Why Did God Create Man and the Demons if He Knew They Would Disobey Him?

[NM505StKate]

The first sin was eating the fruit that God said not to eat. Maybe the fruit is an analogy. The point being, God said don’t do something or else there is a serious consequence, and they disobeyed God anyway…and were thrown out of the garden as well as other negative consequences for their disobedience. THAT was the first sin. Up to that time they were perfect human beings. As a result of that first sin, they couldn’t pass on their original perfection to all the generations that followed. After all , one can’t pass on to their family what they lost. Only what they themselves have to give.

Okay maybe we are missing each other. The Jewish people believe the first sin was Cain killing Abel. The eating of the fruit means nothing to them. That was my point. My other point was why have a tree of eternal life around? Seeing that if they would not have eating from the tree of knowledge they would have eternal life. Maybe they were meant to die anyway.

Cain killing Abel came AFTER A& E were thrown out of the garden for disobeying God. Cain committed the first murder, A & E committed the first sin, the original sin…

Read above.

God didn’t force the angels nor A&E to disobey. Nor does He cause or force ANYONE to sin. We all have free will. A & E as well as the angels who failed, could have chosen to obey. Instead they chose to disobey. THAT’S what free will is all about. All have choices. And during the test, A & E nor the angels were in a consequence free reality, nor are we in a consequence free reality while we are being tested.

My point is Yahweh knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and fail the test. God is all knowing after all correct? So either we are predestined on going to certain afterworld places because god already knows and created people that way or god isn’t all knowing

Yet 2/3 of the angels passed the test.

The fact !/3 failed is NOT because God wanted it that way, THE angels who failed, freely chose what they did, and God allowed the consequences to take place.

But Yahweh already knew they would fall. God has odd emotions for a being that is supposedly beyond human understanding. Seems more to me as human emotions and justification to explain things.

If God forced them to fail which He didn’t, and they had no choice in the matter which they did, then their will wasn’t free which it was, And GOD wasn’t all love, which He is.

If you are interested, here’s what the Catechism says on “free will” ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=free+will&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Again Yahweh already knows who will fail. There isn’t any surprise or amazement to Yahweh because all knowing means all knowing. So, to me, Yahweh does create people to be eternally tortured, especially if it is all knowing. What is hat verse “For I already knew you in the womb”.

 

[tamedlion]

Did he? All we have is stories that were written down far after the fact. I agree that if I love someone as much as I love myself I would not want to torture them, in fact I would never have made a place of eternal torture.

How would you know that the effort that you made throughout your life paid off once you entered into heaven if there were no punishment? Who gets the trophy at the super bowl?

 

[James248]

Did he? All we have is stories that were written down far after the fact. I agree that if I love someone as much as I love myself I would not want to torture them, in fact I would never have made a place of eternal torture.

Yep. He did. Still the accuracy of the Bible is another debate entirely.

If your kid disobeyed you continually you’d kick him out, wouldn’t you? The kid would have to fend for himself.

 

[NM505StKate]

How would you know that the effort that you made throughout your life paid off once you entered into heaven if there were no punishment? Who gets the trophy at the super bowl?

Why does there have to be punishment? I know I did good in my life by the people I have helped and the things I have done. There is hard work which has its own reward.

 

[NM505StKate]

Yep. He did. Still the accuracy of the Bible is another debate entirely.

If your kid disobeyed you continually you’d kick him out, wouldn’t you? The kid would have to fend for himself.

No I wouldn’t. That is a sick thing to even think. Get them help or something sure but out and out kicking them out, no way.

 

[James248]

No I wouldn’t. That is a sick thing to even think. Get them help or something sure but out and out kicking them out, no way.

Yep. That is why you cannot understand God. Although He is a Loving Father, His Love cannot tolerate disobedience. If we request to be let alone and that we go our own way, He will let us be free from all His “Thou shalt nots.”

 

[NM505StKate]

Yep. That is why you cannot understand God. Although He is a Loving Father, His Love cannot tolerate disobedience. If we request to be let alone and that we go our own way, He will let us be free from all His “Thou shalt nots.”

So I have more empathy than Yahweh? Cool! Oh and you can not like disobedience but would you throw the baby out with the bath water?

 

[tamedlion]

Why does there have to be punishment? I know I did good in my life by the people I have helped and the things I have done. There is hard work which has its own reward.

The answer is already given. Would you be ok if some one kill, let’s say your parents, and get away with it? There is either reward or punishment in order for there to be justice. Good or hard works is not a reward, it’s what we are called to do. Most of the time, we do very little of it.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Did he? All we have is stories that were written down far after the fact. I agree that if I love someone as much as I love myself I would not want to torture them,

When Jesus spent his time on earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’

in fact I would never have made a place of eternal torture.

But what if someone condemned you to death and nailed you to a cross, could you still love them as you love yourself?

We may never truly understand God, but I believe he is a God of mercy and forgiveness.

 

[NM505StKate]

The answer is already given. Would you be ok if some one kill, let’s say your parents, and get away with it? There is either reward or punishment in order for there to be justice. Good or hard works is not a reward, it’s what we are called to do. Most of the time, we do very little of it.

If someone were to do that then yes they have to be punished according to the current laws. Thing is that is a finite punishment for a finite crime. To me there is no finite crime that is deserving of infinite punishment. You may not see good works as a reward but I do. Knowing I helped a friend of was a shoulder when someone needed it is more joyful that doing any deed to get into an imagined paradise.

 

[NM505StKate]

When Jesus spent his time on earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’

Have to disagree. We have no idea what Yeshua said. The closest writings are from Psaul and they mentioned none of Yeshua’s words. Mark, the first of the gospels, was written a solid 30+ years after the events were supposed to happen. John over 70+ years. To being a glimpse into someone who brought about a new faith the stories can be exaggerated in what this person could do and what this person said.

But what if someone condemned you to death and nailed you to a cross, could you still love them as you love yourself?

We may never truly understand God, but I believe he is a God of mercy and forgiveness.

Well if that is a rather big if. I try to not judge people right away. If I were wrong condemned I would be very upset and would not love them. If I was correctly condemned I don’t know. If you claim to never truly understand Yahweh how can you know or believe it is “of mercy and forgiveness”?

 

[tamedlion]

If someone were to do that then yes they have to be punished according to the current laws. Thing is that is a finite punishment for a finite crime. To me there is no finite crime that is deserving of infinite punishment. You may not see good works as a reward but I do. Knowing I helped a friend of was a shoulder when someone needed it is more joyful that doing any deed to get into an imagined paradise.

You keep on answering your own questions. How long should be enough to spend in jail for some one killing your parents (for no reason)? 20, 40 years or a life time? If a life time is a good answer, that would be equivalent to infinite punishment because this life is all we got and we are not coming back to this same life. In order to not get infinite punishment, there is a set of rules we have to go by and each of us received sufficient intelligence to figure it out. The only way I see reward in good works is when I get at least a good feeling for doing it but some times good works don’t get what you expected.
Short story, once walking on the streets of Miami, FL a beggar asked me for spare change, I had less than 50 cents on my pocket, so gladly I gave it to him. As soon as he had it on the palm of his hands he slammed it against the floor and mumbled something that I couldn’t understand, all I can tell you is that it wasn’t THANK YOU. What was my reward for good work?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Have to disagree. We have no idea what Yeshua said. The closest writings are from Psaul and they mentioned none of Yeshua’s words. Mark, the first of the gospels, was written a solid 30+ years after the events were supposed to happen. John over 70+ years. To being a glimpse into someone who brought about a new faith the stories can be exaggerated in what this person could do and what this person said.

If God has the power to create the universe and life, then we just believe he also has the power to have the Bible written in the way he wants. If an all powerful Roman emperor wanted to corrupt the words of the Bible, he would have to fight against God. I just believe that the Bible I read today, is the Bible God intends me to read.

Well if that is a rather big if. I try to not judge people right away. If I were wrong condemned I would be very upset and would not love them.

There lays the difference, we believe that Jesus was wrongly condemned, and yet on the cross he said, ‘Forgive them Father’ That is what I read in the Bible, and I believe it is written for a purpose.

I doubt if there are many people, Christian or non - Christian who could forgive in the way Jesus forgave.

If you claim to never truly understand Yahweh how can you know or believe it is “of mercy and forgiveness”?

To love and forgive as Jesus did, goes against human nature, they say to forgive is divine.

 

[James248]

So I have more empathy than Yahweh? Cool! Oh and you can not like disobedience but would you throw the baby out with the bath water?

No. You are less just than Him. God punishes as He forgives.

And we talking about a consistently disobedient kid, so that don’t apply.

 

[NM505StKate]

You keep on answering your own questions. How long should be enough to spend in jail for some one killing your parents (for no reason)? 20, 40 years or a life time? If a life time is a good answer, that would be equivalent to infinite punishment because this life is all we got and we are not coming back to this same life. In order to not get infinite punishment, there is a set of rules we have to go by and each of us received sufficient intelligence to figure it out. The only way I see reward in good works is when I get at least a good feeling for doing it but some times good works don’t get what you expected.
Short story, once walking on the streets of Miami, FL a beggar asked me for spare change, I had less than 50 cents on my pocket, so gladly I gave it to him. As soon as he had it on the palm of his hands he slammed it against the floor and mumbled something that I couldn’t understand, all I can tell you is that it wasn’t THANK YOU. What was my reward for good work?

You gave someone change. Your reward was doing a deed out of selflessness. While yes life for a certain crime is a punishment it isn’t equivalent to infinite. Life is finite so a life sentence is a finite punishment to a finite crime. Tell me how can say not going to church on a day of obligation, like tomorrow, have a “just” punishment of hell? How could not believing or worshiping another faith be a crime worthy of eternal punishment?

 

[NM505StKate]

If God has the power to create the universe and life, then we just believe he also has the power to have the Bible written in the way he wants. If an all powerful Roman emperor wanted to corrupt the words of the Bible, he would have to fight against God. I just believe that the Bible I read today, is the Bible God intends me to read.

Even with all the rewrites? Even knowing that books were taken out? Even with editing? As I said before a being claimed to be all powerful should be able to inspire a work that needs no editing nor rewrites. It should be concise and everyone should understand it.

There lays the difference, we believe that Jesus was wrongly condemned, and yet on the cross he said, ‘Forgive them Father’ That is what I read in the Bible, and I believe it is written for a purpose.

Think about this. If the plan was for Yeshua to die on a torture device just so Yahweh to be able to forgive why not skip the dying and just forgive? How is it different than sacrificing a goat? An all powerful, all knowing, all loving being should be fully capable of doing this.

[QUOTEI doubt if there are many people, Christian or non - Christian who could forgive in the way Jesus forgave.

To love and forgive as Jesus did, goes against human nature, they say to forgive is divine.
[/QUOTE]

I doubt that Yeshua did any forgiving because we cannot honestly know what words were spoken by him. Please don’t cite the gospels because those were writing well after the accounts claimed in them.

 

[NM505StKate]

No. You are less just than Him. God punishes as He forgives.

And we talking about a consistently disobedient kid, so that don’t apply.

Even if constantly disobedient I still would not kick them out to fend on their own. Yahweh would kill the kid outright and have it tortured eternally. How is that compassion? Being all merciful is not compatible with all just.

 

[James248]

Even if constantly disobedient I still would not kick them out to fend on their own. Yahweh would kill the kid outright and have it tortured eternally. How is that compassion? Being all merciful is not compatible with all just.

Your kid, your problem.
He is merciful to the repentant, but unmerciful to the insolent. And the term is all loving.

 

[NM505StKate]

Your kid, your problem.
He is merciful to the repentant, but unmerciful to the insolent. And the term is all loving.

Still not compatible. A judge can be merciful to a defendant in a court case but not love the person. If you child broke a rule do you use the most extreme of punishments, probably not but Yahweh would. That isn’t love. Yeshua supposedly said love thy enemies correct? Yahweh wanted the enemies killed, like he wanted Saul to do.

 

[James248]

Still not compatible. A judge can be merciful to a defendant in a court case but not love the person. If you child broke a rule do you use the most extreme of punishments, probably not but Yahweh would. That isn’t love. Yeshua supposedly said love thy enemies correct? Yahweh wanted the enemies killed, like he wanted Saul to do.

God can do what we cannot. After all He is God.

The more compatible example would be if a kid kept disobeying the rules. The people who God commanded to exterminate were collectively heathens at heart. The innocent went to Abraham’s Bosom and are now in Heaven.