the Body and Blood of Christ that we seek.

 

[CMatt25]

keep in mind Catholics do not go to Mass to ‘hear an exciting homily’, we go to recieve the Eucharist. If the homily was good and blessed me, great. But it is the Body and Blood of Christ that we seek.

I actually go to have my heart uplifted in music and homily too. God is capable of doing it all?

 

[Lutheranteach]

Seriously, though, all Protestants have is preaching. They only have our equivalent of the Liturgy of the Word. They don’t have the Eucharist, the Mass, etc. Luther threw all that out when he split from the Church.

I entirely disagree with this sentiment.

 

[Young_Thinker]

This is quite false.! My grandfather was a Southern Baptist, and he was ordained, and a preacher of several small congregations in SW Missouri, and Oklahoma, and he had a bachelors degree, a M.Div from William Jewel seminary, and PhD in Ministry from Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Likewise my Uncle was at one time an ordained Baptist minister, and he likewise had an M.Div from William Jewel seminary.

All right, but, like others have said, ordination for a Baptist has a somewhat different meaning than for a Catholic. Forgive me for any confusion. Also, I did not say that Protestant preachers are never formally well-educated. I appreciate your enthusiasm, though.

 

[HereticalTheist]

For one thing, it is not that difficult to acquire a minister’s license(I know of a multiple divorcee’ who apparently did not go to college yet acquired one), and Baptist preachers are not ordained. Anyway, I think that Protestants more often than not just attend a bible-college for an undergradute degree. It seems that a Protestant minister having a doctorate in theology is the exception rather than the norm. Even Billy Graham only has a substantive bachelor’s degree. Catholic priests, on the other hand, are required to have at least a Master of Divinity. Also “Low” Protestants use very little ceremony, so they have to make sure that their sermons are interesting.

Due respect Young Thinker…but your post here strongly implies that you find the level of education amongst protestant ministers in general and Baptist ministers in particular to be quite lacking.

Speaking from experience I can tell you this is not so. They are often quite well educated.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Due respect Young Thinker…but your post here strongly implies that you find the level of education amongst protestant ministers in general and Baptist ministers in particular to be quite lacking.

Speaking from experience I can tell you this is not so. They are often quite well educated.

If you say so.

 

[HereticalTheist]

If you say so.

What do you mean…if I say so? I’m reporting facts to you? Do you deny them? Does my grandfather’s doctoral study not pass your personal muster for education? What’s your own level of theological education? You hold any advanced degrees in ministry or theology? I don’t. Your statement was out of line, and uninformed. full stop. How am i supposed to take it when people insult my family (intentionally albeit indirectly)? Or did you not stop to think that these are actual people with actual families that you are painting your brush?

 

[Ceil-1]

Good preaching is a gift of the Holy Spirit. All the good preachers I have heard, tend to be more orthodox and devout in their personal lives, than those who are not good at the homilies.

 

[Drawmack]

Surely not from the Protestant pastors.

Actually, its the Catholics that believe their Pastors are much better educated … so they tell me.

It would be interesting to see the actual data, of average religious training of Catholic vs Protestant pastor. Serve it up, if its available. Links ??

I am not the one who made the claim. Why are you asking me for data to support your claim? Provide proof of your claim or retract it and don’t make it in the future.

 

[Drawmack]

For one thing, it is not that difficult to acquire a minister’s license(I know of a multiple divorcee’ who apparently did not go to college yet acquired one), and Baptist preachers are not ordained. Anyway, I think that Protestants more often than not just attend a bible-college for an undergradute degree. It seems that a Protestant minister having a doctorate in theology is the exception rather than the norm. Even Billy Graham only has a substantive bachelor’s degree. Catholic priests, on the other hand, are required to have at least a Master of Divinity. Also “Low” Protestants use very little ceremony, so they have to make sure that their sermons are interesting.

You make a lot of statements here – but you don’t substantiate any of them. Provide proof or retract.

 

[Drawmack]

While I don’t have a link for that, I wanted to share this regarding certain Protestant ministers.

There is a church close to my parents’ home and the pastor went “visiting” in the neighborhood to drum up business. When my mom asked about his training/education/ordination, he told her that God ordained him and he was taught by “his former pastor”, who had retired. I’m sure this is not an isolated circumstance, either.

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. You do not provide the denomination, or the age of the pastor in question. These are both important factors to consider. You also do not provide information on where he is from and how populace that area is in his particular denomination which is another important factor.

I either want to see a verified and validated study stating that Catholic priests average a higher level of education than Protestant ministers or I want people to stop purporting that as a fact.

 

[Young_Thinker]

You make a lot of statements here – but you don’t substantiate any of them. Provide proof or retract.

I am sorry; I often draw my facts from personal experience(i.e. I attended a non-denominational church while in childhood) and the like, but one can read about Baptist ordination, Holy Orders, or Billy Graham in almost any encyclopedia(including Wikipedia). And most seminaries have websites.

 

[Drawmack]

When Catholics refer to someone being “ordained” we mean that they received the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Since Baptists do not have Apostolic Succession, they cannot received the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

So, while we and the Baptists may use the same word (ordained), it is not the same thing.

Catholics acknowledge two valid Sacraments in the Baptist denomination. Baptism and Matrimony. The others require Apostolic Succession.

If this is really what was the intended meaning of the original poster then the statement means nothing as fare as education is concerned. So either you are incorrect on the original poster’s intent or the original poster is too stupid to have a conversation.

 

[Drawmack]

Let me try again. Read slowly, if you must, and as many times as it takes.

I clearly showed that the word “ordained” means something different to Catholics than to Baptists. To Catholics, this means receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders. To Baptists, it does not, nor can it, since they cannot receive Holy Orders.

When Young Thinker said Baptist preachers are ‘not ordained’ I believe he was referring to “ordained” in the Catholic understanding of the word. If so, he was correct.

Scooby,

Young Thinker was claiming that Baptist ministers are not ordained to make the point that it is easier for them to be less educated because pretty much anyone can go from layman to pastor since there is no ordination among the Baptists. Therefore, what Young Thinker said is patently false. It doesn’t matter if Catholics wish to define words differently than the rest of the world or not.

 

[Drawmack]

All right, but, like others have said, ordination for a Baptist has a somewhat different meaning than for a Catholic. Forgive me for any confusion. Also, I did not say that Protestant preachers are never formally well-educated. I appreciate your enthusiasm, though.

You were talking about Protestant ministers being less educated Catholic priests. In that post you claimed that Baptist (and only Baptist) preachers are not ordained as support for your claim that Protestant ministers are less educated than Catholic priests. So, if by ordination you really didn’t mean in the more generic sense (that the body of the church in question verifies their education and understanding) then why did you talk of it in a post about education levels of Protestant ministers vs. Catholic priests and why did you specifically say that Baptists are not ordained when using the rubrics of Holy Orders no Protestant is ordained? Stop back peddling and admit what you really meant.

 

[Drawmack]

I am sorry; I often draw my facts from personal experience(i.e. I attended a non-denominational church while in childhood) and the like, but one can read about Baptist ordination, Holy Orders, or Billy Graham in almost any encyclopedia(including Wikipedia). And most seminaries have websites.

Yes; you made one sustantive claim and about 10 unsubstantive claims. Either substantiate your claims or stop making them. It’s that simple!

 

[JustaServant]

I actually go to have my heart uplifted in music and homily too. God is capable of doing it all?

Of course God is capable of doing both. But I spent twenty years across the Tiber, hearing great preaching and uplifting music. Niether give the Christian what he recieves in the Eucharist.

 

[JustaServant]

The problem is the whole structure of what many fundamentalist/evangelical churches are based on.
The centerpiece of worship is a pulpit for a man. And if that man and his flock are immature emotionally, it’s inevitable that man-worship occurs.
The priest is not the center of worship in the Catholic Church. When the priest approaches the altar, the Tabernacle is there with the Eucharist. Jesus is the center of worship, The priest is an instrument.
But in fundamentalism/evangelicalism, the pulpit is in the center of the church. Oh yes, they will say 'its God we worship and is taught from the Bible. To even suggest that Communion is the center of worship turns the fundamentalist into a tailspin. Yet it is the ONE worship COMMAND Jesus gave to His Church, not preaching. A good homily or sermon is important, but that is not the centerpiece of worship.
When a pulpit is the center, for a man who gives his ‘interpretation’ of the Bible, its inevitable he is puffed up with pride. He is a little messiah with followers, and he begins to believe he is invincible.
Take that pulpit down, and it must be replaced with something.
I’ve never had a desire to return to that pulpit because I found something greater than a pulpit: the Lord Jesus Christ feeding me with Himself.

 

[theoldman]

For one thing, it is not that difficult to acquire a minister’s license(I know of a multiple divorcee’ who apparently did not go to college yet acquired one), and Baptist preachers are not ordained. Anyway, I think that Protestants more often than not just attend a bible-college for an undergradute degree. It seems that a Protestant minister having a doctorate in theology is the exception rather than the norm. Even Billy Graham only has a substantive bachelor’s degree. Catholic priests, on the other hand, are required to have at least a Master of Divinity. Also “Low” Protestants use very little ceremony, so they have to make sure that their sermons are interesting.

Baptist preachers are ordained, There are ordaination councels in the Baptist faith. Many protestant Pastors have four years of collage plus seminary. And many have doctorites.