Why did god design us so badly?

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Abbadon said:
I had asked previously what other evidence there was for the existence of god?

Now i would love to hear your thoughts…
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Three engineers were talking about the nature of God at a cocktail party: a mechanical engineer, a chemical engineer, and a civil engineer.

The mechanical engineer said, " If God were an engineer, He’d be a mechanical engineer. Just look at the human hand. It’s a marvel of delicacy, power, and balance. With hands, all the great art and architecture of the world was made.":dancing:

The chemical engineer said, “No, no, no, :nope: if God were an engineer, He’d be a chemical engineer. My example is the human nervous system and brain; chemicals and electrical impulses work in perfect harmony to make us who we are.”:yup:

The civil engineer took a sip of his drink and smirked. He added, “No, guys, God is a civil engineer. Who else could successfully run a recreational facility through a waste disposal site!”👍

😃

I advise you to visit MIT or any of the major hospitals in this lovely country. Have a talk with a doctor there and ask about the design of the human body. Perhaps this line of inquiry is calling you to become a healer! We question God through our passions for learning. He reveals Himself to us through our discoveries in these passions. Follow your brain!:eek:
 
BlaineTog said:
If he had evolved, he wouldn’t be God. He simply wouldn’t fit the definition.
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How not, especially the Christian version which is supposedly partly human? Maybe you can define your god and I can tell you how having been evolved is not a limitation.
 
fhansen said:
If I understand where you’re going with this then I would ask: why would it make sense for a mind, whether ours or Gods, to be the product of randomness or non-order/non-design or in any case of non-mind? How could non-mind be superior to mind? Even in our personal worlds, wherever one finds order they find a mind creating that order. And if we say we do recognize mind behind the evolutionary process or behind whatever we think the origins of the universe consist of then we’ve simply identified the mind of God anyway. I don’t know why it took me so long to get this but while we may be -or feel- out of sync with nature, maybe even ashamed of ourselves if we’re honest, God isn’t-He would only dislike any unnatural parts of us-and that’s all sin is. And why would a creator have to be like His creation in every way? At some point creators, whether God or us, stand above and apart from their creations-by virtue of the fact that they are, after all, the creator.
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Isn’t “mind” considered an emergent property? How would the mind of such a being be negatively impacted by having evolved? If a being chose evolution to create people in its image and likeness, then surely there must be something in the process that is godly, else why would it choose such a method?

And I don’t know what you mean by unnatural. I am of the view that nothing unnatural exists. Natural doesn’t always mean conducive to life or happiness or contentment, but being perceived otherwise surely doesn’t make something unnatural.

And I’m not saying that such a creator need be like his creation in every way. I’m asking why people are so defensive about evolution, especially those who view it favorably. This god has lots of human qualities if I understand it correctly, people even say it’s male. Why so quick to rule out having evolved?
 
What makes this particular god so special that it can’t have evolved?
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There is only one God. He’s a spirit, no body, no genome, no mutations, and (of course) individuals don’t evolve. Populations do. And God is (obviously) not a population.
How would having evolved, even if it isn’t part of natural creation, make it less than what it is?
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Evolution is a property of nature. That’s how it is.
I mean if it chose to use evolution to make people, it obviously doesn’t have anything against it, so by what logic would it be prevented from having the same qualities?
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See above. If you learn nothing else from this, learn that evolution is what happens to populations of organisms, not to individuals and certainly not to spirits.
Aren’t people supposedly made in its image and likeness?
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Um, that is we are like Him, in spirit, and in having a knowledge of good and evil, being conscious and ethical beings. God doesn’t have ear lobes or nostrils, or a human-shaped body. He’s a spirit.
I don’t see how being anti evolution wrt the god can be reasonably defended
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Perhaps a little reading up on evolutionary theory might help. So would learning about God.
 
Abbadon said:
Now before i begin this thread i can’t promise that i will be responding to everything, just the interesting ones. I’m sorry i just don’t have enough time.

I had asked previously what other evidence there was for the existence of god? I read some links and i still don’t see it i see nature and natural answers but no real need for a higher power. (Let alone the question of which higher power, if i did see a higher power, all these arguments no more support the monothiestic god than it does the other creator god’s Odin, Ra’s father and mother (sky and earth can’t remeber the names) or say the rainbow serpent…)

But there is another problem with the argument from design. As a designer i could have designed at least humanity alot better. DNA is a rather poor replicator, bad mutations could be removed. Regeneration of cells could have been extended to at least 1000 years (a species that lives more makes more decisions based on the long run, and would be wiser). I would have made my children UV resistant, Perpahs even the ability to change the spectram of radiation visible. Harder skin so on so forth. Overall alot better design…

There would and still could be suffering both physical and emotional pain, so god not fear his creations not suffering,

I have heard the reply we are a fallen perfection. Just how far did we fall?

Anyway the point is. IF this creation is designed, it is a poor design and would in no way win a design award in a relative field of being creation. I argue that I given the resources and budget of a god could do a much better job.

Now i would love to hear your thoughts…
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God didn’t design us. The human race evolved over millions of years from earlier related species. Most of the advantages of the human race, walking upright, large brain, speech, opposable thumb, very gradually evolved and made the race very successful in competing with other species.

Unfortunately the success of the human race overcame some deficiencies like the vermiform appendix, which tends to occlude and rupture, producing sepsis and death; the aqueduct of Sylvius in the brain, which tends to stop up and produce hydrocephalus; the bile duct, which is easily stopped up with stones, to produce agony, sepsis and death, and the female pelvis, which soon became too small for the baby’s head, producing a protracted agony and death in childbirth. But most of mankind survived these hurdles and man continued to flourish into the modern age, when we could address the medical problems of our imperfect design.

NOW we have problems related to our prolonged survival and walking upright, mainly disk, cartilage and joint and spine degeneration.

I agree, god could have designed us much better from the beginning. But then, he didn’t design us. Nature did. Or the rainbow serpent. I always liked him (or Her).
 
crowonsnow said:
How not, especially the Christian version which is supposedly partly human?
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All human, actually.

Because evolution takes a period of time, whereas God simple Is, eternally and in both directions. All of time is “the present” to God, which makes any concept of “becoming” absurd.

As for Jesus, he was begotten, which means he exists just like God. Just because he popped into existence for a while as a human doesn’t mean he evolved.
 
Abbadon said:
Now before i begin this thread i can’t promise that i will be responding to everything, just the interesting ones. I’m sorry i just don’t have enough time.

I had asked previously what other evidence there was for the existence of god? I read some links and i still don’t see it i see nature and natural answers but no real need for a higher power. (Let alone the question of which higher power, if i did see a higher power, all these arguments no more support the monothiestic god than it does the other creator god’s Odin, Ra’s father and mother (sky and earth can’t remeber the names) or say the rainbow serpent…)

But there is another problem with the argument from design. As a designer i could have designed at least humanity alot better. DNA is a rather poor replicator, bad mutations could be removed. Regeneration of cells could have been extended to at least 1000 years (a species that lives more makes more decisions based on the long run, and would be wiser). I would have made my children UV resistant, Perpahs even the ability to change the spectram of radiation visible. Harder skin so on so forth. Overall alot better design…

There would and still could be suffering both physical and emotional pain, so god not fear his creations not suffering,

I have heard the reply we are a fallen perfection. Just how far did we fall?

Anyway the point is. IF this creation is designed, it is a poor design and would in no way win a design award in a relative field of being creation. I argue that I given the resources and budget of a god could do a much better job.

Now i would love to hear your thoughts…
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Planned obsolescence! lol…
 
crowonsnow said:
Lucifer did this in heaven. So there was obviously evil in heaven. If there was evil in heaven, there was no fall for men. Any fall had already ocurred in heaven.
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Lucifer did this before being beatified. In God’s full glory, there is no evil. Lucifer’s fall did not directly condemn us because we are not the same species as him.
 
crowonsnow said:
But this spirit is male, correct? How do you determine that?
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Male attributes. He provides, He creates us distinct from Himself (note that most religions holding to an Earth-god actually hold to an Earth-goddess), and He initiates the relationship with us.
 
But this spirit is male, correct?
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No. We refer to Him as “Him” by convention, and by analogy with fathers, who care for their children. God has no sex.
 
The_Barbarian said:
No. We refer to Him as “Him” by convention, and by analogy with fathers, who care for their children. God has no sex.
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Thank you.

Judging from your many posts, I should not be surprised to receive such an excellent response.

Kudos.
 
crowonsnow said:
And I don’t know what you mean by unnatural. I am of the view that nothing unnatural exists. Natural doesn’t always mean conducive to life or happiness or contentment, but being perceived otherwise surely doesn’t make something unnatural.
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By “unnatural” I’m referring to moral evil which was introduced into the world by the free choice of created beings but was not intended, or “natural”- merely allowed in order for freedom to be authentically free. By this thinking there is implied, of course, the existence of objective design parameters within which our behavior should operate-in other words there exists the possibility of our doing wrong rather than right.

So the short answer is no, we’re not 100% natural, although some can be closer to being so than others. Thus, while murder, incest, pedophilia, torture, rape, gossip and lying are possible behaviors for us and may even seem quite normal based on the sheer amount of some of this stuff that occurs, sometimes even with one culture committing atrocities on another on a huge scale, we were never designed to do these things and we should wonder why even one of us would. And the very reason that moral outrage can even manifest itself in us - the reason that one person can be of the opinion that another person’s behavior is morally wrong in some way- is because we already believe that such a design parameter- objective morals- exists for humans, whether we’re aware of that belief or not, and even tho we may differ as to what qualifies as a moral norm. We know innately that humans don’t have to do certain things they do-that they could do otherwise. If the world is nothing more than dog-eat-dog, then selfishness is the only real rule. Christianity teaches that love was the original rule-and we broke it.
 
fhansen said:
By “unnatural” I’m referring to moral evil which was introduced into the world by the free choice of created beings but was not intended, or “natural”- merely allowed in order for freedom to be authentically free. By this thinking there is implied, of course, the existence of objective design parameters within which our behavior should operate-in other words there exists the possibility of our doing wrong rather than right.

So the short answer is no, we’re not 100% natural, although some can be closer to being so than others. Thus, while murder, incest, pedophilia, torture, rape, gossip and lying are possible behaviors for us and may even seem quite normal based on the sheer amount of some of this stuff that occurs, sometimes even with one culture committing atrocities on another on a huge scale, we were never designed to do these things and we should wonder why even one of us would. And the very reason that moral outrage can even manifest itself in us - the reason that one person can be of the opinion that another person’s behavior is morally wrong in some way- is because we already believe that such a design parameter- objective morals- exists for humans, whether we’re aware of that belief or not, and even tho we may differ as to what qualifies as a moral norm. We know innately that humans don’t have to do certain things they do-that they could do otherwise. If the world is nothing more than dog-eat-dog, then selfishness is the only real rule. Christianity teaches that love was the original rule-and we broke it.
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Well, obviously, I don’t hold to any of that. Better to just become the change you seek.

Based on observation, Christianity is and has been as barbaric as many other human institutions and religions. It’s no more or less unnatural in that respect.

Your post reminds me of that saying that goes something like, ‘a theology without a hell just ain’t worth a damn.’ The fact that Christianity preaches a hell gives it flavor and helps get people to pay attention. Without a hell, it wouldn’t get much mileage.
 
crowonsnow said:
Your post reminds me of that saying that goes something like, ‘a theology without a hell just ain’t worth a damn.’ The fact that Christianity preaches a hell gives it flavor and helps get people to pay attention. Without a hell, it wouldn’t get much mileage.
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Well, I guess if you want to hear it that way. What I was saying is that people have a choice and some of those choices have produced untold suffering for others in this world and that ultimately justice for those sufferers will prevail. But the justice that prevails will also be by our choice-it is the choice to reject love. Meanwhile we get some time here to figure it all out, gain some sense, and make the right choice. Its not fear of hell that draws me-its a love so profound and enormous that I couldn’t want for anything else.
 
crowonsnow said:
Based on observation, Christianity is and has been as barbaric as many other human institutions and religions. It’s no more or less unnatural in that respect.
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Christianity hasn’t been barbaric. Christians, at least people who call themselves that, have been at times.
 
The_Barbarian said:
Excuse me?
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I wouldn’t deny that Christians, even popes, sometimes acting in the name of God, have not always followed their own gospel, yourself excluded, of course. It’s the gospel I love. We are ensured only that the Churchs’ teachings are infallible on matters of faith and morals, not that her people will be impeccable or cease to sin-even tho that is Her will along with Gods, of course.
 
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