Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?

[Sarcelle]

I had the same understanding, but I’ve since heard from Frank Sheed’s Theology and Sanity and another apologist on this forum that the angels did not always have the beatific vision. Angels started out by having to be tested just as we were. Now, some angels have the beatific vision, while the rest are in hell.

I am reading St. Faustina’s diary where she asks Jesus why the angels were not given the chance for repentance after the rebellion. Jesus replied that their knowledge of God was deeper than that of the greatest of human saints.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

I am reading St. Faustina’s diary where she asks Jesus why the angels were not given the chance for repentance after the rebellion. Jesus replied that their knowledge of God was deeper than that of the greatest of human saints.

I agree!

 

[AlienAngel]

The one and only thing Lucifer and his daemons would REALLY seek and desire, is God’s forgiveness and none of us knows if they asked for forgiveness right after their defeat. But he who challenges God, is lost! Jesus Christ told that Satan in Mt 4,7: ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’

Yours
Bruno
MERRY CHRISTMAN TO ALL OF YOU
IN REMEMBRANCE OF JESUS FINALLY COMING TO US 2000 YEARS AGO AND
STARTED HIS REIGN OVER ALL THERE IS.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. First is that Satan/Lucifer wasn’t an Archangel like St. Michael. He was a Seriphim, which is the highest order of angels & closest to God. Also, all angels are smarter than humans, so they would have nothing to fear from us. The question remains, How could an Seriphim Angel, being closest to God who is Most Humble, commit the sin of pride? Also, we can’t make the assumption that the “battle” in Heaven is a physical one as we would perceive it here on Earth. “Battle in Heaven” might be something completely different than what we think a battle is for we live inside of “time & space” and can not understand “being” in eternity.
Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[AlienAngel]

I am reading St. Faustina’s diary where she asks Jesus why the angels were not given the chance for repentance after the rebellion. Jesus replied that their knowledge of God was deeper than that of the greatest of human saints.

Why did Jesus visit St. Faustina? Didn’t he say that He would return just once more at “The Final Judgement”? Why would Jesus come back an extra time? Isn’t that impossible as The Truth can not contradict Himself? Did St. Faustina lie? Also, I do love the chaplet of Mercy, so I’m not trying to disrespect St. Faustina.
If Christ did visit St. Faustina, How did He do it without breaking His promise? And why would he do it?

 

[CrimsonThorn]

Why did Jesus visit St. Faustina? Didn’t he say that He would return just once more at “The Final Judgement”? Why would Jesus come back an extra time? Isn’t that impossible as The Truth can not contradict Himself? Did St. Faustina lie? Also, I do love the chaplet of Mercy, so I’m not trying to disrespect St. Faustina.
If Christ did visit St. Faustina, How did He do it without breaking His promise? And why would he do it?

Remember that Jesus, after His ressurection, came back and spent time and lived with the Apostles too. And that was physical. That wasnt His Second Coming, so neither were the appearances to Faustina His Second Coming, but He may very well have appeared to her.

It seems that The Second Coming is more of an event than it is a literal number, as in the amount of times Jesus appears.

 

[fhansen]

Why did Jesus visit St. Faustina? Didn’t he say that He would return just once more at “The Final Judgement”? Why would Jesus come back an extra time? Isn’t that impossible as The Truth can not contradict Himself? Did St. Faustina lie? Also, I do love the chaplet of Mercy, so I’m not trying to disrespect St. Faustina.
If Christ did visit St. Faustina, How did He do it without breaking His promise? And why would he do it?

Jesus told His disciples that He’d be with them always.

 

[AlienAngel]

Remember that Jesus, after His ressurection, came back and spent time and lived with the Apostles too. And that was physical. That wasnt His Second Coming, so neither were the appearances to Faustina His Second Coming, but He may very well have appeared to her.

It seems that The Second Coming is more of an event than it is a literal number, as in the amount of times Jesus appears.

I have to disagree. Christ stayed on earth for 40 days before the Ascension into Heaven, from there He will return once to judge the living & the dead. As for Jesus saying He would always be with us, Wasn’t He referring to Himself as God? This being confirmed by the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost, & it’s the Holy Spirit that is always with us?
So, back to St. Faustina. There have been several approved apparitions of The Blessed Virgin Mary, but has there been more than just the one visit by Christ to St. Faustina?

 

[CrimsonThorn]

I have to disagree. Christ stayed on earth for 40 days before the Ascension into Heaven, from there He will return once to judge the living & the dead. As for Jesus saying He would always be with us, Wasn’t He referring to Himself as God? This being confirmed by the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost, & it’s the Holy Spirit that is always with us?
So, back to St. Faustina. There have been several approved apparitions of The Blessed Virgin Mary, but has there been more than just the one visit by Christ to St. Faustina?

The Second Coming = The End of the World, it’s not the number of times Jesus is allowed to appear.

If Jesus came back and stayed with the apostles before ascending, then wouldn’t that make the end of the world actually a third coming, if we take it so literal?

Also keep in mind that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are all the same. They are the Holy Trinity. If one is present, they’re all present and Jesus promises that He will be with us always until the end of the ages.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

I am reading St. Faustina’s diary where she asks Jesus why the angels were not given the chance for repentance after the rebellion. Jesus replied that their knowledge of God was deeper than that of the greatest of human saints.

That is a fascinating thought, and makes their rebellion all the more puzzling. Perhaps we shall never really fully understand.

:twocents:

 

[Pat_Albertson]

I am reading St. Faustina’s diary where she asks Jesus why the angels were not given the chance for repentance after the rebellion. Jesus replied that their knowledge of God was deeper than that of the greatest of human saints.

I did a search and found the passage. It was on page 307 out of 441 in the pdf St. Faustina Kowalski - Diary.pdf:

1332 Second day. As I was meditating on the sin of the Angels and their immediate punishment, I asked Jesus why the Angels had been punished as soon as they had sinned. I heard a voice: Because of their profound knowledge of God. No person on earth, even though a great saint, has such knowledge of God as an Angel has. Nevertheless, to me who am so miserable, You have shown Your mercy, O God, and this, time and time again. You carry me in the bosom of Your mercy and forgive me every time that I ask Your forgiveness with a contrite heart.

 

[mystagogia]

Why did the angels rebel against an obviously superior force? Philosophical, moral and theological arguments aside, I’ll take up purely the tactical rationale.

Their action is very much akin to what we see in the world today: terrorism. Terror and guerilla tactics are the choice method of belligerents who face a superior foe they cannot possibly hope to beat on his own terms. The aim of these insurgents is not victory in a total war, rather, the goal is to win concessions. That is, they seek to change the nature of their superior foe, to force accommodations from him.

The goal is not to crack God’s perfect armor perforce, but rather to get him to crack it himself. What better weapon for a demon than God’s love for us?

 

[JerryZ]

I have to disagree. Christ stayed on earth for 40 days before the Ascension into Heaven, from there He will return once to judge the living & the dead. As for Jesus saying He would always be with us, Wasn’t He referring to Himself as God? This being confirmed by the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost, & it’s the Holy Spirit that is always with us?
So, back to St. Faustina. There have been several approved apparitions of The Blessed Virgin Mary, but has there been more than just the one visit by Christ to St. Faustina?

I would only like to point to you that Jesus appeared to a certain nasty nasty jew called Saulo. Said jew was on it’s way to Damascous when this apparition happened, He was blinded by the light from Jesus whom asked him “Saulo, Saulo why do you persecute ME”

Saulo was blind, scared and confused, he was persecuting those pesky newfangled Christians!
The rest is history.
Hopefully that will give food for thought.

The day of judgement will be the manifest appearence of Jesus in all His Glory for ALL to see.

Jesus can appear to anyone privately if He choses to and He has done so many times in the past.

 

[Ion]

They definitely have free will just like we do. I believe they all were tested when the rumors of the rebellion started to go around in heaven and the fallen angels went around trying to recruit as many on their side as they could. **They all were tested **and made their choice at that time, and 1/3 made the wrong choice, the other 2/3 had sense and made the correct choice. Then those fallen angels were kicked out of heaven and came to earth to try to turn mankind against God, trying to spread their evil everywhere.

God doesn’t need a test, God knows before everything. From our point of view (or from angels) it is like a test. Somehow, the fallen ones, make proof for angels, they really have free will, and responsibility.

 

[AlienAngel]

The Second Coming = The End of the World, it’s not the number of times Jesus is allowed to appear.

If Jesus came back and stayed with the apostles before ascending, then wouldn’t that make the end of the world actually a third coming, if we take it so literal?

Also keep in mind that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are all the same. They are the Holy Trinity. If one is present, they’re all present and Jesus promises that He will be with us always until the end of the ages.

Jesus coming back from the dead with the apostles would be the first time. That’s why the Final Judgement is called “the Second Coming”. Plus your answer doesn’t respond at all to St. Faustina’s visit??

 

[AlienAngel]

I would only like to point to you that Jesus appeared to a certain nasty nasty jew called Saulo. Said jew was on it’s way to Damascous when this apparition happened, He was blinded by the light from Jesus whom asked him “Saulo, Saulo why do you persecute ME”

Saulo was blind, scared and confused, he was persecuting those pesky newfangled Christians!
The rest is history.
Hopefully that will give food for thought.

The day of judgement will be the manifest appearence of Jesus in all His Glory for ALL to see.

Jesus can appear to anyone privately if He choses to and He has done so many times in the past.

Not since the Ascension of Jesus into Heaven, where He sits at the right hand of the Father. Saul’s conversion to Paul was by the Voice of God. I think that differs from Jesus Himself coming in person to St. Faustina. How is St. Faustina’s visits known to be true? Do you know of Jesus coming in person to other saints?

 

[BrunoMaria]

How is St. Faustina’s visits known to be true? Do you know of Jesus coming in person to other saints?

By now, answers and questions here seem to be a totally new topic - far off rebellious Angels, now turning to Jesus Himself.

He who asks for evidence, is well advised not to believe (whatever he questions) at all; here as to “How is St. Faustina’s visits known to be true?” He, as we all will see one day anyhow.
And yes, Jesus in Person did see other humans, and even many of them. See the biography e.g. of one out of many:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Marie_Alacoque

 

[Skye_Ariel]

The one and only thing Lucifer and his daemons would REALLY seek and desire, is God’s forgiveness and none of us knows if they asked for forgiveness right after their defeat. But he who challenges God, is lost! Jesus Christ told that Satan in Mt 4,7: ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’

Yours
Bruno
MERRY CHRISTMAN TO ALL OF YOU
IN REMEMBRANCE OF JESUS FINALLY COMING TO US 2000 YEARS AGO AND
STARTED HIS REIGN OVER ALL THERE IS.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. First is that Satan/Lucifer wasn’t an Archangel like St. Michael. He was a Seriphim, which is the highest order of angels & closest to God. Also, all angels are smarter than humans, so they would have nothing to fear from us. The question remains, How could an Seriphim Angel, being closest to God who is Most Humble, commit the sin of pride? Also, we can’t make the assumption that the “battle” in Heaven is a physical one as we would perceive it here on Earth. “Battle in Heaven” might be something completely different than what we think a battle is for we live inside of “time & space” and can not understand “being” in eternity.
Merry Christmas to everyone!

Good post. Yeah also the fallen angels were not forgiven because they were more aware of what they were doing than mankind. When lucifer rebelled, he didn’t have anyone to influence him to rebel, there was no rebellion or evil one before him so that right there makes his rebellion a totally different level than mankind’s fall. Also mankind fell because of being influenced/tricked by lucifer to disobey. If it wasn’t for lucifer, Adam & Eve would have stayed in obedience. So that’s why God sent Jesus to die for our sins and why we have forgiveness, because mankind was influenced/tricked into into disobedience.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

That is a fascinating thought, and makes their rebellion all the more puzzling. Perhaps we shall never really fully understand.

:twocents:

I did a search and found the passage. It was on page 307 out of 441 in the pdf St. Faustina Kowalski - Diary.pdf:

Exactly! Angels are smarter than us the way we are smarter than cats & dogs and animals will never understand things the way we do which is why animals can’t sin, they don’t understand things the way we do. Animals can’t sin, we are higher than animals and can sin but we can be forgiven and angels are higher than we are and they can sin but their sins are not forgiven. The higher you are, the greater the consequences of your sin. We can wrack our brains all we want but some things we may never understand, if we could understand it then we would be in the same situation as the fallen angels and held to the same standards of unforgiveness. What did Jesus say when they were crucifying Him? “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” The angels knew what they were doing.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

God doesn’t need a test, God knows before everything. From our point of view (or from angels) it is like a test. Somehow, the fallen ones, make proof for angels, they really have free will, and responsibility.

Oh I didn’t mean it that way. Not that kind of test. No God did not test them, I meant that their allegiance was tested, they had to make a choice, they were not tested by God but by lucifer. No, God does not need to test anyone since He already knows everything you will ever do. I agree that the fallen ones show proof that angels have free will and responsibility.

 

[bellsonhertoes]

A few thoughts in no particular order:

1. I think the best explanation I have ever come across regarding the fall of the angels is that the angels fell when they refused to subordinate their personal good (the greatness due to them individually based on the nature they were created with) to the common good of God’s eternal plan of salvation (Th Incarnation of the Word, which would, for the greatness of God entering creation, force the angels to forgo their personal position and worship God made Man). The ability to sin arose because thought they saw their personal good wholly, they did not see how the Incarnation was, although a common good, also better for them. They could know the Incarnation without knowing sin because you can know an effect without knowing its proximate cause.
2. The angelic intellect is such that it cannot revoke a choice once made. Men have matter. That effects our emotions, how we know the world, our ability to make choices and think. For example, a lack of brain development impedes an infant’s ability to do calculus, coupled with a lack of motor skills and education. Angels do not learn first from matter and do not have intellects so bound to matter that they have that kind of changability in their nature. The only potential they have is for a further intellectual act which supersedes their natural act based in their nature, and that is beatitude. This “not God” aspect of their nature is what allowed the potential to fall. However, because the do not have matter, at the moment of choice they have no natural possibility of changing their mind. I also think it is their nature which rules out a supernatural potential to change.