Why did God create Satan

[Gilbert_Keith]

Mordocai

“if Satan went before the throne and begged forgiveness, could he be redeemed?”

Great question! Why did God offer a second chance to Man but not to the Devil?

 

[st_felicity]

Gilbert Keith:

Mordocai

“if Satan went before the throne and begged forgiveness, could he be redeemed?”

Great question! Why did God offer a second chance to Man but not to the Devil?

It isn’t a “second chance”–Jesus’ redemption of mankind was always “part of the plan”. Redemption, I guess, isn’t part of the plan for angels. Remember–angels are much more equipped than we humans to make the right choice–they live in the presence of God!

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

From what I understand, the nature of an angel’s choice for or against God is such that the choice is irrevocable. It is not that God did not offer angels another chance so much as that angels, by their very nature, cannot repent. As st_felicity said, angels were better equipped to make the right choice. Their wills and intellects are higher than ours.

 

[Mordocai]

Perhaps an Angel turning against God is another “Sin Against the Holy Spirit” One that will not be forgiven in this age, or in the age to come. (I’m not saying that’s the correct interpretation, that particular passage is complicated but I’m merely suggesting a parallel)

It’s like a sin above mortal sin for angels.

They KNOW the truth. They’re a PART OF the truth. And they reject it in their pride (the sin from which all sin eminates from)

Lucifer was the most beautiful of all angels, which would SEEM to have put him in “second in command” I guess you could say. But he was so beautiful among his contemporaries, he considered himself better than they, and thus the best of all (including his Maker)

God is all loving, if Satan came before Him and begged forgiveness, why wouldn’t God forgive him? Any other reasons than the ones I proposed? (Trying to get a handle on both sides of the argument)

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Grace and Glory

As st_felicity said, angels were better equipped to make the right choice. Their wills and intellects are higher than ours.
*__________________
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If that is so, why did they make the wrong choice?

There seems to be a Catch 22 here?

 

[AndyF]

Philthy:

Hi all-

Why did God create Satan when God knew beforehand that Satan would be going to hell?
Phil

Perhaps we can find an answer in the concepts of predestination(heaven) and reprobation(hell).

From new advent: newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

It is in such practical considerations that the ascetical maxim (falsely ascribed to St. Augustine) originated: “Si non es prædestinatus, fac ut prædestineris” (if you are not predestined, so act that you may be predestined). Strict theology, it is true, cannot approve this bold saying, except in so far as the original decree of** predestination is conceived as at first a hypothetical decree, which is afterwards changed to an absolute and irrevocable decree by the prayers, good works, and perseverance of him who is predestined,** according to the words of the Apostle (II Pet., i, 10): “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.”

The sanctifying grace imparted to the angels was not a confirming grace to glory (Thomas Aq.). The first act of the angels through their free will was the choice of the use of charity toward their creator. Satan was/had become selfish and became prideful, therefore not placing God as the object of his ultimate good. The reprobation fate of Satan could have been changed to a pre-destiny to a permanent heavenly existance by his free will.

 By God's mercy even reprobation is not carved in stone. 

 Andy

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

If God is perfect and self sufficient, why did God create … anything?

Perhaps we need to stop asking questions for which there is no answer … or questions for which the answers are not relevant to our salvation?

 

[edwinG]

jimmy:

God creates us with love and with free will. He gives us free will to choose what ever we desire. To not create someone due to there future decisions would be to deny them there free will.

Hi jimmy,
Great point. If God was only to create that which would not sin, guess what , no creation.
His rescue of all things is to His glory. " The recovery of all things" What does this mean?
edwinG

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Free will is quite relevant because to refuse to create someone in order to prevent him from exercising his free will is seriously disrespecting if not negating that freedom. For instance, how free would the United States be if we enjoyed a freedom to criticize the government but all critics would be executed? I’m not claiming an airtight philosophical case, but it makes sense to me that freedom is only real if you are allowed to exercise it.

 

[edwinG]

Gilbert Keith:

If God is perfect and self sufficient, why did God create … anything?

Perhaps we need to stop asking questions for which there is no answer … or questions for which the answers are not relevant to our salvation?

Hi Gilbert Keith,
God created us to make a temple, of course not a tin shed or even a man made temple which took 40 years to make but a living temple of one heart and one mind. We will live in Him and He in us all having knowledge and eternal life.
So we are created to make a temple, and He gave us His visible creation for our enjoyment. Some gift Huh , I guess He must love us, as we are not treated as battery hens. We surely are exploiting that gift
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Mordocai:

Perhaps an Angel turning against God is another “Sin Against the Holy Spirit” One that will not be forgiven in this age, or in the age to come. (I’m not saying that’s the correct interpretation, that particular passage is complicated but I’m merely suggesting a parallel)

It’s like a sin above mortal sin for angels.

They KNOW the truth. They’re a PART OF the truth. And they reject it in their pride (the sin from which all sin eminates from)

Lucifer was the most beautiful of all angels, which would SEEM to have put him in “second in command” I guess you could say. But he was so beautiful among his contemporaries, he considered himself better than they, and thus the best of all (including his Maker)

God is all loving, if Satan came before Him and begged forgiveness, why wouldn’t God forgive him? Any other reasons than the ones I proposed? (Trying to get a handle on both sides of the argument)

Hi mordocai,
I cant speak for angles but for myself I can. To me the bible is the greatest DIY book ever. It is a pratical book, down to earth. Now the psychological aspect is this, if you really know the truth and then reject it, deep in your heart it is not possible for you to repent. Without repentance their is no salvation. God knows us and our emotional and mental capacities, so He lovingly warns us. If we go to far our hearts wont be able to repent.Similiarly if you are the victim of weakness and sin even repeatedly, like succumbing to an addiction, repeatedly you can hate yourself and ask for forgiveness and forgiveness is given. But to repeatedly repeat a sin without tempation and then ask forgiveness becomes impossible. You just stop asking for forgiveness.
Note also that Judas returned the money and felt so bad he suicided. I guess that is repentance but he died in his time and before God could save him.I wonder if he lived on if then by Gods grace he could have been forgiven. Christ certainly works on us, paring and pruning so that we can become like Him. I feel for Judas and find him a great mystery.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

AlanFromWichita:

Maybe God created Satan because it’s no challenge to play chess without an adversary.

Alan

Hi Alan,
Do you really think that satan is worthy of being called an adversary. I agree that satan would consider himself as an adversary, but would God consider him as such. God cries for us and we in our sin cause Him grief but all the rules seemingly flow in satan’s favor. I guess this is way off topic.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Andreas Hofer:

Free will is quite relevant because to refuse to create someone in order to prevent him from exercising his free will is seriously disrespecting if not negating that freedom. For instance, how free would the United States be if we enjoyed a freedom to criticize the government but all critics would be executed? I’m not claiming an airtight philosophical case, but it makes sense to me that freedom is only real if you are allowed to exercise it.

This is a very good point. In fact, this begs the question of whether our will is indeed “free” if we really believe the consequences of our decisions are tantamount to life and death.

You have free will; you can do whatever you want but if you choose the wrong way it leads to death. Is that really free, or is that quite a bit of coercion? How can we freely follow God’s command to love Him with all our heart when we are painfully aware that if we don’t love Him we will experience eternal suffering?

Not that I necessarily agree with this, but I have been unable to refute the point that we are supposedly required and commanded (under threat of eternal punishment and/or banishment) to do things that only have value if they are done freely. Yet this seems to be the way we present God’s calling to children.

I still find it a little uneasy when we say in the act of contrition “I regret all my sins because of Your just punishment, but most of all because they offend Thee…” In words, this says most of all because they offend Thee, but notice the punishment is mentioned first. I have no doubt this prayer reinforces the idea that the real reason we are sorry for our sins because we know God will spank us but good.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

edwinG:

Hi Alan,
Do you really think that satan is worthy of being called an adversary. I agree that satan would consider himself as an adversary, but would God consider him as such. God cries for us and we in our sin cause Him grief but all the rules seemingly flow in satan’s favor. I guess this is way off topic.
walk in love
edwinG

Hi Edwin!

Yes, because I think adversary simply implies an enemy. Now would God consider satan a “worthy” adversary? Dunno.

Alan

 

[oriel36]

st_felicity:

It isn’t a “second chance”–Jesus’ redemption of mankind was always “part of the plan”. Redemption, I guess, isn’t part of the plan for angels. Remember–angels are much more equipped than we humans to make the right choice–they live in the presence of God!

Words like ’ redemption,salvation,grace ect’ never really entered the vocabulary of this Catholic growing up and even when I did hear it from the firebrand evangelicals I knew enough to know it was for scoring some political point .I quite understand the American tendency to shudder at any presumed attack on ‘free will’ as anything other than a gift from God but this mixing of secular law with Spiritual precepts by the original deists is too grounded in the logic of men with no real heart while Apostolic Christianity is rich in symbolism .

I don’t know why Catholics are Not irritated by this constant noise generated by Christians who make a nuisance of themselves by making everything literal even when it is not required theologically and rationally to do so.My work as representative of Christ and Christianity is to untangle an enormous fiction that is in place to support a science/religion divide and those who insist on literal interpretations are not helping matters nor are those who insist on the divide as legit.

I use Dionysius quite a bit but historically he always carries a lot of weight among Catholics just like Paul.Most of the conceptual divisions of ‘angels’ would have emerged from Dionysius as a symbolical guide to Divine matters and while it is indulged that angels may be considered in corporeal terms,you are 30 years old and should at least know enough to drop the imagery that belongs to childhood.

“Wherefore that first institution of the sacred rites, judging it worthy of a supermundane copy of the Celestial Hierarchies, gave us our most holy hierarchy, and described that spiritual Hierarchy in material terms and in various compositions of forms so that we might be led, each according to his capacity, from the most holy imagery to formless, unific, elevative principles and assimilations. For the mind can by no means be directed to the spiritual presentation and contemplation of the Celestial Hierarchies unless it use the material guidance suited to it, accounting those beauties which are seen to be images of the hidden beauty, the sweet incense a symbol of spiritual dispensations, and the earthly lights a figure of the immaterial enlightenment. Similarly the details of the sacred teaching correspond to the feast of contemplation in the soul, while the ranks of order on earth reflect the Divine Concord and the disposition of the Heavenly Orders. The receiving of the most holy Eucharist symbolizes our participation of Jesus; and everything else delivered in a supermundane manner to Celestial Natures is given to us in symbols.”

esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/CelestialHierarchy.html

As for free will in ‘choosing God’ it is possible to prepare the ground but when the gift of God emerges a person will know that by no effort of his own can that ultimate gift be bestowed other than by God.

“who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Sean.McKenzie:

why did God create satan knowing he would go to hell? if God wanted the best thingfor satan, it would have been better that he had not been created?just like it wouild have been better that judas had not been born after betraying God

God created Lucifer as His chief angel. Lucifer (Light-bearer) became Satan (accuser) by rebelling against God.

 

[st_felicity]

oriel36:

Words like ’ redemption,salvation,grace ect’ never really entered the vocabulary of this Catholic growing up and even when I did hear it from the firebrand evangelicals I knew enough to know it was for scoring some political point .

What axe are you grinding? How unfortunate for you that you never heard the Truth growing up–and that today you look at the Truth of Grace, Redemption, and Salvation with such a skeptical sneer! If you are Catholic, what do you suppose the Sacremant of Reconciliation is for?

I don’t know why Catholics are Not irritated by this constant noise generated by Christians who make a nuisance of themselves by making everything literal even when it is not required theologically and rationally to do so. My work as representative of Christ and Christianity is to untangle an enormous fiction that is in place to support a science/religion divide and those who insist on literal interpretations are not helping matters nor are those who insist on the divide as legit.

Be clear on what you are attacking here…what specific “literal interpretations” are you referring to? From your post I could see it as an attack on the Eucharist (it’s literal reality), or (because of your reference to the science/religion divide) you could be attacking the definition of life, or death, or natural law. What is it? Have the courage of your convictions and BE CLEAR.

I use Dionysius quite a bit but historically he always carries a lot of weight among Catholics just like Paul.Most of the conceptual divisions of ‘angels’ would have emerged from Dionysius as a symbolical guide to Divine matters and while it is indulged that angels may be considered in corporeal terms,you are 30 years old and should at least know enough to drop the imagery that belongs to childhood.

Where in the world do you get the idea that I think angels are the cute little baby cherubs you see floating in the clouds on calanders? When I IMAGINE angels, I see St. Michael, armored and sword in hand–powerful–but I do NOT imagine that my visual imagery is FACT–that they have pretty feathered wings and long flowing hair–or even arms and legs or bodies at all! I do know one thing–angels can bring the message of God in any way He deems appropriate.

BTW-- You can keep your condescending (and inaccurate) assessments of my intellectual accuity to yourself! Thank-you.

%between%

 

[Philthy]

jimmy:

Philthy, it has everything to do with free will. If God would have decided to not create him because he would not choose to follow God then that would be denying the gift he had given all created beings.

Yes and no. To stick strictly to refuting your claim I will focus on the “no”. Your statement “the gift he had given all created beings.” is a falsehood. Free will is a gift of a very small proportion of God’s creation. Therefore, God could have created Satan without free will and he could still be God. No rules would have been broken.
Free will explains how the situation came to be what it is. It does not explain why God chose to create Satan knowing full well what he would do.

I maintain God’s decision had nothing to do with Satan’s free will. Here is my logic:

God’s decision to create(and actual creation of Satan) occurred BEFORE God’s creation of, and Satan’s use of, his own free will.
Therefore God’s creation of Satan was not contingent upon Satan’s free will nor the exercise of it.

I’m stubborn,

Phil

 

[Philthy]

puzzleannie:

why did God create Adam and Eve knowing they would sin? or ourselves? or Judas, Hitler, Dahmer etc.? God’s knowledge has no past and future, God is outside time and His omnipresence and omniscience is eternally in the present. Free will is entirely relevant, and you have already received the answer. The angels, like the humans**, were created out of pure love, **given the chance to abide in that love eternally and some have chosen and will continue to choose rejection of that love. Since God respects this free will choice, that necessitates eternal separation from His presence. Creating beings with only one choice would be a denial of freewill

Hi puzzleannie!

Sean.McKenzie:

why did God create satan knowing he would go to hell?

So why did God create Satan? He was " created out of pure love". That is a good answer that I can live with.
The discussion of free will does not explain, in my opinion, WHY God created Satan(ie, the original question), but explains, INSTEAD, why Satan turned out to be evil.
Free will is not a prerequisite for creation - ask any tree, planet, amoeba, etc.

Im probably being to rigid in my interpretation of the question and maybe not “reading into it” enough…

Phil

 

[st_felicity]

Philthy:

Here is my logic:

God’s decision to create(and actual creation of Satan) occurred BEFORE God’s creation of, and Satan’s use of, his own free will.

… ummmmmm How’s this for a rigid interpretation? If God is timeless–how could he have done ANYTHING “before”? That implies time… Darn it–it’s another one of the wonderful “Mysteries…”!