Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?: An Investigation

[Lily_Bernans]

Indeed He did not, and, apart from Jesus’ claim of divinity, was probably the idea He espoused that we need to be “saved” from hell by the Messiah in the first place. Judaism is not and never was a religion based on the need for salvation. Not that the Pharisees did not believe in an afterlife: it was just that the focus of the religion was on earthly salvation by doing G-d’s will, which included among many other things personal atonement for sins. The Messiah was to issue in a period of intensified studying of the Law on earth, not a heavenly salvation.

Which prophecies did Jesus not fulfill?

How do the Jewish people reconcile intense studying,etc. with the prophecy in Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

You may be right,but I think the pharisees were also guilty of dishonesty and using the law of Moses to suit their personal interests.Jesus pointed out to them time and again the darkness in their hearts and the shame of being exposed by Jesus pushed them to eliminate him.

I think you’re right. They were filled with pride. They didn’t want an itinerant preacher with no formal education stealing their thunder, e.g., working miracles, gathering followers, etc.

By the time of Jesus’ birth, Jewish expectations of the Messiah had moved away from the prophecies in Holy Scripture.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Which prophecies did Jesus not fulfill?

How do the Jewish people reconcile intense studying,etc. with the prophecy in Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22?

There are good reasons to suppose Isaiah 53 is about Israel, though I can certainly understand how the Greek fathers thought it “fit” with the passion narratives. Try reading it as though the nation of Israel is the subject of the prophecy and it makes a lot of sense, and is clearly supported by observable reality and history.

Pslam 22’s subject is more ambiguous, but it could describe anyone enduring spiritual and physical torment. Suffice it to say, it applies to most of us from time to time!

In general the explanation I usually give to Christians when they ask me why I don’t believe Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled any prophecies is this story:

The story is about a prince who becomes a master archer. The prince excels to such a point that he believes he’s the finest archer in the world. On his journey homeward, the prince stops in a small town to get something to drink. Across from the tavern, the prince sees a barn with painted targets along the entire side of the barn. And, there is a single arrow, dead center in every target on the barn.

How could such a master archer be living in this small town? Finally, the prince sees this young boy and asks him. “It was me,” says the boy. “Show me,” demands the prince.

They stand. The boy takes aim. The boy hits the side of the barn, far away from any of the targets. Then, the boy runs into the barn. He emerges with a brush and a can of paint. He paints a solid circle around the arrow he has just shot, then two more circles to form a target.

“That’s how I do it,” said the boy. “First, I shoot the arrow, and then I paint the target. That’s how every storyteller does it.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

There are good reasons to suppose Isaiah 53 is about Israel, though I can certainly understand how the Greek fathers thought it “fit” with the passion narratives. Try reading it as though the nation of Israel is the subject of the prophecy and it makes a lot of sense, and is clearly supported by observable reality and history.

Pslam 22’s subject is more ambiguous, but it could describe anyone enduring spiritual and physical torment. Suffice it to say, it applies to most of us from time to time!

In general the explanation I usually give to Christians when they ask me why I don’t believe Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled any prophecies is this story:

The story is about a prince who becomes a master archer. The prince excels to such a point that he believes he’s the finest archer in the world. On his journey homeward, the prince stops in a small town to get something to drink. Across from the tavern, the prince sees a barn with painted targets along the entire side of the barn. And, there is a single arrow, dead center in every target on the barn.

How could such a master archer be living in this small town? Finally, the prince sees this young boy and asks him. “It was me,” says the boy. “Show me,” demands the prince.

They stand. The boy takes aim. The boy hits the side of the barn, far away from any of the targets. Then, the boy runs into the barn. He emerges with a brush and a can of paint. He paints a solid circle around the arrow he has just shot, then two more circles to form a target.

“That’s how I do it,” said the boy. “First, I shoot the arrow, and then I paint the target. That’s how every storyteller does it.

You are right. That is what storytellers do, and some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled do seem a stretch. However, he did fulfill more than 400 prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures, prophecies that were in place long before his birth, and some are very specific. The odds of anyone other than the Messiah doing that are so great as to be almost non-existent. Most are out of the realm of human control.

You don’t believe he fulfilled any prophecies or you don’t believe he fulfilled all of the prophecies? Or maybe you don’t even believe in the prophecies?

Thank you for the information and your perspective.

 

[OneSheep]

Indeed He did not, and, apart from Jesus’ claim of divinity, was probably the idea He espoused that we need to be “saved” from hell by the Messiah in the first place. Judaism is not and never was a religion based on the need for salvation. Not that the Pharisees did not believe in an afterlife: it was just that the focus of the religion was on earthly salvation by doing G-d’s will, which included among many other things personal atonement for sins. The Messiah was to issue in a period of intensified studying of the Law on earth, not a heavenly salvation.

Oops, I missed this one earlier. The commentary from my Cathoiic Bible says the same about Jesus’ use of “salvation”. He was not using “salvation” in terms of the afterlife, He was using it in terms of being free from slavery (repenting from sin) and living a full life, a perfect life.

So, in terms of the afterlife, “salvation” used by Jesus was freedom from the fear of death. Jesus was right in line with teachings about the Messiah, by my understanding, except that there were misconceptions to overcome, i.e. that the Messiah would be a political leader, etc. And, to address the hesitation that the Pharisees had concerning Jesus’ claim of divinity, the argument is that Jesus never made such self-proclamation, it was made by followers, and we modern followers continue to uphold His divinity as truth.

Anyway, all of us, pharisees included, are capable of misconceptions and we often see beliefs contrary to our own as untruths or blasphemous. We naturally resent threats to our human belief systems, especially ones that appear to uphold peace and order in society. This is certainly a big part of the Pharisees hesitation to humble themselves before Jesus, and I think we are agreeing on this.

Thanks, Meltzerboy

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Oops, I missed this one earlier. The commentary from my Cathoiic Bible says the same about Jesus’ use of “salvation”. He was not using “salvation” in terms of the afterlife, He was using it in terms of being free from slavery (repenting from sin) and living a full life, a perfect life.

So, in terms of the afterlife, “salvation” used by Jesus was freedom from the fear of death. Jesus was right in line with teachings about the Messiah, by my understanding, except that there were misconceptions to overcome, i.e. that the Messiah would be a political leader, etc. And, to address the hesitation that the Pharisees had concerning Jesus’ claim of divinity, the argument is that Jesus never made such self-proclamation, it was made by followers, and we modern followers continue to uphold His divinity as truth.

Anyway, all of us, pharisees included, are capable of misconceptions and we often see beliefs contrary to our own as untruths or blasphemous. We naturally resent threats to our human belief systems, especially ones that appear to uphold peace and order in society. This is certainly a big part of the Pharisees hesitation to humble themselves before Jesus, and I think we are agreeing on this.

Thanks, Meltzerboy

I do think the Jewish misconceptions were as you described, One Sheep, misconceptions. I don’t think there is anything in the Hebrew Scriptures that says the Messiah would be a great political figure, etc. I think Jewish expectations had drifted far from the Scriptural prophecies by the time Jesus began his ministry.

 

[OneSheep]

Are you asking why didn’t the Pharisees believe Jesus was God?

If so…Meltzer Boy explained well why someone who is Jewish would not believe Jesus is divine/God.

Perhaps some did…but for those who did not and do not…why would they “humble themselves” before him?

.

Hi DaddyGirl, and welcome!

Yes, we can tie the “humble” question to the “believe Jesus was God” question. And yes, it makes no sense for them to humble themselves before Christ if they did not see His divinity.

The question came from the last thread, when a poster was saying that the pharisees knowingly and willingly rejected God, and now that I am thinking about it, the question is a bit out-of-context, and the question itself may beg a question!!

Did Jesus’ followers necessarily humble themselves before Him? Indeed, did not Jesus humble Himself before His followers? He washed their feet, he served. He practiced what He preached in terms of the salvation for those who are humble. We can say that His followers greatly valued the power of Word, and His words continue to hold great power today, a power found in love of all, forgiveness, mercy, etc.

Thanks, good point!

 

[OneSheep]

No, it just seems like he hates God. In fact, he says he does. He has said he rejects God and all religion and wants nothing to do with them.The rest of his family is not super-religious, and none hates God. He hates God because he allows sin and pain in the world, although it’s been explained to him many times by many people that man is the author of sin, not God. He understands that intellectually, but won’t accept it. He does not have an outwardly “bad” life, either, i.e. his family is doing well and he’s not struggling with illness, money issues, etc.

Hi Lily,

So, can you analyze my train of thought here, and find the places where I am making an incorrect assessment?

He is perceiving that God is in some way the author of sin, which is a very relevant notion, right? He has a misconception about God. So, is he “knowingly” rejecting God, or is a relevant part of his rejection the fact that his own perception of God as loving and merciful is compromised by his misconception?

And, since he has the misconception, is he behaving from a position of “knowing”? Well, not really, right? He believes an untruth, so his knowledge, and therefore his rejection, fit the same scenario as those who hung Jesus. He does not know what he is doing. Given what he believes, his rejection of God is understandable, God as he knows Him violates his conscience.

Do you see what I mean? If not, feel free to counter my assessment.

I wonder why he cannot accept an alternative way of looking at God, sin, etc.? There is something more, I am thinking.

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

“That’s how I do it,” said the boy. “First, I shoot the arrow, and then I paint the target. That’s how every storyteller does it.

I love that story, PC!

My own faith in Christ now has nothing to do with prophesies and miracles. Miracles can be explained or dismissed. Prophesies depend on the eye of the beholder. My own faith in Christ is based on living His words: loving God and neighbor, loving enemies, forgiving everyone, practicing humility, doing what I can to manifest the Kingdom. To me, Christ cannot be philosophically, theologically, or scientifically proven. He is because I know Him, and I know Him by following.

And this is the same emphasis coming from our Church leaders, right? I love this quote, have I shown it to you?

Paul does not say to the Athenians: ‘This is the encyclopedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth.’ No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopedia. The truth is an encounter—it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth. We receive the truth when we meet it.

Pope Francis

And to me, we “meet it” through prayer, through love, through life…

 

[OneSheep]

Because the Pharisees were full of pride and felt that they had a lot to lose. They held a lot of power among the people, and so they were unwilling to submit to another Jew claiming to have authority over them. Jesus was a threat to their power, to the control they held over others.

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees…

Good Morning and Welcome Nigel!

I agree, but I’m not sure about the “full of pride” part, I don’t know what that means, specifically, in this case. Yes, I think that Jesus was a threat to them in some way, a threat to their power. As Meltzerboy explained, they had understandable reasons to think of Jesus as a blasphemer. After all, Jesus was a bit critical of the Pharisees, was He not?

Thanks.

Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah according to the Pharisees therefore why would they humble themselves?

I look at it this way, they were a persecuted minority and their religious leaders kept them together all through their history, their Priests played a vital and MASSIVE role in ensuring their historical culture, religion and society stayed in tact. They had to be suspicious of this man claiming to be the Messiah. I’m sure they investigated him when they saw Jews following him and the crowds of thousands listening to him speak, they would have checked his lineage, his family, the Rabbis at his Temple, his teachings, his miracles etc

No, I don’t agree that it was all about power, a lot of it had to do with protecting their flock (rightly or wrongly) and ensuring they did not fall prey to false Messiahs.

I’m sure a few did wonder though when the curtain in the Temple tore as Jesus took his last breath.

Hi SAVINGRACE,

I agree, I don’t think it was all about power; they were also protecting the flock against falsehood, which was the same mentality of those who hung Jesus.

And we can all relate to the pharisees, right? All of us, by our God-given nature, want power, and all of us want to protect what we value. It’s all understandable.

Thanks

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You are right. That is what storytellers do, and some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled do seem a stretch. However, he did fulfill more than 400 prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures, prophecies that were in place long before his birth, and some are very specific. The odds of anyone other than the Messiah doing that are so great as to be almost non-existent. Most are out of the realm of human control.

You don’t believe he fulfilled any prophecies or you don’t believe he fulfilled all of the prophecies? Or maybe you don’t even believe in the prophecies?

Thank you for the information and your perspective.

I am not an expert in scripture, I have no special knowledge of Messianic prophecies, and I have no special insight into the texts. The debate within Judaism, and between Jews, Christians, and Muslims about the nature and content of Messianic prophecy is enough to make one’s head spin. I have examined some of the texts in translation and Hebrew along with Rabbinic commentary, and I personally find myself skeptical of the claim that Jesus fufilled such and such particular prophecies. I consider “400” prophecies to be a grossly inflated number. Upon examining the alleged prophetic texts in context (even just reading the whole “chapter”) I can’t avoid the suspicion that a lot of the prophecies are misinterpreted or at least overburdened by a prophetic interpretation. It seems to me there are always more obvious and less complex understandings of the texts. Yes, yes “dual fulfillment” and all that.

Ultimately, I personally believe the Messiah or Moshiach will do the following:

Be a Jewish man with a human father descended from David.
Literally establish the political and religious nation of Israel as the leader of the world under God.
Usher in an era of continuous and uninterrupted worldwide peace.
All human beings will recognize the one true God.
“Olam haba” will emerge perhaps during this time (a new world without suffering, death, or sin).

The evangelists claim Jesus of Nazareth did not have a human father. Israel has suffered greatly these past 20 centuries, and the same period has been one of relentless war rather than peace. Only some human beings recognize God, though both Islam and Christianity have spread knowledge of him far and wide to billions of people. As I see it, we still await the Messiah. May he come soon, today!!!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I am not an expert in scripture, I have no special knowledge of Messianic prophecies, and I have no special insight into the texts. The debate within Judaism, and between Jews, Christians, and Muslims about the nature and content of Messianic prophecy is enough to make one’s head spin. I have examined some of the texts in translation and Hebrew along with Rabbinic commentary, and I personally find myself skeptical of the claim that Jesus fufilled such and such particular prophecies. I consider “400” prophecies to be a grossly inflated number. Upon examining the alleged prophetic texts in context (even just reading the whole “chapter”) I can’t avoid the suspicion that a lot of the prophecies are misinterpreted or at least overburdened by a prophetic interpretation. It seems to me there are always more obvious and less complex understandings of the texts. Yes, yes “dual fulfillment” and all that.

Ultimately, I personally believe the Messiah or Moshiach will do the following:

Be a Jewish man with a human father descended from David.
Literally establish the political and religious nation of Israel as the leader of the world under God.
Usher in an era of continuous and uninterrupted worldwide peace.
All human beings will recognize the one true God.
“Olam haba” will emerge perhaps during this time (a new world without suffering, death, or sin).

The evangelists claim Jesus of Nazareth did not have a human father. Israel has suffered greatly these past 20 centuries, and the same period has been one of relentless war rather than peace. Only some human beings recognize God, though both Islam and Christianity have spread knowledge of him far and wide to billions of people. As I see it, we still await the Messiah. May he come soon, today!!!

Thank you, Pumpkin Cookie. I appreciate your thoughtful and honest answer.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Thank you, Pumpkin Cookie. I appreciate your thoughtful and honest answer.

No problem…it’s just my opinion. I can certainly see why billions of people believe Jesus is the Messiah and I also can understand why billions believe Muhammed was the Prophet. May God help all of us to know him!

 

[Kaninchen]

Anyway, all of us, pharisees included, are capable of misconceptions and we often see beliefs contrary to our own as untruths or blasphemous. We naturally resent threats to our human belief systems, especially ones that appear to uphold peace and order in society. This is certainly a big part of the Pharisees hesitation to humble themselves before Jesus, and I think we are agreeing on this.

I think the problem really arises when either side tries to ‘establish’ their position rather than just state it.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I think the problem really arises when either side tries to ‘establish’ their position rather than just state it.

That’s when the problems arise for sure!

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I think the problem really arises when either side tries to ‘establish’ their position rather than just state it.

 

[OneSheep]

I think the problem really arises when either side tries to ‘establish’ their position rather than just state it.

Well, that is one of the problems. It looks to me like Jesus was establishing a position against one already established, if I am using the concept correctly.

He certainly did not come commending the powers-that-be for a job well done.

 

[meltzerboy]

I love that story, PC!

My own faith in Christ now has nothing to do with prophesies and miracles. Miracles can be explained or dismissed. Prophesies depend on the eye of the beholder. My own faith in Christ is based on living His words: loving God and neighbor, loving enemies, forgiving everyone, practicing humility, doing what I can to manifest the Kingdom. To me, Christ cannot be philosophically, theologically, or scientifically proven. He is because I know Him, and I know Him by following.

And this is the same emphasis coming from our Church leaders, right? I love this quote, have I shown it to you?

Paul does not say to the Athenians: ‘This is the encyclopedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth.’ No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopedia. The truth is an encounter—it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth. We receive the truth when we meet it.

Pope Francis

And to me, we “meet it” through prayer, through love, through life…

Maybe what you express is not dogmatic enough for some, but I believe it is a great way to live one’s life regardless of one’s particular faith.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I am not an expert in scripture, I have no special knowledge of Messianic prophecies, and I have no special insight into the texts. The debate within Judaism, and between Jews, Christians, and Muslims about the nature and content of Messianic prophecy is enough to make one’s head spin. I have examined some of the texts in translation and Hebrew along with Rabbinic commentary, and I personally find myself skeptical of the claim that Jesus fufilled such and such particular prophecies. I consider “400” prophecies to be a grossly inflated number. Upon examining the alleged prophetic texts in context (even just reading the whole “chapter”) I can’t avoid the suspicion that a lot of the prophecies are misinterpreted or at least overburdened by a prophetic interpretation. It seems to me there are always more obvious and less complex understandings of the texts. Yes, yes “dual fulfillment” and all that.

Ultimately, I personally believe the Messiah or Moshiach will do the following:

Be a Jewish man with a human father descended from David.
Literally establish the political and religious nation of Israel as the leader of the world under God.
Usher in an era of continuous and uninterrupted worldwide peace.
All human beings will recognize the one true God.
“Olam haba” will emerge perhaps during this time (a new world without suffering, death, or sin).

The evangelists claim Jesus of Nazareth did not have a human father. Israel has suffered greatly these past 20 centuries, and the same period has been one of relentless war rather than peace. Only some human beings recognize God, though both Islam and Christianity have spread knowledge of him far and wide to billions of people. As I see it, we still await the Messiah. May he come soon, today!!!

In case anyone wants to know, and does not know, where, in the Bible, Pumpkin Cookie got the prophecies Jesus did not fulfill:

Be a human man with a human father who is descended from King David: Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1

Establish the political and religious nation of Israel as the leader of the world under God: Don’t really know

Usher in an era of continuous and uninterrupted worldwide peace: Isaiah 2:4

All human beings will recognize the one true God: Zechariah 14:9

Don’t think you had these:

Build the Third Temple: Ezekiel 37:26-28

Gather all Jews back to Israel: Isaiah 43:5-6

These are Jewish beliefs, of course. I don’t know if PC is Jewish, and I’m not asking. Catholics believe Jesus will fulfill these prophecies at his Second Coming, but even I think that’s a cop out, and I consider myself a devout Catholic, in love with Christ. I have my own feelings about the above passages, but I won’t go into them here. I’m not looking to change anyone’s beliefs or start an argument with them.

 

[meltzerboy]

In case anyone wants to know, and does not know, where, in the Bible, Pumpkin Cookie got the prophecies Jesus did not fulfill:

Be a human man with a human father who is descended from King David: Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1

Establish the political and religious nation of Israel as the leader of the world under Godon’t really know

Usher in an era of continuous and uninterrupted worldwide peace: Isaiah 2:4

All human beings will recognize the one true God: Zechariah 14:9

Don’t think you had these:

Build the Third Temple: Ezekiel 37:26-28

Gather all Jews back to Israel: Isaiah 43:5-6

These are Jewish prophecies, of course. I don’t know if PC is Jewish, and I’m not asking. Catholics believe Jesus will fulfill these prophecies at his Second Coming, but even I think that’s a cop out, and I consider myself a devout Catholic, in love with Christ. I have my own feelings about the above passages, but I won’t go into them here. I’m not looking to change anyone’s beliefs or start an argument with them.

Don’t forget that Jewish teaching about the nature of the Messiah and his purpose, among many other things, is based not only on the Written Law (Torah), which actually contains precious little about the Messiah, but also the Oral Law (Talmud) and, for some, the Kabbala. The vast majority of Jews are not sola Scriptura.