Why did God decree Death?

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George720 said:
Unless you can demonstrate its location here on earth…
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The witness of the Church has Adam never leaving the Gate to Paradise for the rest of his life on earth…

Will you concede that the GATE to Paradise is here on earth?

geo
 
There are different levels of existence. The existence of things intensifies depending upon the realm or world in which they subsist. As things ascend upwards from the sensible world of matter through the intermediate realm of imagination towards the intelligible they become more real i.e. their reality becomes stronger. Similarly their reality becomes weak as they move downwards in their descent from the intelligible through the realm of imagination towards the sensible world.

When Adam descended from paradise to earth, he descended from the noetic garden in the realm of imagination, to the world of matter.
 
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Gradation of existence is a concept developed by Shia philosopher Mulla Sadra, this concept is based on Sufi doctrine. The realm of imagination as an intermediary realm between the intelligible and sensible is a concept developed by the Sufi sage Ibn Arabi. These two concepts solve the problems that occur in the idea of a physical ressurection, physical paradise, physical hell, etc.

Keep in mind, we are in the philosophy section.
 
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SalamKhan said:
Gradation of existence is a concept developed by Shia philosopher Mulla Sadra, this concept is based on Sufi doctrine. The realm of imagination as an intermediary realm between the intelligible and sensible is a concept developed by the Sufi sage Ibn Arabi. These two concepts solve the problems that occur in the idea of a physical ressurection, physical paradise, physical hell, etc.
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Thank-you -

We understand this fallen existence in both realms as the proving ground of the persons living in them which will determine each person’s disposition in the Life of the Age to Come, of which in this fallen existence we are given but an earnest…

But the person is both body and soul, and both of these in a wretched condition in this fallen life, saddled as we are with the heavy burden of death and fear of it and of pain and suffering, which lead us from the Dominion of God into self-centered actions unloving of God and neighbor…

So that the gradation of existence posited by your philosophy is seen by us as the wholeness of Creation in which we live and move, where death is not a divine decree ordained by God, but is instead a human mis-step which God is correcting and which we are choosing in our living of our lives to enter into the Love that God IS, or turn to defense of self from a death that is not avoidable - Or worse…

For us, the sensible is subject to the intelligible, because the sensible IS intelligible…

To live in one’s own imagination alone is evil…

geo
 
SalamKhan said:
Keep in mind, we are in the philosophy section.
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Do you have any suggestions as to how I might better keep this in mind?

Once upon a time, I thought that philosophy was the queen of all the sciences, which it very well may be… But certainly, one might suppose that it can touch on anything… Was I wandering off the reservation? I mean, philosophy does include belief systems, yes?

geo
 
George720 said:
To live in one’s own imagination alone is evil…
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You may have misunderstood me. The realm of imagination is more real, compared to anything in the world of matter. We merely ‘scratch the surface’ of this realm, when we dream, and get even more of a glimpse of this realm during NDEs.
 
SalamKhan said:
The realm of imagination is more real,
compared to anything in the world of matter.
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The content of the imagination is derived from material sources…

So it is therefore derivative…

Subsidiary…

Less, not more, real…
We merely ‘scratch the surface’ of this realm, when we dream, and get even more of a glimpse of this realm during NDEs.
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Yes, you make the point for me…

geo
 
SalamKhan said:
Well, there was quite a bit of appealing to authority (church & scripture) with little elaboration/explanation.
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Well, all were in direct reply to your own authoritative assertions, which were of comparable pith…

geo
 
George720 said:
The content of the imagination is derived from material sources…

So it is therefore derivative…
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Not necessarily. If human beings, who are material, can conceive that God exists, it does not follow that God’s existence is derivative, in fact, it is the opposite, the existence of all things except God, are derivative.

Have you not heard of what is often labelled ‘Platonic Forms’ or ‘Archetypes’?
 
SalamKhan said:
Not necessarily. If human beings, who are material, can conceive that God exists, it does not follow that God’s existence is derivative, in fact, it is the opposite, the existence of all things except God, are derivative.

Have you not heard of what is often labelled ‘Platonic Forms’ or ‘Archetypes’?
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You do sound neoplatonic, but to conceive that God exists is not an imaginative exercise, but an intellectual one… I used to conceive it and reject it as self-contradictory… Imagination derives from images which derive from material objects of which we have images… Without images of objects, there is no imagination in this fallen world…

Human beings are not ONLY material - We are created in the image of God, and the cultivation of that image is a part of the acquisition of the likeness…

geo
 
George720 said:
but to conceive that God exists is not an imaginative exercise, but an intellectual one…
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It was simply an example, and it is still a material being intellecting God’s existence.
George720 said:
Without images of objects, there is no imagination in this fallen world…
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If man in his intelligible form has no image, how did his origination in the material world come to be? God is also called all seeing, and not just all knowing.

Also, why did the Prophets see angels in various shapes and forms, when the angels are spiritual creatures?
 
SalamKhan said:
It is still a material being intellecting God’s existence.
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Materiality intellecting immateriality?

On what basis?, you see, is the issue…

And you ducked the matter of man not being ONLY materiality…

Indeed the materiality of fallen man will be restored and elevated…

That does not make it imaginative…

I mean, it CAN be imaginative, based on materiality, and if so will be limited…

It CAN be intellective a la Aristotle and inferred…

It CAN be through a more than empirical encounter…

It CAN be by trusted hear-say…

To conceive God is an action of the intellect with many possible origins…
SalamKhan said:
why did the Prophets see angels in various shapes and forms, when the angels are spiritual creatures?
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As a condescension to his fallen nature…
SalamKhan said:
If man in his intelligible form has no image, how did his origination in the material world come to be?
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God created him in a prepared body…

You know all this already…

The Image of God in Which man is created by God transcends material images…

Which is why the Mystery is entered and embraced, and not talked about and explained in billiard-ball physics…

geo
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George720 said:
Materiality intellecting immateriality?
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This is not what I even said. I didn’t take you to task for apparently saying that imagination derives from matter, despite the fact that imagination clearly lacks matter (just not dimensions).
George720 said:
It CAN be intellective a la Aristotle and inferred…
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Aristotle was a materialist who believed that the soul perishes, it was Plato who believed that the soul is immortal. Perhaps it may be time to explore more than just Aristotle & Aquinas if you haven’t already.
George720 said:
Which is why the Mystery is entered and embraced, and not talked about and explained in billiard-ball physics…
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Do you believe the descriptions of the afterlife in scriptures to be of a material afterlife? For example, the fires of hell?
 
SalamKhan said:
I didn’t take you to task for apparently saying that imagination derives from matter,
despite the fact that imagination clearly lacks matter (just not dimensions).
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Thought clearly lacks matter too…
Noetic activities lack matter…
Clearly!!

Yet the content of imaginative processes is images…
And images are materially impressed…
Which is why imaginative processes leading to a concept of God are destined to failure…
How can it be avoided?

“SalamKhan said:
Do you believe the descriptions of the afterlife in scriptures to be of a material afterlife.
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Not as we now experience matter…

Creation is now fallen…

But yes, including unfallen physis…
For example, the fires of hell?
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These are the presence of God to them that hate him…

geo
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Death seems like a merciful result of corrupted nature. When Adam was in a state of grace, he experienced the Kingdom of God with his whole being, physical and spiritual. Both parts were corrupted by original sin, but God only allows the physical part to die, and before that happens we are allowed to let God in to our lives as fully as we wish to elevate our spiritual state with Him for eternity. So it’s not like God says, “You sinned, now you have to die.” so much as “You sinned, but only a temporary part of you has to suffer, and if you choose to you can use that suffering to draw the eternal part of you to heavenly bliss.”
 
George720 said:
Thought clearly lacks matter too…
Noetic activities lack matter…
Clearly!!
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I know.
George720 said:
Yet the content of imaginative processes is images…
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It it clearly evident that imagination is devoid of matter, just not devoid of dimensions…
George720 said:
Which is why imaginative processes leading to a concept of God are destined to failure…
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Our senses, imagination AND intellect are doomed to fail in grasping the essence of God. We may understand His Names and Attributes, and how they are manifest within His creation, nothing more, unless we are saints or prophets.
George720 said:
Not as we now experience matter…
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“We have decreed among you Death; We shall not be outstripped; that We may exchange the likes of you, and make you to grow again in a fashion you know not.” - Qur’an 56:60-61

This is what is referred to as the imaginal realm, ‘imaginal’, not ‘imaginary’. It is devoid of matter, otherwise, it would require a location.
George720 said:
These are the presence of God to them that hate him…
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I’d assumed you were Catholic, are you Eastern Orthodox? Anyway, this is the view of philosphers such as Avicenna & Ismaili Shiahs; a purely spiritual afterlife. However, it leaves the detailed descriptions of the afterlife, by the prophets, unexplained, and implies that they are liars to have described the afterlife in this manner.
 
Brian_K said:
Death seems like a merciful result of corrupted nature. When Adam was in a state of grace, he experienced the Kingdom of God with his whole being, physical and spiritual. Both parts were corrupted by original sin, but God only allows the physical part to die, and before that happens we are allowed to let God in to our lives as fully as we wish to elevate our spiritual state with Him for eternity. So it’s not like God says, “You sinned, now you have to die.” so much as “You sinned, but only a temporary part of you has to suffer, and if you choose to you can use that suffering to draw the eternal part of you to heavenly bliss.”
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Without going into great details. I believe, our death is the end of our sufferings and our training on earth and it is our graduation to be Well Informed, Battle Hardened, Glorified and Joyful Saints in Heaven.

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

294 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become “all in all,” thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude." 140

I believe “all in all,” means the entire human race.
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In THE PROBLEM OF EVIL Peter Kreeft explains;
“Who’s to say suffering is all bad? Life without it would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.”
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God bless
 
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