Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[Catholic80]

I’d like to comment on this.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"Definition of homophobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals "

“Definition of aversion - a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it”

I have read hundreds of posts here from Catholic’s regarding homosexuals which fit the definition of “aversion”. Its probably difficult to communicate love and acceptance to gays and lesbians when words like perversion, disordered, sinful, disgusting and child abuse are included in the dialog.

Given the definition of aversion and how it relates to the word homophobia, I have to admit that in my experience I would classify most of the people I know personally who are deeply opposed to gay marriage as “homophobes”.

Do you not feel repugnance or have an aversion when you hear a story of a small child who has been sexually abused?

Most people would refer to a pedophile as a person having a disorder, as having committed a sin, having committed a disgusting act, having harmed a child…

Just because one is repulsed or has an aversion to an evil act does not mean that they cannot love the person. By being repulsed by sin, we are actually loving the person because we are wanting what is good for them. A person who supports the homosexual act is wanting an evil for that person. In this case, “acceptance” is a subtle form of hating the person because it is wanting an evil for them. We are created to long for what is good and to be repulsed by evil. Due to our fallen nature, things get disordered and we get attached to sin.

If you saw an extremely overweight woman gorging herself on junk food to try and feed her emotional pain, wouldn’t you be disgusted by that? But, at the same time, wouldn’t you want to help her stop this behavior? …to help her heal both her physical body and emotional and spiritual self? …to help her understand that she is beautiful and eternally loved by God… that indulging in this behavior, as much as she feels she needs it, is only hurting her?

Homosexuality is no different. A person suffering with SSA is indeed suffering. Those who act on it and live a homosexual lifestyle are trying to feed some deep emotional wounds by engaging in harmful behavior. Would you not want to help someone who is suffering in this way?

Being disgusted by their actions is normal and healthy. A phobia is an irrational fear. By being disgusted at the behavior, we are not saying the person is disgusting. To reiterate this point… if a person vomited, it is natural to be repulsed by the vomiting, but the person themselves is not repulsive.

 

[Seeker1961]

The Church has always been consistent in loving the sinner, whether we’re talking about divorce or sodomy or anything else. What are you saying, that you have a problem with that?

As for evidence, if you’re accusing the wrongdoing, the burden of proof is on you. Where’s the evidence that the Church is condemning homosexual people (the individuals), calling them evil, etc., as opposed to condemning the gay lifestyle? Or is it guilty until proven innocent now?

Do you read the threads about homosexuality here at all? While there are some thoughtful and compassionate posters, there are also a fair number who post differently. On other “Christian” forums the language can get even worse.

And again, that language was never used about divorced people, people committing adultery or living together without marriage. These folks have not been accused of being disordered, of being part of an “agenda” to destroy America nor have their choices been framed in any way the same as the choice of gay people to have partners.

There IS a difference and that difference has given those on the outside reason to view the Church’s argument as irrelevant. The total argument for the sacredness of marriage is the way to “win”, but that doesn’t seem to be a direction anyone wants to take.

 

[interestedman]

Where do people get their morals from if not from religion?

Empathy. Society. Their family and upbringing. Religion certainly does not have a monopoly on religion.

 

[interestedman]

Dangerous attitude-if you’re only against pedophilia because of religion then you’re not religious for the right reasons.

People know pedophilia is wrong due to natural law-you don’t need to be religious to see it.

Pedophilia is wrong because there is a victim. A child does not have the mental ability to be able to make choices about who they should have sex with so they are either forced or coerced into it. Natural law is a silly philosophy because if it was so natural than everyone would agree on it.

 

[interestedman]

Sure there’s a valid reason. St. Thomas proved that the God of classical theism exists.

Yeah…not so much. In my opinion philosophy can never really prove anything.

 

[Havard]

Do you read the threads about homosexuality here at all? While there are some thoughtful and compassionate posters, there are also a fair number who post differently. On other “Christian” forums the language can get even worse.

And again, that language was never used about divorced people, people committing adultery or living together without marriage. These folks have not been accused of being disordered, of being part of an “agenda” to destroy America nor have their choices been framed in any way the same as the choice of gay people to have partners.

There IS a difference and that difference has given those on the outside reason to view the Church’s argument as irrelevant. The total argument for the sacredness of marriage is the way to “win”, but that doesn’t seem to be a direction anyone wants to take.

Head down to the Family Life section and see fornication and adultery threads in action. If a person is repentant about it, they get support. But if they are of the “I’m sleeping with my boyfriend, but it’s okay”, they are taken to task at least as much as posters who live and advocate the gay lifestyle. There is no double standard in that regard.

When people advocate sin of any type, they need to be answered loudly and clearly. That doesn’t justify rudeness or uncharitability, but it does justify a strong clarion call response.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’d like to comment on this.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"Definition of homophobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals "

“Definition of aversion - a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it”

I have read hundreds of posts here from Catholic’s regarding homosexuals which fit the definition of “aversion”. Its probably difficult to communicate love and acceptance to gays and lesbians when words like perversion, disordered, sinful, disgusting and child abuse are included in the dialog.

Given the definition of aversion and how it relates to the word homophobia, I have to admit that in my experience I would classify most of the people I know personally who are deeply opposed to gay marriage as “homophobes”.

1. I used the Oxford Dictionary online which gave no second definition; it’s widely argued to be more authoritative. I figure I should mention that but I admit that I’m nitpicking and I’ll move on.
2. Well then apparently you’re either A) Seeing what you expect to see (e.g. if you’re opposed to gay marriage you’re probably a homophobe, so as soon as you see somebody opposed to gay marriage you think “Homophobe!”) or B) You interact with a really bizarre group of people.

It’s pretty much impossible today NOT to know a homosexual person. I know several. So do my friends. Most of us are against gay marriage. None of us are homophobes. None of us see gay people and react to them with loathing. None of us are frightened of gay people.

Let’s stop with the silly labeling.

 

[interestedman]

Not my attitude and i think youre missing the point im making.

If youre not religious, where do you get your morals from?

If you question everything, like what it actually means to be a man or woman, or everyone’s personal view of marriage being different etc, then why cant one use the same logic to pedophilia?

It is indeed a dangerous attitude to have, for those who wish to redefine everything.

PS- I might add that I disagree with your opinion on “being religious for the right reasons.” The Church doesnt say you have to necessarily agree with the rules, only that you have to obey them. You can be unhappy about no premarital sex, but that doesnt matter, so long as you dont engage in premarital sex. If religion is the only reason for certain persons not to commit immoral acts, thats just as good of a reason as any. In fact Id go as far as to say that religion being the only reason not to do something, can be a sign of deeper devotion than avoiding somethig because it just makes sense. Even atheists as you stated dont do certain things, just because it would make sense not to. But when one puts their own will aside and chooses God’s will purely because it is His will, then IMO that means even more.

In my opinion you have to be delusional to put pedophilia and homosexuality in the same category. That would be like putting slavery and having a paid servant into the same category. One of these things is forced on one person and the other is a willful agreement between two adults.

You should advocate for maids being outlawed because they must be the same thing as slaves in your eyes.

 

[djames99]

So who’s debating? And who wants to “win” what only this temporary world can provide?.

I see life savers being tossed out and a huge number grabbing. Good news all around. Looks like there’s a lot of people who want to see their loved ones, babies,children mothers, fathers after this life. They’ll be judging and instructing angels, and see the Beatific vision of God, and explore the universe and heaven in all it’s wonder, and a countless other things they can do. The most happiness they experienced on this planet will pale by comparison to what they will experience.

They want to save themselves and believe God that HS is a trick, who’s to blame them, besides, they know their life here is only temporary, that they are spirits first in a natural envelope with a job to do God’s work. And most wonderfully!, the great miracle of our time!, our Mother of mothers as provided a means to uncover the deception. They have found out it is, and wish others to join in their devotion to the Virgin Mary.

And what do you offer that can compare to eternal life and happiness?

 

[interestedman]

A person suffering with SSA is indeed suffering. Those who act on it and live a homosexual lifestyle are trying to feed some deep emotional wounds by engaging in harmful behavior. Would you not want to help someone who is suffering in this way?

Being disgusted by their actions is normal and healthy.

Wow. I don’t even know how to respond. I am sure that Elton John, Ellen, Neil Patrick Harris, etc. are all suffering and are just trying to feed some deep emotional wounds. Why does the whole of the psychology field disagree with this? I will answer…because this line of thinking is absolute biased garbage.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Pedophilia is wrong because there is a victim. A child does not have the mental ability to be able to make choices about who they should have sex with so they are either forced or coerced into it. Natural law is a silly philosophy because if it was so natural than everyone would agree on it.

Sigh…you have no idea what natural law theory actually is, do you?

Try reading the section on it in the Summa Theologica. If you think you can debunk a system of moral ethics that was the accepted system in the west for about 1000 years or so with a single short sentence then rest assured, YOU’RE the one at fault, not the theory.

 

[interestedman]

So who’s debating?

I see life savers being tossed out and a huge number grabbing. Good news all around. Looks like there’s a lot of people who want to see their loved ones, babies,children mothers, fathers after this life. They’ll be judging and instructing angels, and see the Beatific vision of God, and explore the universe and heaven in all it’s wonder, and a countless other things they can do. The most happiness they experienced on this planet will pale by comparison to what they will experience.

They want to save themselves and believe God that HS is a trick, who’s to blame them, besides, they know their life here is only temporary, that they are spirits first in a natural envelope with a job to do God’s work. And most wonderfully!, the great miracle of our time!, our mother of Mothers as provided a means to uncover the deception. They have found out it is, and wish others to join in their devotion to the Virgin Mary.

And what do you offer that can compare to eternal life and happiness?

I would love to have eternal life and happiness. I just don’t believe in it because logic and reason tells me otherwise.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Not my attitude and i think youre missing the point im making.

If youre not religious, where do you get your morals from?

If you question everything, like what it actually means to be a man or woman, or everyone’s personal view of marriage being different etc, then why cant one use the same logic to pedophilia?

It is indeed a dangerous attitude to have, for those who wish to redefine everything.

PS- I might add that I disagree with your opinion on “being religious for the right reasons.” The Church doesnt say you have to necessarily agree with the rules, only that you have to obey them. You can be unhappy about no premarital sex, but that doesnt matter, so long as you dont engage in premarital sex. If religion is the only reason for certain persons not to commit immoral acts, thats just as good of a reason as any. In fact Id go as far as to say that religion being the only reason not to do something, can be a sign of deeper devotion than avoiding somethig because it just makes sense. Even atheists as you stated dont do certain things, just because it would make sense not to. But when one puts their own will aside and chooses God’s will purely because it is His will, then IMO that means even more.

So wait-you’re saying that the man who looks at murder and runs to stop it because he knows murder is wrong is less heroic than somebody who sees it and mutters, “Oh, all right…I really don’t care, but I suppose my religion DOES say murder is bad, soooo…”

You’re right, we’ll have to disagree, because I think God takes your intentions into account.

 

[interestedman]

Sigh…you have no idea what natural law theory actually is, do you?

Try reading the section on it in the Summa Theologica. If you think you can debunk a system of moral ethics that was the accepted system in the west for about 1000 years or so with a single short sentence then rest assured, YOU’RE the one at fault, not the theory.

Was slavery widely accepted as morally acceptable during that 1,000 years?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Pedophilia is wrong because there is a victim. A child does not have the mental ability to be able to make choices about who they should have sex with so they are either forced or coerced into it.

Okay, why does there being a victim make it wrong? Is there an objective moral code that you can use to make me believe this view?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Was slavery widely accepted as morally acceptable during that 1,000 years?

Wow! TWO sentences! Now I guess you’ve totally trashed that theory!

Seriously, learn about it then try and argue against. Making silly statements like this isn’t helping your case.

 

[fix]

I would love to have eternal life and happiness. I just don’t believe in it because logic and reason tells me otherwise.

You think consent trumps moral truth and that is logical and reasonable?

 

[fix]

Was slavery widely accepted as morally acceptable during that 1,000 years?

Is moral truth determined by majority opinion?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Now a quick serious response to the slavery question: When did I ever imply that natural law prevented people from doing horrible things to each other? All it does is allow us to discern between what’s right and what’s wrong. It doesn’t stop us from doing wrong, nor does it stop people from having their minds clouded by greed and fear (greed for cheap labor and fear that non-white races might perhaps be superior).

 

[Havard]

I would love to have eternal life and happiness. I just don’t believe in it because logic and reason tells me otherwise.

If that’s your belief, that’s your belief… but then similarly, you should be opposed to the idea of “falling in love”, as it’s not reasonable or logical either.