Why did Judas betray Jesus?

[tonyrey]

Do you think it’s unlikely? Suppose he fell on some jagged rocks…

I think it is very likely. Even without the jagged rocks.

If those who know who he was were too resentful to bury him, or found him unclean on the Passover, he could have hung there for days until the gasses swelled in his body.I’m sure you are right.

Petty theft doesn’t amount to deliberate rejection of Jesus - and certainly not of God the Father. What leads you to believe Judas was guilty of “plotted manipulaton”?

“‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone…”

Theft, no matter how petty, is still a sin. Under what circumstances could Judas take money out of the joint purse that could be justified? Perhaps he was afraid he would go without something to eat? Sin separates us from God, and it always starts with petty sins, then the conscience becomes seared, so we justify greater sins.

That is true but Judas didn’t justify the crucifixion of his Master. He held himself responsible for having been an accessory and punished himself for his crime.

Judas went to the enemies of Jesus and asked them what they would be willing to pay him to deliver Jesus to them. He plotted to betray Jesus, though he knew his blood was innocent. I think he was manipulating Jesus to publicly proclaim Himself King, set up the Kingdom on earth, and get himself a posh spot.

“get himself a posh spot” is sheer speculation! You are attributing a motive to Judas without the slightest evidence that was his intention. St John, who was in a better position to judge, believed Satan had possessed him.

Whatever his motives, he was trying to manipulate the situation and took money to do it. OneSheep’s position is that no one is culpable of their sins because no one willingly and knowingly rejects God. My contention is that Judas willingly and knowingly betrayed his master.

Then you are contradicting St John’s testimony…

 

[guanophore]

St John states clearly that "Satan entered him..."

Jesus didn’t say Judas was lost forever nor that he would go to hell. He was lost because at that moment he was possessed by Satan.

Satan cannot do this unless he is given permission/a foothold. Judas left the door open. I think you are right about the moment. Jesus also called Peter “satan” and told him to “get thee behind me”, but Peter was able to humble himself, rather than letting Satan enter through pride.

Judas cannot be in this category because he did repent. “I have betrayed innocent blood” are not the words of a man who isn’t sorry for what he has done.

I am not sure we can assume this. He regretted the consequences of his action, and recognized that he betrayed innocent blood, but regret does not necessarily equal repentance. Sometimes people regret they got caught, and regret the consequences, but have no remorse about what they did. Sorry doesn’t necessarily mean repentance either. One can have remorse about their guilt, but that does not get them to turn to God for forgiveness. Repentance means doing a 180 - going from faithlessness to faith. If Judas had thrown himself on the mercy of God, he would not have fallen into despair. Peter also betrayed Christ, but responded differently.

  Nor is a man who kills himself for that reason a hardened, unrepentant sinner. Judas was heart-broken when he heard Jesus had been condemned. He may have expected his Master to save Himself because it was a Jewish belief that the Messiah would lead his people to victory over the Romans and establish their kingdom on earth. There is no doubt whatsoever Judas was devastated by the knowledge that Jesus was going to be crucified like a criminal. If he had foreseen the full consequences of his treachery he would have thought twice before going ahead with his plan but there is no evidence that he hesitated for one moment. When Jesus told him to do what he had to do quickly he obeyed instantly.

I agree that he was devastated about the consequences, maybe broken hearted, and can even concede that, had he known, he may have chosen differently, ,but that still does not mean he was repentant. If the guilty do not take that step of throwing themselves onto the mercy of God, regret has no value.

He may have thought that was what his Master wanted him to do but he didn't have time to consider the matter. What he did know was that he was fulfilling the prophecy and must have thought he had no choice. Jesus never said things that weren't true. So Judas was trapped by his fatal **mistake -** and no one is damned unless they reject God deliberately...

Judas made the deal on his own, without any instruction from Jesus. What evidence do you have that he believed he was fulfilling prophesy? Most of them could not figure out how the Messiah suffering and dying was necessary. There are no mistakes so fatal that we are trapped by them in the sense that we are separated from God’s mercy. Only final rejection of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, because it blocks the means by which we are saved.

We cannot know the state of his heart and soul at the moment of his death, but he rejected God deliberately when he chose to betray him. He rationalized it and made it “ok” in his head and heart. He convinced himself it was the right thing to do.

“get himself a posh spot” is sheer speculation! You are attributing a motive to Judas without the slightest evidence that was his intention.

Well of course it is! Isn’t that the point of the thread? Are the speculations of others allowed but not mine? I dont’ believe Judas meant to harm Jesus, so when asked the question “why” I look for another motive.

I am not contradicting St. John, because I don’t see these at all contradictory. Satan enters into us when we are oriented toward the world, the flesh, and the devil. When our passions are disordered (away from God) we are predisposed to act selfishly, and in an evil manner.

Jesus stated that those who were His could not be snatched out of His hand. If Judas was not protected from Satan, it was because he jumped out of Jesus’ hand on his own.

[/QUOTE]

 

[bsy]

Hi tonyrey,

We can agree to disagree since no one really knows, right?

My position is based on the most logical conclusions on clues given in the Scripture. In my opinion, “Satan entered him” means the devil has already induced (tempted) Judas. Jn13:2. Judas, by his own free will, succumbed to greed. No one can served two masters, and money was Judas’ prime motivator. He was called a “thief” in Jn12:6, untrustworthy as keeper of the money bag. You contended that the amount is small, but most thieves start small, right? Judas was a man of opportunity, and when opportunity came knocking, he gave in to temptation; and yes, he might have thought that Jesus would escape execution. Judas did repent but for the wrong reason. He knew the consequences of betraying an innocent blood – that he will be counted as the “condemned.” Matt27:3. My position is that Judas did not repent to renew his friendship with Jesus. Jesus is love and merciful, but the Lord is also JUST. The Lord will always forgive a truly contrite heart who seek a genuine reconciliation with Him; at the same time, cast out those who fail. Jn15:6. Judas condemned himself by betraying the Innocent Blood who counted him as a trusted friend, a disciple.

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[guanophore]

Hi tonyrey,

We can agree to disagree since no one really knows, right?

My position is based on the most logical conclusions on clues given in the Scripture. In my opinion, “Satan entered him” means the devil has already induced (tempted) Judas. Jn13:2. Judas, by his own free will, succumbed to greed. No one can served two masters, and money was Judas’ prime motivator. He was called a “thief” in Jn12:6, untrustworthy as keeper of the money bag. You contended that the amount is small, but most thieves start small, right? Judas was a man of opportunity, and when opportunity came knocking, he gave in to temptation; and yes, he might have thought that Jesus would escape execution. Judas did repent but for the wrong reason. He knew the consequences of betraying an innocent blood – that he will be counted as the “condemned.” Matt27:3. My position is that Judas did not repent to renew his friendship with Jesus. Jesus is love and merciful, but the Lord is also JUST. The Lord will always forgive a truly contrite heart who seek a genuine reconciliation with Him; at the same time, cast out those who fail. Jn15:6. Judas condemned himself by betraying the Innocent Blood who counted him as a trusted friend, a disciple.

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He was a thief, and he was motivated by money, but I think in this case it was something more. Or he imagined that he would get more money and power by becoming a ruler in the new Kingdom. If it was only money, why not just keep dipping into the community purse?

 

[OneSheep]

He may not have intended for Jesus to be tortured and killed, but the plain fact is, he rejected Jesus and the Father long before this deed. He had three years to sit at the feet of Jesus and allow his heart to be tenderized, but he would not. He stole from the money bag, and plotted manipulaton of his Teacher. Full knowledge does not mean he could see all the possible outcomes. Full knowledge means that one knows that certain acts are considered wrong.

Good Sunday to you, guanophore!

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

You proposed that Judas was seeking to have Jesus be put into power (a theory as good as any). This is not “wrong” in his eye, correct? As you may remember, I don’t think that Judas wanted Jesus in power. Instead, I am thinking that he saw Jesus as a threat. In either case, Judas did not know that what he was doing was wrong, for if he saw Jesus as a threat, then he intended to dispose of that threat. If Judas saw Jesus as a power he wanted to assist, (to his own benefit) then he was still not seeing “the sinful character of the act.” In either case, then, he was not seeing “sinful character”, he was seeing a benefit. Feel free to disagree!

Again, when Jesus said, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” What did the crowd not know? I am really interested in your answer to that question.

Are you suggesting that your “observations” are not filtered by your belief system?

Are you detecting a splinter in my eye? Sure, I may have a few.

You don’t think your conviction that no one ever knowingly or willingly rejects God changes the way you evaluate behavior?

It is not a “conviction”. It is a conclusion based on observation. As you can see from this post, it is a well-founded conclusion, even though it remains temporary.

No, OS, you misapplied the statement of Jesus to “the crowd”. His statement was made in regard to those who were crucifying him.

Is there a scripture scholar you know of that says Jesus’ statement, “Forgive them, bor they know not what they do” was not applied to all those who wanted Him crucified? I’m not ruling it out, but your version is the first I have ever heard. Can you provide a link , maybe?

“We” speculated no such thing. Judas knew that his actions were wrong. He convinced himself that the outcome would make the means worthwhile. A person does not say “I have betrayed innocent blood” if one thinks otherwise.

My error on the “we”! Yes, Judas realized his error afterwards. Before that, he was more blind, or ignorant, or both.

Judas rejected God’s unmerited grace.

So, what reasons did Judas have for rejecting God’s grace?

You think he killed himself by accident?!

Of course not, friend. However, if he was able to see his own value, he would not have killed himself. He would have saved the temple.

When Jesus said "forgive them, for they know not what they do, what did the crowd crucifying Him not know?

And your speculations must be informed by your confirmational bias.

There’s that speck again.

Thomas has the right response. He falls to the feet of Jesus and prays “Oh Lord, help my unbelief!” Judas could have thrown himself on God’s mercy, could have asked God to help his blindness. We can all do this. God gives every human soul sufficient grace to be saved.

A person will only ask for help with their blindness if A)they know they are blind and B) they do not want to be blind. Why would they want to be blind, guanophore? Wait, I know, you are going to say “pride”:

“Pride is the excessive love of one’s own excellence. … that frame of mind in which a man, through the love of his own worth, aims to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God, and sets at naught the commands of superiors. It is a species of contempt of God and of those who bear his commission.”

Well, love of self is not a bad thing, for Jesus asks us to “love our neighbor as our selves”, which makes for great love of neighbor! But you have something there, “pride” being the “aim to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God.” So, the next question is “why does he aim to withdraw himself from subjection?”. We cannot answer “because of pride” because that is what you are defining as the “aim” in itself; it is like saying “he has pride because he has pride”. To what purpose does the human ever withdraw himself from subjection?

Oh, and as far as your description of my analysis as “psychobabble”, that is what I am asking you to critique. If you do not agree with part of it, rather than insult it, you could propose observations. Are you familiar with the reason for people dismissing psychology and other sciences?

motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=4

Studies show that we get a neurological “happy” lift when we dismiss views that oppose our beliefs. What happens in the mind is no different than winning a game. It’s like “his views are worthless, I win!”

Now, have you just read that last paragraph and thought, “his views are worthless, I win!”?

If so, confirmation.

As long as it is all with love, friend.

John 13:34-35New International Version (NIV)

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[OneSheep]

Nor is it our place to do so. Only God can read and judge the heart.

Exactly. People willingly and knowingly fail to respond to responsibilities. God draws all to Himself. Those who do not respond choose to reject HIm.

Guanophore, open your eyes and look at those two statements.

We are self condemned, when we refuse God’s offer of mercy.

Arrogance, or hubris, is first noted in the actions of Lucifer, who, though he was created a powerful being full of light, chose to leave the presence of God. In the garden of Eden, we see hubris at work again, when Adam and Eve take it upon themselves to disbobey God’s commandment.

Look at the tone of those statements, and compare them to the first statement you wrote on this post. Are you thinking that as “God reads and judges the heart”, he is refusing to forgive?

Perhaps you would prefer that the meaning of pride remain “vague” so that you don’t have to figure out how to incorporate it into your psychotheology?

You know, when I described you as “argumentative, incorrigible, and loveable”, I may have left out the word “cantankerous”.

Cantankerous, and lovable!

And actually, quite intelligent and well-intended. And probably a great fellow to know in person!

 

[bsy]

He was a thief, and he was motivated by money, but I think in this case it was something more. Or he imagined that he would get more money and power by becoming a ruler in the new Kingdom. If it was only money, why not just keep dipping into the community purse?

Hello there gaunophore,

We may speculate other reasons like Judas was initially attracted to the signs and wonders performed by Christ, but it has no direct scriptural backings. Sometimes, one will be surprise at the motivations for crime. A murderer these days will kill for a few hundred dollars. And because the betrayal was motivated by greed, the man who betrayed must be a man of greed, a thief…

One of the reasons why the Pharisees plotted against Jesus was out of envy. Envy because Jesus was gaining more followers. * “The Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples…” Jn4:1.* We can then deduce that, for the accusers, it ultimately boiled down to monetary concerns – reduced income.

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[OneSheep]

Dear guanophore

The crowd did not have “sufficient awareness” and Jesus observed that they did not. As He observed, “they did not know what they were doing”.

What did they not know?

Do you know me well enough now to know my answer to that question?

God Bless you, and have a good sleep.

 

[guanophore]

You proposed that Judas was seeking to have Jesus be put into power (a theory as good as any). This is not “wrong” in his eye, correct?

If this was the case, he rationalized to himself that betraying him (which he did know was wrong) was worthwhile to produce the desired result.

 As you may remember, I don't think that Judas wanted Jesus in power.  Instead, I am thinking that he saw Jesus as a threat.

I just can’t reconcile this with his despair over betraying innocent blood. If Jesus was a threat, how is his blood innocent?

 In either case, Judas did not know that what he was doing was wrong, for if he saw Jesus as a threat, then he intended to dispose of that threat.

How could anyone spend three years with Jesus, watching him almost daily deal with accusations and threats, some nearly fatal, and still not know it is wrong to “dispose” of others? I just can’t accept that.

 If Judas saw Jesus as a power he wanted to assist, (to his own benefit) then he was still not seeing "the sinful character of the act."  In either case, then, he was not seeing "sinful character", he was seeing a benefit.  Feel free to disagree!

I will respect that you need to excuse him from culpability.

Again, when Jesus said, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." What did the crowd not know?  I am really interested in your answer to that question.

He was not referring to the crowd, he was referring to those who were driving in the nails.
The crowd was not allowed near the crucifixion.

Are you detecting a splinter in my eye? Sure, I may have a few.

I wouldn’t characterize it that way. We all perceive the world according to our belief systems/framework. I believe that God gives sufficient grace to every person so that they are able to know and choose right from wrong. This informs the way I understand the actions of others.

It is not a "conviction".  It is a conclusion based on observation.  As you can see from this post, it is a well-founded conclusion, even though it remains temporary.

Conviction, belief system, perceptual framework, however you label it, you have a preconceived notion that filters your observation. Everyone has them. I have the conviction that what was passed down to us from the Apostles has been infallibly preserved in the Church. Each person has the capacity to place their faith in God, or willingly and knowningly reject God. You do not accept that this is part of the apostolic faith. In other words “we see it differently”.

 Is there a scripture scholar you know of that says Jesus' statement, "Forgive them, bor they know not what they do" was not applied to all those who wanted Him crucified?  I'm not ruling it out, but your version is the first I have ever heard.  Can you provide a link , maybe?

Jesus testified before Pilate that those who handed him over had the “greater sin” (not excusing Pilate from sin either). Both Peter and Stephen preached to members of “the crowd” about their culpability.

“You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always resisting the Holy Spirit; as your ancestors did, so do you. 52Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They even killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become. 53You received the law under the direction of angels and yet have not kept it.” (Acts 7:51)

I just don’t see how anyone can read this passage and still beleive the persons Stephen was addressing were not willfully and knowingly rejecting God.

Judas was a betrayer, and a participant in His death.

 Yes, Judas realized his error afterwards.  Before that, he was more blind, or ignorant, or both.

I accept that you need to believe this in order to support your psychotheological framework.

So, what reasons did Judas have for rejecting God's grace?

As was pointed out above, we can only speculate. I think they are the same as we all have, summarized in the seven deadly sins: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. This list is not comprehensive, but any one or combination of several may have been in play.

When Jesus said "forgive them, for they know not what they do, what did the crowd crucifying Him not know?

Jews were forbidden by law to crucify, or inflict any death penalty. The crowd did not crucify him. It was a small cohort of Roman soldiers.

There’s that speck again.

We all suffer from confirmatinal bias. I believe that people can knowingly and willingly reject God. This conviction influences how I understand human behavior. I don’t know that it can be called a shortcoming. It is just how human beings operate. The shortcoming is not being willing to see that we have it. We think we are not blind…

 

[guanophore]

A person will only ask for help with their blindness if A)they know they are blind and B) they do not want to be blind. Why would they want to be blind, guanophore? Wait, I know, you are going to say “pride”:

There are many reasons people do not want to remember/be aware of what is in our psyche.

Studies show that we get a neurological “happy” lift when we dismiss views that oppose our beliefs. What happens in the mind is no different than winning a game.

No wonder I am so eager to read your posts!

Now, have you just read that last paragraph and thought, “his views are worthless, I win!”?

No, I don’t experience it this way at all. On the contrary, reading your posts has enabled me to understand why your world view is so essential to your psychological well being. Therefore what might seem to me like denial of the Catholic faith is of extreme value and worth to you.

Look at the tone of those statements, and compare them to the first statement you wrote on this post. Are you thinking that as “God reads and judges the heart”, he is refusing to forgive?

I am not sensing a “tone”, sorry.

I don’t think I claimed anywhere that God is refusing to forgive. People refuse to accept his forgiveness. Those who refuse Him die in their sins.

Dear guanophore

The crowd did not have “sufficient awareness” and Jesus observed that they did not. As He observed, “they did not know what they were doing”.

What did they not know?

Do you know me well enough now to know my answer to that question?

I am sure you may have a great number of possibilities that excuse them for their behavior. Unfortunately that approach does not square with what is written in scripture.

22Men of Israel, listen to these words: This Jesus the Nazarene was a man pointed out to you by God with miracles, wonders, and signs that God did among you through Him, just as you yourselves know. 23Though He was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him…36Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah! 37When they heard this, they came under deep conviction and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Brothers, what must we do?“38Repent,” Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. " Acts 2

I am sure there was plenty they did not know, but they knew sufficient to be culpable for their sin of participation in Jesus’ death.

 

[OneSheep]

If this was the case, he rationalized to himself that betraying him (which he did know was wrong) was worthwhile to produce the desired result.

Good Morning!

So, this was your answer to the possible scheme that Judas had of turning Jesus in, and by some miraculous chain of events, Jesus would come to power and Judas would be there also. When one uses the word “rationalize”, though, one is saying that a person is “making excuses”. If putting Jesus in power was Judas’ goal, then he was not needing to “make excuses”. He had a good plan in mind, and he could answer for it without need of “excuses”, for his intent was pure.

Again, I do not think this was Judas’ plan, I think he saw Jesus as a threat for the same reason that the Pharisees saw Him as a threat. Yes, even though Judas was with Him for three years, Jesus’ most “threatening” words were more recent (as well as His presence in Jerusalem) correct ? So, Judas sees Jesus as a threat (dangerous) and turns Him in. Is it betrayal to turn in a person you see as a threat to society? Well, yes it is, but if a person sees such betrayal as a benefit to society, then it is understandably seen as “right” in Judas’ eyes. Shooting someone is wrong, for example, but it is understandable to do so when the victim is a threat to society. Judas may have been thinking “he needs to be slowed down!”, but did not know the ton of wrath awaiting Jesus. Yes, desire for the money may also have been a factor, contributing to his blindness. This is my benefit-of-the-doubt scenario.

The WCS is that Judas had been tagging along with Jesus for 3 years simply for the money, and when he had an inkling that the gravy train was almost over, he decided to do it for the money because “If I don’t do it, someone else will, so I may as well get the dough”. This is the characterization of a person that is extremely blind and ignorant, and Jesus may have seen him as a “project” when he called him in the first place. I think the WCS is somewhat ruled out by the grief that he felt when he saw what they were doing to Jesus, but who knows? perhaps Judas finally woke up.

I just can’t reconcile this with his despair over betraying innocent blood. If Jesus was a threat, how is his blood innocent?

It depends on the use of “innocent”. It could be that Judas simply meant “not worthy of this”. Judas may simply not have known that Jesus would be mistreated, and suddenly snapped out of his blindness. (somewhat) Humans make all kinds of errors in their blindness. It is a bit puzzling.

He was not referring to the crowd, he was referring to those who were driving in the nails.
The crowd was not allowed near the crucifixion.

You have continued to present no basis for this claim, guanophore. If you follow the footnotes on this website:

usccb.org/bible/mt/5:44#48005044

And look up the footnotes to Luke 23:34,

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do…

It takes you to these words as a reference:

Matt 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.

So, according to the Bishops, Jesus was referring to His enemies, and the crowd was his enemy. What reference do you have for your claim?

I wouldn’t characterize it that way. We all perceive the world according to our belief systems/framework. I believe that God gives sufficient grace to every person so that they are able to know and choose right from wrong. This informs the way I understand the actions of others.

Now you are sounding less judgmental, thank you.

Conviction, belief system, perceptual framework, however you label it, you have a preconceived notion that filters your observation. Everyone has them. I have the conviction that what was passed down to us from the Apostles has been infallibly preserved in the Church. Each person has the capacity to place their faith in God, or willingly and knowningly reject God. You do not accept that this is part of the apostolic faith. In other words “we see it differently”.

Yes, the observation that people knowingly and willingly reject God is not contrary to our apostolic faith! In addition, the observation that people do not knowingly and willingly reject God is not contrary either. Yes, we see it differently, and we can respect those differences, correct? They are both sincere viewpoints.

Judas was a betrayer, and a participant in His death.

Yes, in that sense he was one of the enemies referred to by the Bishops.

As was pointed out above, we can only speculate. I think they are the same as we all have, summarized in the seven deadly sins: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. This list is not comprehensive, but any one or combination of several may have been in play.

That was your answer to this question:
So, what reasons did Judas have for rejecting God’s grace? (and then committing suicide)

The answer you gave did not answer the question I asked, but let me explain the question. What reason did Judas have, in his mind, for rejecting God’s grace? "I am rejecting God’s grace because_____________. "

Of course you don’t know Judas’ mind, just speculate according to what you know about people.

We all suffer from confirmatinal bias. I believe that people can knowingly and willingly reject God. This conviction influences how I understand human behavior. I don’t know that it can be called a shortcoming. It is just how human beings operate. The shortcoming is not being willing to see that we have it. We think we are not blind…

None of us sees perfectly, yes, as St. Paul observed of himself.

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t think I claimed anywhere that God is refusing to forgive. People refuse to accept his forgiveness. Those who refuse Him die in their sins.

Yes, and you are saying that people have “sufficient awareness” in such refusal. What I am saying is that people who have “sufficient awareness” will not refuse. People do not want to die, guanophore, it is a simple observation of human nature. When they do want to die, their awareness is very limited, or they are blind. You disagree. The way to resolve is through your answer to the question for Judas above. Fill in the blank, please.
quanophore:

I am sure there was plenty they did not know, but they knew sufficient to be culpable for their sin of participation in Jesus’ death.

Yes, there was plenty they did not know. What did they not know? Acts 2 does not shed light on this. When you have wanted harm on someone, did you fully know their value at the time of such wanting?

Yes, culpability was there in terms of participation, and Jesus forgave them. And since He said “they know not what they do” He was also observing that their knowledge was insufficient to make an accurate choice.

What did they not know, guanophore? Or, try this question: What could they have known, that the apostles knew, that would have put them in a different mindset? What did the apostles know that the crowd did not?

 

[guanophore]

So, this was your answer to the possible scheme that Judas had of turning Jesus in, and by some miraculous chain of events, Jesus would come to power and Judas would be there also. When one uses the word “rationalize”, though, one is saying that a person is “making excuses”. If putting Jesus in power was Judas’ goal, then he was not needing to “make excuses”. He had a good plan in mind, and he could answer for it without need of “excuses”, for his intent was pure.

LOL. Is that so far over the top? Perhaps.

But no, rationalizing is the process of convincing ourselves that our thinking and choices are the correct ones, or the best under the circumstances. I agree that Judas was not “making excuses”. I am sure he thought he had a good plan in mind, but I don’t think there is any such thing as “pure intentions”.

  Is it betrayal to turn in a person you see as a threat to society?

Not necessarily, which is why this perspective does not seem consistent with the evidence.

Well, yes it is, but if a person sees such betrayal as a benefit to society, then it is understandably seen as “right” in Judas’ eyes. Shooting someone is wrong, for example, but it is understandable to do so when the victim is a threat to society. Judas may have been thinking “he needs to be slowed down!”, but did not know the ton of wrath awaiting Jesus. Yes, desire for the money may also have been a factor, contributing to his blindness. This is my benefit-of-the-doubt scenario.

There seems to be room on the thread for wild speculation.

It occurs to me that the formulations of such scenarios probably say more about us than about Judas.

The WCS is that Judas had been tagging along with Jesus for 3 years simply for the money, and when he had an inkling that the gravy train was almost over, he decided to do it for the money because "If I don't do it, someone else will, so I may as well get the dough".  This is the characterization of a person that is extremely blind and ignorant, and Jesus may have seen him as a "project" when he called him in the first place.  I think the WCS is somewhat ruled out by the grief that he felt when he saw what they were doing to Jesus, but who knows? perhaps Judas finally woke up.

A person who listens to Jesus teaching and watches His life every day for three years cannot qualify for invincible ignorance. This only applies to those who have not been exposed to the Truth.

It depends on the use of “innocent”. It could be that Judas simply meant “not worthy of this”. Judas may simply not have known that Jesus would be mistreated, and suddenly snapped out of his blindness. (somewhat) Humans make all kinds of errors in their blindness. It is a bit puzzling.

Well, your scenario has Judas believing Jesus was a threat to society, which means his blood cannot be innocent. Judas knew just as well as everyone else what happened to persons deemed a threat to society. He walked by as many crucified people as everyonen else.

Matt 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.

So, according to the Bishops, Jesus was referring to His enemies, and the crowd was his enemy. What reference do you have for your claim?

Certainly the crowd took the part of His enemy at his “trial” before Pilate. The same people that greeted Him with palm branches, yelling for him to be crucified. I certainly believe we should pray for those who make themselves enemies of God.

These people were not present at the crucifixion.

Yes, the observation that people knowingly and willingly reject God is not contrary to our apostolic faith! In addition, the observation that people do not knowingly and willingly reject God is not contrary either. Yes, we see it differently, and we can respect those differences, correct?

It is a contrary position to the apostolic teaching. It would be disingenuous of me to affirm that otherwise. I respect your right to hold it. I can agree to disagree with you, as I do all those who espouse doctrines contrary to the Apostolic Faith.

Yes, in that sense he was one of the enemies referred to by the Bishops.

You seem to be suggesting that one can become an enemy of Christ and yet not “willingly and knowingly” do so. You even seem to believe that one can spend every day with Jesus for three years, and still turn away from Him in ignorance. It truly boggles the mind.

That was your answer to this question:
So, what reasons did Judas have for rejecting God’s grace? (and then committing suicide)

The answer you gave did not answer the question I asked, but let me explain the question. What reason did Judas have, in his mind, for rejecting God’s grace? "I am rejecting God’s grace because_____________. "

I already addressed this further up the thread. I am not at all sure it had much to do with reasoning at all. It may have been a very emotional response. Are you suggesting that Judas did not fall into the sin of despair, and that he never rejected God’s grace?

None of us sees perfectly, yes, as St. Paul observed of himself.

Which, in the psychotheological framework of OneSheep seems to indicate that no one can ever knowingly and willingly reject God.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, and you are saying that people have "sufficient awareness" in such refusal.  What I am saying is that people who have "sufficient awareness" will not refuse.

Certainly Catholic Answers Fora are replete with ideas that contradict the teaching we have received from the Apostles. You share the stage with a plethora of like minded persons when you say this say.

It is impossible for me to read the preaching of Peter and Stephen from the passages I posted above and not see that the crowds bore guilt in the crucifixion. This is because I approach the text with a particular lens that affects the way I interprete it. You have a different lens, so you come out in a different place.

People do not want to die, guanophore, it is a simple observation of human nature.  When they do want to die, their awareness is very limited, or they are blind.  You disagree.

I do not disagree at all!! God created us with a will for self preservation. Even Jesus agonized in the Garden. Suicidal people, a population I encounter intimately on a daily basis, do tend to have a very myopic view of their situation. They have many blindnesses on many levels. This does not change my belief that every human person is given sufficient grace to respond to the command of God to repent and be saved. God does not command what He does not enable us to do.

The way to resolve is through your answer to the question for Judas above.

I think not, OS. You see, all we can do is speculate about Judas, since we have insufficient information,and we cannot look into his heart. For me, the resolution comes in accepting what was passed down to us by the Apostles in the Once for All Divine Deposit of Faith. This revelation by God of Himself is infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. As a result, I can be confident that what has been revealed is His Truth, whether I understand it, agree with it, or not.

God has created us with free will, so that we can reject this deposit of faith if we wish.

Yes, there was plenty they did not know. What did they not know? Acts 2 does not shed light on this. When you have wanted harm on someone, did you fully know their value at the time of such wanting?

You seem to be reaching to grasp what they did not know, rather than hold them responsible for what they did know. Do you not believe that some who greeting Him with palm branches and Hosanna’s were not also in the crowd yelling for crucifixion?

Yes, culpability was there in terms of participation, and Jesus forgave them. And since He said “they know not what they do” He was also observing that their knowledge was insufficient to make an accurate choice.

In that case I guess those passages where Peter and Stephen find them culpable must be among those you consider not to be the actual inspired and inerrant Word of God, but among those passages you believe the errors of men “slipped into the text” and are misrepresenting God’s point of view?

What did they not know, guanophore?  Or, try this question: What could they have known, that the apostles knew, that would have put them in a different mindset?  What did the apostles know that the crowd did not?

That question will put you into a double bind, because Judas knew what had been revealed to the other apostles. So that would make him culpable. Who can you sacrifice on the altar of unknowing? Judas, or the crowd? You can’t have it both ways with this question.

 

[OneSheep]

But no, rationalizing is the process of convincing ourselves that our thinking and choices are the correct ones, or the best under the circumstances. I agree that Judas was not “making excuses”. I am sure he thought he had a good plan in mind, but I don’t think there is any such thing as “pure intentions”.

And if such convincing seems to contradict the conscience, then the rationalizing is “making excuses” to his own conscience. But that scenario, his intentions were pure to him, (I failed to add), so such making excuses was not necessary to him.

There seems to be room on the thread for wild speculation.

It occurs to me that the formulations of such scenarios probably say more about us than about Judas.

Yes, it does! And when we speculate, we shine the light of awareness onto the shadows. Jesus said, “Seek and ye shall find.” This is seeking, guanophore.

A person who listens to Jesus teaching and watches His life every day for three years cannot qualify for invincible ignorance. This only applies to those who have not been exposed to the Truth.

Truth comes by way of relationship, guanophore. Relationships can fall apart. If Judas’ fear or resentment was triggered in some way, then he would have been blinded to the truth. This is why the only way to determine the nature of the ignorance is to address all the possibilities of what was going through his mind. “Qualifiy” is not according to some rubric of years and exposure. Hearing is not knowing. “Should have known” only pushes a moral rubric, it does not explain what actually happens.

Well, your scenario has Judas believing Jesus was a threat to society, which means his blood cannot be innocent. Judas knew just as well as everyone else what happened to persons deemed a threat to society. He walked by as many crucified people as everyonen else.

What happened, then, was a repentance of sorts, at least a partial one. First, he turns Jesus over, later he regrets it. Judas learns something between those two occurrences. A change has taken place in his knowing, or at least in his access to truth. He became less blind. Do you have a better explanation as to why he changed his mind? He would not have done what he did if he had known what would happen, or had been aware of his own reaction to what would happen. You cannot deny this, guanophore. Yes, he “should” have known better, but circumstances were such that he was blinded in some way. I have yet to find an example of “vincible ignorance” where part of the cause of such is not invincible, a preemptive blindness.

Certainly the crowd took the part of His enemy at his “trial” before Pilate. The same people that greeted Him with palm branches, yelling for him to be crucified. I certainly believe we should pray for those who make themselves enemies of God.

These people were not present at the crucifixion.

And still, I have provided evidence from the Bishops that "forgive them, for they know not what they do " is directed toward all of Jesus’ enemies, and not just the soldiers. You have provided no resource that says otherwise, only your opinion. Is this a formulation to fit your “psychotheology”? Your need to make everything fit your pespective? How do you like that question applied to your observations? Doesn’t it sound like I am questioning your sincerity or claiming to know what you are thinking? Guanophore, please “do unto others as you would have done unto you.”

It is a contrary position to the apostolic teaching. It would be disingenuous of me to affirm that otherwise. I respect your right to hold it. I can agree to disagree with you, as I do all those who espouse doctrines contrary to the Apostolic Faith.

You have never put forth any resource directly saying that my observation “people do not knowingly and willingly reject God” is against apostolic teaching. You have only said that such contrariness is implied in a definition, and that you fear the result of such an observation. So, what it appears that you are doing is not making an accurate statement. It would be more accurate to for you to say, “In my opinion, it is a position contrary to the apostolic teaching” and “I can agree to disagree with you, as I do all those who I surmise espouse doctrines contrary to the Apostolic Faith.” To do otherwise is to claim for yourself an infallible interpretation of Apostolic Faith. Please, have some humility.

You seem to be suggesting that one can become an enemy of Christ and yet not “willingly and knowingly” do so. You even seem to believe that one can spend every day with Jesus for three years, and still turn away from Him in ignorance. It truly boggles the mind.

Perhaps it boggles the unopen mind?

I already addressed this further up the thread. I am not at all sure it had much to do with reasoning at all. It may have been a very emotional response. Are you suggesting that Judas did not fall into the sin of despair, and that he never rejected God’s grace?

Yes, he was in despair, and perhaps he rejected God, we can speculate. But the question remains as to whether he “knowingly and willingly” rejected. So, shall we go with the possibility, for now, that he had no reasoning? If so, he was behaving irrationally, correct?

 

[OneSheep]

It is impossible for me to read the preaching of Peter and Stephen from the passages I posted above and not see that the crowds bore guilt in the crucifixion. This is because I approach the text with a particular lens that affects the way I interprete it. You have a different lens, so you come out in a different place.

Waiit a minute. I was saying that “forgive them, for they know not what they do” refers to His enemies, and the crowd was his enemy. Of course, they bore part of the responsibility, and Jesus forgave them. This forgiveness is one of the most important parts of the entire passion, in my view. It is this forgiveness that taught me and inspired me in forgiving all people I hold anything against, regardless of their repentance. Please, do not imply that this inspiration is meant only for me. It is an inspiration for all of us. It is a means to holiness.

I do not disagree at all!! God created us with a will for self preservation. Even Jesus agonized in the Garden. Suicidal people, a population I encounter intimately on a daily basis, do tend to have a very myopic view of their situation. They have many blindnesses on many levels. This does not change my belief that every human person is given sufficient grace to respond to the command of God to repent and be saved. God does not command what He does not enable us to do.

Ah, yes, I see what you are saying, and I agree. And that “enabling” may not come to fruition until the microseconds of death, and I am quite open to the possibility of such fruition after death, as the Eastern Orthodox believe. However, if “salvation” is what we are saying begins during life on Earth, then no, such a response may not not occur during the vast majority of earthly life. When people get the whole picture, they make the right choice. Judas never got the whole picture, at least not from what is evident in the Gospels.

I think not, OS. You see, all we can do is speculate about Judas, since we have insufficient information,and we cannot look into his heart. For me, the resolution comes in accepting what was passed down to us by the Apostles in the Once for All Divine Deposit of Faith. This revelation by God of Himself is infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. As a result, I can be confident that what has been revealed is His Truth, whether I understand it, agree with it, or not.

And the Truth is that Judas knowingly and willingly rejected God? You say this as something passed down from the Apostles? Part of the “Deposit of Faith”?

In that case I guess those passages where Peter and Stephen find them culpable must be among those you consider not to be the actual inspired and inerrant Word of God, but among those passages you believe the errors of men “slipped into the text” and are misrepresenting God’s point of view?

I agree that Acts 7:51-53 has a condemning tone. Condemnation is the opposite of forgiveness, so those words do not reflect God’s love, but instead expresses the frustration and sentiment of those who wrote those passages. They are human.

That question will put you into a double bind, because Judas knew what had been revealed to the other apostles. So that would make him culpable. Who can you sacrifice on the altar of unknowing? Judas, or the crowd? You can’t have it both ways with this question.

Hearing is not knowing. I can hear that the Church claims Jesus to be Lord, but the real knowing comes in relationship. Do you not remember Jesus criticizing the scribes for trying to find God in written words, but that such finding would be truly found in relationship with Him? Hearing is not relationship, guanophore. What did the other apostles know that Judas did not? I am not talking about words, either written or spoken. What did the rest of the apostles know that Judas (before contrition), and the crowd, did not? Or, what did the crowd not know?

Please, just answer the question instead of commenting on the question or answering a question in return.

Thanks!

 

[tonyrey]

Satan cannot do this unless he is given permission/a foothold. Judas left the door open. I think you are right about the moment. Jesus also called Peter “satan” and told him to “get thee behind me”, but Peter was able to humble himself, rather than letting Satan enter through pride.

Jesus told Judas to do what he had to do! That speaks for itself…

I am not sure we can assume this. He regretted the consequences of his action, and recognized that he betrayed innocent blood, but regret does not necessarily equal repentance. Sometimes people regret they got caught, and regret the consequences, but have no remorse about what they did.

Judas was not caught nor would he have been punished by the Jews or Romans for what he had done. “I have betrayed innocent blood” is irrefutable evidence of repentance.

Sorry doesn’t necessarily mean repentance either. One can have remorse about their guilt, but that does not get them to turn to God for forgiveness. Repentance means doing a 180 - going from faithlessness to faith. If Judas had thrown himself on the mercy of God, he would not have fallen into despair. Peter also betrayed Christ, but responded differently.

There was a vast difference between their betrayals. Judas had every reason to despair… I’m sure if you had been in his position you would have thought you deserved to go to hell. I know I would…

I agree that he was devastated about the consequences, maybe broken hearted, and can even concede that, had he known, he may have chosen differently, ,but that still does not mean he was repentant. If the guilty do not take that step of throwing themselves onto the mercy of God, regret has no value.

Regret has infinite value in the sight of God especially when it is followed by self-sacrifice. Judas was so tormented by his sense of guilt he knew there was nothing he could do to atone for his treachery - and he was right. Jesus forgave his executioners because they didn’t know what they were doing. I’m sure He forgives Judas for the same reason.

Judas made the deal on his own, without any instruction from Jesus. What evidence do you have that he believed he was fulfilling prophesy?

Jesus had just told the apostles quite clearly.

Most of them could not figure out how the Messiah suffering and dying was necessary.

But they understood what he said.

There are no mistakes so fatal that we are trapped by them in the sense that we are separated from God’s mercy.

That doesn’t stop some one from believing it and Judas had ample reason to do so.

We cannot know the state of his heart and soul at the moment of his death, but he rejected God deliberately when he chose to betray him.

People often commit sins without thinking they are rejecting God.

He rationalized it and made it “ok” in his head and heart. He convinced himself it was the right thing to do.

If he was possessed he didn’t need to convince himself. He was blinded to the truth by Satan. Moreover if we cannot know the state of his heart and soul at the moment of his death we have no grounds for believing Judas is in hell.There is no evidence whatsoever that he rejected the Holy Spirit. All the apostles heard Jesus say the prophecy that He would be fulfilled. There was nothing difficult to understand about that.

Are the speculations of others allowed but not mine? I dont’ believe Judas meant to harm Jesus, so when asked the question “why” I look for another motive.

]Judas didn’t mean to harm Jesus he was definitely not guilty.

I am not contradicting St. John, because I don’t see these at all contradictory. Satan enters into us when we are oriented toward the world, the flesh, and the devil. When our passions are disordered (away from God) we are predisposed to act selfishly, and in an evil manner.

That doesn’t mean we are necessarily damned.

Jesus stated that those who were His could not be snatched out of His hand. If Judas was not protected from Satan, it was because he jumped out of Jesus’ hand on his own. Satan cannot do this unless he is given permission/a foothold. Judas left the door open. I think you are right about the moment. Jesus also called Peter “satan” and told him to “get thee behind me”, but Peter was able to humble himself, rather than letting Satan enter through pride.

Jesus didn’t tell Judas to “get thee behind me” because He knew the prophecy had to be fulfilled. Giving way to temptation need have nothing to do with pride. People become obsessed with what they are going to get instead of thinking about themselves.

Well of course it is! Isn’t that the point of the thread? Are the speculations of others allowed but not mine? I dont’ believe Judas meant to harm Jesus, so when asked the question “why” I look for another motive.

Speculations need to be consistent. The very fact that you believe Judas didn’t mean to harm Jesus implies that he was not as evil as you imply, that his repentance was utterly sincere and that he is certainly not in hell.

You seem determined to act as the devil’s advocate and believe the worst of Judas instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt…

 

[tonyrey]

Hi tonyrey,

We can agree to disagree since no one really knows, right?

My position is based on the most logical conclusions on clues given in the Scripture. In my opinion, “Satan entered him” means the devil has already induced (tempted) Judas. Jn13:2. Judas, by his own free will, succumbed to greed. No one can served two masters, and money was Judas’ prime motivator. He was called a “thief” in Jn12:6, untrustworthy as keeper of the money bag. You contended that the amount is small, but most thieves start small, right? Judas was a man of opportunity, and when opportunity came knocking, he gave in to temptation; and yes, he might have thought that Jesus would escape execution. Judas did repent but for the wrong reason. He knew the consequences of betraying an innocent blood – that he will be counted as the “condemned.” Matt27:3. My position is that Judas did not repent to renew his friendship with Jesus. Jesus is love and merciful, but the Lord is also JUST. The Lord will always forgive a truly contrite heart who seek a genuine reconciliation with Him; at the same time, cast out those who fail. Jn15:6. Judas condemned himself by betraying the Innocent Blood who counted him as a trusted friend, a disciple.

There is no evidence that Judas foresaw the consequences of betraying Jesus and there is plenty of evidence that he was possessed by Satan - if we are to believe St John’s words. He was blinded to the truth and horrified when he heard Jesus had been condemned. Like the vast majority of people who have heard about his treachery he was convinced his crime was unforgivable. if I had been in his position I’m absolutely sure I would have felt the same. Even if he didn’t realise his Master was divine he had seen so many people miraculously cured he knew Jesus was full of love and compassion for the poor, sick, blind, deformed, paralysed and possessed. I’m sure that like the other apostles he was dedicated to His Master because he had followed Him faithfully for three years on long journeys on foot in rugged terrain and harsh weather. He could have backed out with some excuse but he persevered because he had met the most lovable person who has ever lived on this earth.

That is why he must have been possessed to commit an act of treachery. That is also why as soon as he heard Jesus had been condemned he threw the money back into the Temple saying “I have betrayed innocent blood” and immediately hanged himself in despair. He didn’t even hesitate as anyone else might have done because he knew at once there was nothing else he could do to atone for being an accomplice to the men who were having Jesus tortured and crucified. Judas killed himself to escape from himself because he loathed himself and wanted to cease to exist. Judas didn’t reject God; he rejected himself. He was misguided but he had every reason to be. I’m sure God loves him far more than the self-righteous hypocrites who think and behave as if they are the chosen ones destined to go to heaven. Judas wasn’t guilty of pride but excessive humility and a sense of total unworthiness. He didn’t realise killing himself was the only way he could prove his total dedication to his Master - or perhaps subconsciously he did… After all, what else could he have done? It is understandable that he gave way to despair because it was and is the most hideous act in history to betray the Son of God.

 

[tonyrey]

Correction:

Since Judas didn’t mean to harm Jesus he was definitely not guilty.

 

[tonyrey]

Do you think it’s unlikely? Suppose he fell on some jagged rocks…

I agree.

That seems more likely than tripping.

I didn’t mean Judas tripped over rather than hanged himself! But perhaps you didn’t mean that either.