Why Couldn't the Universe Exist Without a Cause?

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In his “An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding”, David Hume wrote this as one of his premises concerning his reflections on “cause and effect”:

“All the objects of human reason or enquiry may naturally be divided into two kinds, to wit, Relations of Ideas, and Matters of Fact. Of the first kind are the sciences of Geometry, Algebra, and Arithmetic; and in short, every affirmation which is either intuitively or demonstratively certain. That the square of the hypothenuse is equal to the square of the two sides, is a proposition which expresses a relation between these figures. That three times five is equal to the half of thirty, expresses a relation between these numbers. Propositions of this kind are discoverable by the mere operation of thought, without dependence on what is anywhere existent in the universe. Though there never were a circle or triangle in nature, the truths demonstrated by Euclid would for ever retain their certainty and evidence.”

“Matters of fact, which are the second objects of human reason, are not ascertained in the same manner; nor is our evidence of their truth, however great, of a like nature with the foregoing. The contrary of every matter of fact is still possible; because it can never imply a contradiction, and is conceived by the mind with the same facility and distinctness, as if ever so conformable to reality. That the sun will not rise tomorrow is no less intelligible a proposition, and implies no more contradiction than the affirmation, that it will rise. We should in vain, therefore, attempt to demonstrate its falsehood. Were it demonstratively false, it would imply a contradiction, and could never be distinctly conceived by the mind.”

“It may, therefore, be a subject worthy of curiosity, to enquire what is the nature of that evidence which assures us of any real existence and matter of fact, beyond the present testimony of our senses, or the records of our memory.”


Is this distinction between “matters of fact” and “relations of ideas” itself a matter of fact or a relation of ideas? Or is it both at the same time? There was Hume’s mind and its contents; and Hume might have thought that those contents could have only two sources: either they were produced by his mind (or they constituted his mind), or they came from somewhere else. Berkeley had established a similar distinction, noticing that some of his “ideas” follow certain order independently of his wishes and some others that do not follow an evident order or do not follow any order at all, but which obey his wishes.

But again, is this distinction a matter of fact or a relation of ideas? Or is it both simultaneously? Or is it an element of a third class of those contents of Hume’s mind?
Hume realizes that his realm of impressions and ideas is already structured, and then he comes to think that there must be some fundamental elements behind such structures. He calls those elements “simple ideas”.

And how do we compose those structures starting from simple ideas? He says it is by “association”. Therefore, there must be some principles of association.

But what is this “association”? Is it an spontaneous activity of the “understanding” which operates upon its “simple ideas”? Or is it an effect produced by “external” agents on the “understanding”?

There is obviously at least another option concerning the structured realm of impressions and ideas: structures are elemental, and “simple ideas” are just an unnecessary postulate of the “understanding”. However, Hume did not explore this alternative. At any rate, if there is another possible option for the structured nature of the realm of impressions and ideas and it is not contradictory, Hume’s doctrine is not a “relation of ideas” and, therefore, does not possess the characteristics of necessity that “relations of ideas” have.
 
Indeed, so your idea of us “reasoning together” boils down to you completely ignoring my on-topic relevant points in order to repeat your usual threats? :rolleyes:
No, Taffy.

Not a threat. Never a threat. I want you to be here.

It is a friendly piece of advice that I hope you take.

I will be watching. 🙂
 
Miracles are evidence of God’s existence.
The question is: “what is the evidence for a miracle”? To say that “event X must be a miracle presupposes that we have full, complete, total knowledge of all the laws of nature”. Which we don’t. All you can say that we don’t have an explanation. Nothing more.
The real hypocrite is the one who pretends to have better judgment than the one he judges, namely God.
But I do not “pretend” that I know better than God. I don’t judge God, since I don’t even believe in God. I only judge YOU and the other apologists, because you present illogical and irrational arguments.
By the way, are you going to answer my earlier question? What conclusion did you draw?

This is going to be interesting if you dare to answer the question. :rolleyes:
Are you kidding? I have answered that question before, many times. But if you missed it, here comes again. The conclusion is: “either there is no God, or if exists, he is not benevolent”.
 
But not making constructive, on-topic responses?
Oh, *all *my responses are constructive and on topic, Taffy.

To wit: to assert that the universe is eternal is to be a science-denier.

To say that the universe began to exist means that it has a cause.
Unless you can tell us of any single thing, ever in the entirety of human existence, that has come to exist without a cause.

The trump card of the Believer is this: why is there something rather than nothing.

Atheism has no answer for this.

QED
#constructive
#ontopic
 
Unless you can tell us of any single thing, ever in the entirety of human existence, that has come to exist without a cause.
Wasn’t this answered ages ago? Virtual particles appear and disappear without cause (and the name is a misnomer…they aren’t virtual, they are experimentally proved to be real). pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10/quantum-foam-virtual-particles-and-other-curiosities/

Now please don’t say that it’s just that we don’t know the cause yet. Other people use the same argument for other matters and you reject it. So let’s be consistent.

Oh, and radioactive decay, although not random, has no cause. Although that is more transformation rather than creation.
 
Hume realizes that his realm of impressions and ideas is already structured, and then he comes to think that there must be some fundamental elements behind such structures. He calls those elements “simple ideas”.

And how do we compose those structures starting from simple ideas? He says it is by “association”. Therefore, there must be some principles of association.

But what is this “association”? Is it an spontaneous activity of the “understanding” which operates upon its “simple ideas”? Or is it an effect produced by “external” agents on the “understanding”?

There is obviously at least another option concerning the structured realm of impressions and ideas: structures are elemental, and “simple ideas” are just an unnecessary postulate of the “understanding”. However, Hume did not explore this alternative. At any rate, if there is another possible option for the structured nature of the realm of impressions and ideas and it is not contradictory, Hume’s doctrine is not a “relation of ideas” and, therefore, does not possess the characteristics of necessity that “relations of ideas” have.
So, what are the principles of association, according to Hume? He writes the following:

*“It is evident that there is a principle of connexion between the different thoughts or ideas of the mind, and that, in their appearance to the memory or imagination, they introduce each other with a certain degree of method and regularity. In our more serious thinking or discourse this is so observable that any particular thought, which breaks in upon the regular tract or chain of ideas, is immediately remarked and rejected. And even in our wildest and most wandering reveries, nay in our very dreams, we shall find, if we reflect, that the imagination ran not altogether at adventures, but that there was still a connexion upheld among the different ideas, which succeeded each other. Were the loosest and freest conversation to be transcribed, there would immediately be observed something which connected it in all its transitions. Or where this is wanting, the person who broke the thread of discourse might still inform you, that there had secretly revolved in his mind a succession of thought, which had gradually led him from the subject of conversation. Among different languages, even where we cannot suspect the least connexion or communication, it is found, that the words, expressive of ideas, the most compounded, do yet nearly correspond to each other: a certain proof that the simple ideas, comprehended in the compound ones, were bound together by some universal principle, which had an equal influence on all mankind.”

“Though it be too obvious to escape observation, that different ideas are connected together; I do not find that any philosopher has attempted to enumerate or class all the principles of association; a subject, however, that seems worthy of curiosity. To me, there appear to be only three principles of connexion among ideas, namely, Resemblance, Contiguity in time or place, and Cause or Effect.”

“That these principles serve to connect ideas will not, I believe, be much doubted. A picture naturally leads our thoughts to the original: the mention of one apartment in a building naturally introduces an enquiry or discourse concerning the others: and if we think of a wound, we can scarcely forbear reflecting on the pain which follows it. But that this enumeration is complete, and that there are no other principles of association except these, may be difficult to prove to the satisfaction of the reader, or even to a man’s own satisfaction. All we can do, in such cases, is to run over several instances, and examine carefully the principle which binds the different thoughts to each other, never stopping till we render the principle as general as possible. The more instances we examine, and the more care we employ, the more assurance shall we acquire, that the enumeration, which we form from the whole, is complete and entire.”*

Indeed, it would be very difficult to prove that Resemblance, Contiguity, and Cause and Effect are the complete list of the principles of association. How could we, for instance, based only on those principles, build the complex idea of Pythagoras’ theorem? How could we build Galileo’s principle? Hume was very smart when he admitted that he could not prove the completeness of his list.

But let’s look at the details: simple ideas are continually there, at least hypothetically, in our understanding, isolated from each other. Those simple ideas are what Hume calls “impressions”, and are distinguished from those other “perceptions” that Hume calls “ideas” in that they are more “lively”. But, what does “lively” mean? Does it mean that while impressions produce strong effects on us (sensations, feelings, emotions…), ideas produce just dull effects? If simple ideas are, by themselves, isolated from each other, how is it that they can affect us?

Anyway, Hume suggests that we continually make associations between the simple ideas that emerge in our conscience. So, we produce complex ideas; we are the cause of complex ideas.… But, isn’t this an indication that “Cause and effect” is a peculiar principle of association which has to be distinguished from Resemblance and Contiguity, because it is not only an epistemological principle, but an ontological one: When our “understanding” associates ideas (either simple or complex already) by Resemblance or Contiguity, isn’t “Cause and effect” immanent there? Yes, it is there, precisely because our “understanding” is producing the complex ideas.
 
Wasn’t this answered ages ago? Virtual particles appear and disappear without cause (and the name is a misnomer…they aren’t virtual, they are experimentally proved to be real). pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10/quantum-foam-virtual-particles-and-other-curiosities/

Now please don’t say that it’s just that we don’t know the cause yet. Other people use the same argument for other matters and you reject it. So let’s be consistent.

Oh, and radioactive decay, although not random, has no cause. Although that is more transformation rather than creation.
Is not the former caused by fluctuations in the quantum foam and the latter due to unstable nuclei?
 
Is not the former caused by fluctuations in the quantum foam and the latter due to unstable nuclei?
The appearance and disappearance of virtual particles is part of the fluctuation itself. It’s the ‘foam’ in ‘quantum foam’.

And the nuclei being unstable is the reason why it decays but there appears to be no specific cause for why it emits an alpha particle or any other particle at any given moment.
 
Are you kidding? I have answered that question before, many times. But if you missed it, here comes again. The conclusion is: “either there is no God, or if exists, he is not benevolent”.
So far as I know, you have never offered proof that there is no God. That’s good, because of course it cannot be done.

That there is no God cannot be an inference drawn from the possibillity that God is malevolent with suffering children.

The only inference you could possibly draw from the existence of suffering children is that God is malevolent.

Your secondary inference is that we Christians must endorse this malevolent God.

But we do not accept that God is malevolent toward suffering children. We believe that suffering children survive this life, and with the mercy of God, are welcomed into a better and everlasting life.

With your Nogod, suffering children just die and that’s just too bad because you can’t blame it on God since he doesn’t exist. Your God is indifferent to the suffering of children and offers no compensation at the end of the trail.

Your Nogod is mean, indifferent, or cruel and has no interest in mercy or justice.
 
Wasn’t this answered ages ago? Virtual particles appear and disappear without cause (and the name is a misnomer…they aren’t virtual, they are experimentally proved to be real). pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10/quantum-foam-virtual-particles-and-other-curiosities/
You are correct. This was answered–sliced, diced, and put to rest ages ago.

“Something coming from nothing” only happens when you guys try to re-define “nothing” to “something, like a low-level quantum field”.
Now please don’t say that it’s just that we don’t know the cause yet. Other people use the same argument for other matters and you reject it. So let’s be consistent.
Oh, yes. I am all about consistency. 👍
Oh, and radioactive decay, although not random, has no cause. Although that is more transformation rather than creation.
Egg-zactly.

You can’t get something from nothing.

QED.
 
Wasn’t this answered ages ago? Virtual particles appear and disappear without cause (and the name is a misnomer…they aren’t virtual, they are experimentally proved to be real). pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10/quantum-foam-virtual-particles-and-other-curiosities/

Now please don’t say that it’s just that we don’t know the cause yet. Other people use the same argument for other matters and you reject it. So let’s be consistent.

Oh, and radioactive decay, although not random, has no cause. Although that is more transformation rather than creation.
Oh, and did you see what your article asserted:

“While the Big Bang theory explains how the universe has expanded and cooled since it began,”…

One more time, this time with my emphasis.

While the Big Bang theory explains how the universe has expanded and cooled since it began,

Began.

The universe began to exist.

Again, one has to be a science denier to assert that the universe is eternal.

QED.

Again.

😃
 
So far as I know, you have never offered proof that there is no God. That’s good, because of course it cannot be done.
Yes, it can. Just like I can prove that “married bachelors” do not exist.
That there is no God cannot be an inference drawn from the possibillity that God is malevolent with suffering children.

The only inference you could possibly draw from the existence of suffering children is that God is malevolent.
It was an “either, or” type of utterance.
Your secondary inference is that we Christians must endorse this malevolent God.
I sad NOTHING about “must endorse”. You endorse whatever you want. It only reflects on you.
But we do not accept that God is malevolent toward suffering children. We believe that suffering children survive this life, and with the mercy of God, are welcomed into a better and everlasting life.
Your belief is irrelevant. You cannot prove that each and every suffering child WILL be offered that “everlasting” life. And even if it could be proven, allowing your child to suffer cannot be “undone” by giving that child a lollipop… or even a million of them. No amount of “bliss” can retroactively justify allowing suffering.
With your Nogod, suffering children just die and that’s just too bad because you can’t blame it on God since he doesn’t exist. Your God is indifferent to the suffering of children and offers no compensation at the end of the trail.

Your Nogod is mean, indifferent, or cruel and has no interest in mercy or justice.
If something does not exist, it cannot be mean, indifferent or cruel. At the very least, please don’t make such elementary errors. On second thought, keep on making them. I would hate to see you stop posting. Your posts have an “immense” entertaining value. Louis C. K. does not even come close.
 
Wasn’t this answered ages ago?
Well, no, actually. It was claimed to have been answered “ages ago,” but the answer has been shown to lack any kind of compelling force.

The responses to the “answer” – by philosopher David Albert – here…
nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/a-universe-from-nothing-by-lawrence-m-krauss.html?_r=3

…and – by astrophysicist Luke Barnes – here…

letterstonature.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/of-nothing/
…and here…
letterstonature.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/more-sweet-nothings/

…are far more thoughtful and convincing.

Hopefully, Brad we won’t see this brought up again as if these refutations were never made available to you.

They now have been. No more rehashing the hash, so to speak.
 
You are correct. This was answered–sliced, diced, and put to rest ages ago.

“Something coming from nothing” only happens when you guys try to re-define “nothing” to “something, like a low-level quantum field”.

Oh, yes. I am all about consistency. 👍

Egg-zactly.

You can’t get something from nothing.
That’s not what you asked.
 
Well, no, actually.
Don’t you guys actually read posts? It appears that you are so keen to get your version of an answer in that it doesn’t seem to have to relate to the question asked

The hell with this. I’m going fishing.
 
Your belief is irrelevant. You cannot prove that each and every suffering child WILL be offered that “everlasting” life.
Your argument depends entirely upon an equivalence between evil and suffering in order for the existence of suffering to count against the existence of omnipotent omnibenevolence.

Suffering, by itself, is not antithetical to goodness. It is not the suffering of a being that makes them evil, therefore it cannot be the suffering of any created things or the allowance of that suffering that can possibly be what it is that counts against omnibenevolence.

What you need to do to complete your argument is to demonstrate precisely what constitutes “evil” and demonstrate that, by definition, such “evil” is incompatible with ultimate and absolute Goodness.

This, too, has been rehashed many times in these forums and by philosophers. The accepted consensus is that only the existence of provably gratuitous evil can possibly count against the existence of God.

Now the problem for you is that you would also have to demonstrate that autonomous moral agency is possible without necessarily entailing at least the logical possibility of immoral (i.e., evil) choices. I wouldn’t suppose that you could do that.

Ergo, the argument would further undermine yours.

For autonomous moral agency to exist, moral agents must be free to make good or evil choices. Without autonomous moral agency there can be no moral responsibility.
Without the possibility of making autonomous moral choices between good and alternative – including evil – options, moral agency and moral responsibility could not exist.
Human beings are responsible and autonomous moral agents, therefore it must be that good and evil choices are, at least, logically possible.
 
Your argument depends entirely upon an equivalence between evil and suffering in order for the existence of suffering to count against the existence of omnipotent omnibenevolence.
Only unnecessary, gratuitous suffering is evil. But with God’s omnipotence there can be no gratuitous suffering. The suffering is always contingent upon the available technology. With the infinitely “advanced” technology of God, there can be NO necessary suffering.
What you need to do to complete your argument is to demonstrate precisely what constitutes “evil” and demonstrate that, by definition, such “evil” is incompatible with ultimate and absolute Goodness.
Not at all. We rely on the duck principle. If it looks like unnecessary suffering, if there is no explanation why that suffering is “necessary” (especially in the light of God’s omnipotence) then the suffering WAS unnecessary - and as such “evil”.
Now the problem for you is that you would also have to demonstrate that autonomous moral agency is possible without necessarily entailing at least the logical possibility of immoral (i.e., evil) choices. I wouldn’t suppose that you could do that.
Logical possibility does not entail actual existence.
For autonomous moral agency to exist, moral agents must be free to make good or evil choices. Without autonomous moral agency there can be no moral responsibility.
Without the possibility of making autonomous moral choices between good and alternative – including evil – options, moral agency and moral responsibility could not exist.
Human beings are responsible and autonomous moral agents, therefore it must be that good and evil choices are, at least, logically possible.
Ah, but you simply “glossed over” about WHAT is an immoral or evil choice. (There are lots of actions which you consider immoral or evil which are perfectly fine for the rational crowd.)

So I will help you. I can give an example of an immoral or evil action - in YOUR eye, which can safely be allowed. It is supposed to be the greatest “evil” to blaspheme against the holy spirit. THAT freedom is more than sufficient to make us “moral agents”. There is no need for the freedom to commit atrocities against other humans. So you can have the “best of all worlds”. No atrocities against others, even pre-conditioning everyone to be kind and helpful toward others, and still be able to commit “morally wrong, or evil” actions. To be a “free agent” it is not necessary to allow ALL sorts of evil actions. One is sufficient, and blasphemy more that fulfills that role.
 
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