Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?

[HelenRose]

Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?
its suicide.

before you answer ‘pride’ please think about how pride is applicable against a certain sure death. in every case fear wins.

Have you ever said or even thought this, “I’ll be damned if you or anyone else is going to tell ME what to do.”?

If you have, then you can have a certain understanding of what goes on in the mind of Satan.

Hatred has no boundries and does not care what the outcome is. Hatred is simply what hatred is - Satan.

 

[Shlomo]

Have you ever said or even thought this, “I’ll be damned if you or anyone else is going to tell ME what to do.”?

If you have, then you can have a certain understanding of what goes on in the mind of Satan.

Hatred has no boundries and does not care what the outcome is. Hatred is simply what hatred is - Satan.

Well, how would you explain Satan’s behavior as described in the book of Job?

 

[CHEEZBURGAH]

they’re omniscient and they knew god would beat them, but they wanted to show that you need to stand up to god so he doesn’t oppress you. I believe there is more freedom in Hell.

 

[HelenRose]

Well, how would you explain Satan’s behavior as described in the book of Job?

I don’t try to explain the twisted mind of evil I just try to recognize evil for what it is - hatred aka Satan.

You didn’t answer my question. "Have you ever said, “I’ll be damned if you or anyone else is going to tell Me what to do”?

 

[BrunoMaria]

given their higher and different intellect, once the angels had decided against God, that their choice was forever irreversible, sealed for eternity. If they weren’t so vicious I think I’d pity them.

Well, I dare to doubt if the Angels had a higher and different intelligence than we. But what aggravated the case is: That these Angels with their head Lucifer, had been with God for eternities, and so “knew” God to the extend any creature is allowed to know God - be it an Angel or we once we are in heaven with God.
I understand you think the mere idea of rebelling against God was enough to be condemned forever. Not really, for we know from Isaiah to Revelation, that they actually got down to action and there was a war between the forces of Lucifer and these of Michael - both leading Arch-Angels.

However; it’s only a little while until we will see God, and if we lived in God’s word, will be in heaven. Then we know all details not about this but about all other things we pondered a bit too much about in our time on earth. So I’d generally advise to stick to the Gospel and these things we don’t really get, instead of misinterpreting - simply wait ‘til we see clearly. For as St. Paul said in 1Cor 13,12: Now we only see dimly, but then we’ll see it all in absolute clearness. And in so many aspects we then will slap our forehead and say: - “Oh no, it was so clear, why didn’t I comprehend! It all stood there in the Holy Bible”

Yours
Bruno

 

[Skye_Ariel]

I like your idea that it had not occurred to the rebellious angels that the consequence would be that harsh in case of defeat. But I think most theologians agree thta given their higher and different intellect, once the angels had decided against God, that their choice was forever irreversible, sealed for eternity. If they weren’t so vicious I think I’d pity them.

True it’s because they have been with God for probably millions of years our time and looked in His face all that time and because of their higher intelligence, that their rebellion is much deeper than what we humans who have never seen God face to face would think of rebellion. They knew the truth and lived the truth and to turn their back on that was deeper than anything we can imagine.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?
its suicide.

before you answer ‘pride’ please think about how pride is applicable against a certain sure death. in every case fear wins.

It’s not about “winning”.

Have you ever worked for a boss that you didn’t agree with? Was it so persistent that you ended up leaving your job? Did someone else get the coveted promotion instead of you?

They believed that they had a rightful place, that was given to others instead. They firmly believed that God was wrong in how He managed the universe. Regardless of the cost, they chose what they chose because they couldn’t live with that universe.

I have to admit that I have made choices that made me suffer greatly, but I was willing to do so because I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t.

Something to think about.

 

[AlienAngel]

I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with any of the posts so far. It’s just not logical. Lucifer was a Seraphim; the highest order of Angel & closest to God. God IS Love, which would mean that Lucifer (child of light) would have been more like God being so close to God. Pride is said to be the sin that caused “The Fall” & Lucifer stating “I will not serve!”, this is where St. Michael the Archangel (perhaps been promoted now??) threw Lucifer out of Heaven. If Lucifer was so close to God, how is it possible for him to make such a mistake? And why isn’t it forgivable?We are sinners & disobey God daily in thought & action. Should we feel pity for Lucifer? If God forgives us for sinning, why can’t the angels be forgiven too?

 

[zro_x]

I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with any of the posts so far. It’s just not logical. Lucifer was a Seraphim; the highest order of Angel & closest to God. God IS Love, which would mean that Lucifer (child of light) would have been more like God being so close to God. Pride is said to be the sin that caused “The Fall” & Lucifer stating “I will not serve!”, this is where St. Michael the Archangel (perhaps been promoted now??) threw Lucifer out of Heaven. If Lucifer was so close to God, how is it possible for him to make such a mistake? And why isn’t it forgivable?We are sinners & disobey God daily in thought & action. Should we feel pity for Lucifer? If God forgives us for sinning, why can’t the angels be forgiven too?

Yes, we could probably pity lucifer. The fallen angels can’t be forgiven because they don’t want to be forgiven.

 

[AlienAngel]

zro x, Even if the fallen angels don’t want to be forgiven, they like us would already have been forgiven by God?? It just isn’t logical that an Angel so close to pure LOVE, God Almighty, would not only have pride, but then never seek forgiveness. Am I the only one who finds that strange?

 

[zro_x]

zro x, Even if the fallen angels don’t want to be forgiven, they like us would already have been forgiven by God??

I don’t think God forgives us until we ask for forgiveness, but I could be wrong about that. I do think that god loves satan and the fallen angels, though.

** It just isn’t logical that an Angel so close to pure LOVE, God Almighty, would not only have pride, but then never seek forgiveness. Am I the only one who finds that strange?**

The better “stuff” a person is made out of, the more he is able to do good and evil. C.S. Lewis described it this way:

The better stuff a creature is made of- the cleverer and stronger and feer it is- then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best- or worst- of all.

How did the Dark Power go wrong? Here, no doubt, we ask a question to which human beings cannot give an answer with any certainty. A reasonable (and traditional) guess, cased on our own experiences of going wrong, can, however, be offered. The moment you have a self at all, there is a possibility of putting yourself first- wanting to be the centre- wanting to be God, in fact. That was the sin of Satan: and that was the sin he taught to the human race.

 

[AlienAngel]

zro x, That is understandable that with greater knowledge comes greater potential for both good & evil. However, I’ve also heard that angels are smarter than mankind. So again it seems like a Seraphim, smarter than us, chose to disobey God. It’s also said that because angels dwell in eternity, when the Fallen angels decided to turn away from God. That their decision is final. . no chance for redemption. Does that seem too harsh?

 

[zro_x]

zro x, That is understandable that with greater knowledge comes greater potential for both good & evil. However, I’ve also heard that angels are smarter than mankind. So again it seems like a Seraphim, smarter than us, chose to disobey God.

right. It’s my understanding that knowledge in no way affects the free will.

** It’s also said that because angels dwell in eternity, when the Fallen angels decided to turn away from God. That their decision is final. . no chance for redemption. Does that seem too harsh?**

no more harsh than the fact that there is no chance for redemption for us if we don’t die in a state of grace.

 

[RobbyS]

The angels aren’t omniscient and therefore lack the ability to be sure whether they will win or not.

And Angels have no fear or any other emotion. Have to be a St. Thomas to get an handle on this sort of being.

 

[fitz1984]

Free will.
Unwillingness to serve.
Humans becoming the Sons and Daughters of God.
Pridefulness.
Just like anyone of us that fall into a sin of any kind its usually a combination of things that leads us up to that point. Since they are pure spirits there sin (aka choice to seperate from God) is eternal.

 

[BrunoMaria]

AlienAngel:

It just isn’t logical that an Angel so close to pure LOVE, God Almighty, would not only have pride, but then never seek forgiveness. Am I the only one who finds that strange?

Aren’t we so close to God’s love too, BUT SIN ALL THE SAME?! Well, ok - they saw God and doubts where excluded. But to them this was “the ususal” and not known other. Same as with the kids of a king or billionaire or the offsprings of a dustman. Both take life as it is as normal and don’t think twice about how any other situation would be. So, to them seeing God was normal, and so was being one of God’s creation.
Now - there wasn’t any other creature or being, but God and His Angels. As well there was no other situation but God and His Angels in the ambiance (heaven) God had made for all of them and they didn’t know other.
In such “everyday life” plus free will, odd thought like “what would be when?” or “is this all?” - “why don’t we…” and others; even an odd thought of major changes wouldn’t be out of reach. A coup, a revolt, even a “military putch” seemed possible within the proceedings.
True - it sounds kind of odd to connect Heaven with any military idea. Though - let’s be aware, that God is omnipotent and His Arch Angels are powerful to enforce God’s will - almost as powerful as God’s word.
Now the legions of Arch-Angel Lucifer wight have thought, that more Legions of Arch Angel Michael would join, and if after all they where defeated and things back to God, God in His love would vail all that happened with His grave and forgiveness, because God is all-forgiving.
God though, as God Himself said and Jesus Christ repeated so often; IS NOT ALL-FORGIVING. If He was, He had not given us the commandments, now had Jesus so often warned us. See Mt 18,6 for one. And eternal condemnation is fact as final consequence for evildoers who didn’t repent.

AlienAngel:

Even if the fallen angels don’t want to be forgiven

What would make anyone think they wouldn’t want to be forgiven? Quite the contrary it true, for God’s forgiving had not cast them out of heaven down to earth as we learned from Isajah 14,12 - Luke 10,18 and others like the revelation - and later into the new place named hell, where it’s so unbearable, that to avoid being send back to hell, daemons asked Jesus in Mt 8,32, that to be send into a herd of swines and they where granted this, so they came out and went into the swine.

AlienAngel:

they like us would already have been forgiven by God??

Oops - that idea sounds like some kind of automatism. We can not automatically expect God to forgive us any sin. I so often read in all sorts of forums, GOD IS LOVE AND THEREFORE CAN’T ELSE BUT LOVE. Oh, what a big mistake! God’s forgiveness takes a lot of true preconditions, without which any forgiveness is illusion. And Jesus’ warnings of the “option” to be eternally condemned, isn’t just blether, nor simple thread to make us behave. It’s simply fact as any word Jesus is absolute truth. THE TRUTH itself.

AlienAngel:

It just isn’t logical that an Angel so close to pure LOVE, God Almighty, would not only have pride, but then never seek forgiveness. Am I the only one who finds that strange?

The one and only thing Lucifer and his daemons would REALLY seek and desire, is God’s forgiveness and none of us knows if they asked for forgiveness right after their defeat. But he who challenges God, is lost! Jesus Christ told that Satan in Mt 4,7: ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’

Yours
Bruno
MERRY CHRISTMAN TO ALL OF YOU
IN REMEMBRANCE OF JESUS FINALLY COMING TO US 2000 YEARS AGO AND
STARTED HIS REIGN OVER ALL THERE IS.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Okay you do make a good point BrunoMaria about the angels being in God’s presence every day and how they would see it as normal, I didn’t think about that but that’s true. It’s just like how many of us take things for granted until we stop to think about how others don’t even have what we may have, so the fallen angels didn’t think about it the way we would after we’ve lived our life not seeing God then seeing him in the afterlife. So that’s an interesting point.

 

[MJDorry]

The biggest source of confusion for me is when it was that they got a choice. I was under the impression that angels were designed as creatures without free will, whose wills were the will of God.

 

[zro_x]

The biggest source of confusion for me is when it was that they got a choice. I was under the impression that angels were designed as creatures without free will, whose wills were the will of God.

I had the same understanding, but I’ve since heard from Frank Sheed’s Theology and Sanity and another apologist on this forum that the angels did not always have the beatific vision. Angels started out by having to be tested just as we were. Now, some angels have the beatific vision, while the rest are in hell.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

The biggest source of confusion for me is when it was that they got a choice. I was under the impression that angels were designed as creatures without free will, whose wills were the will of God.

They definitely have free will just like we do. I believe they all were tested when the rumors of the rebellion started to go around in heaven and the fallen angels went around trying to recruit as many on their side as they could. They all were tested and made their choice at that time, and 1/3 made the wrong choice, the other 2/3 had sense and made the correct choice. Then those fallen angels were kicked out of heaven and came to earth to try to turn mankind against God, trying to spread their evil everywhere.