Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?: An Investigation

[SAVINGRACE]

In my experience, the delivery and tone changes when we take the time to understand and forgive, which is what Jesus asks of us. The way I look at it, my judging is a triggered reaction, I cannot stop it, but I can become aware of my judging and then take the steps to understand and forgive.

So, to me the “skill” part begins with the discipline and mindset to realize when I am resenting or condemning.

Thanks!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

In my experience, the delivery and tone changes when we take the time to understand and forgive, which is what Jesus asks of us. The way I look at it, my judging is a triggered reaction, I cannot stop it, but I can become aware of my judging and then take the steps to understand and forgive.

So, to me the “skill” part begins with the discipline and mindset to realize when I am resenting or condemning.

Thanks!

From me as well. Terrific insight!

 

[OneSheep]

For the record, the biggest entertainment would have been if you had seen the conversation I had with my son, the philosopher.

In the end, we concluded that a person can knowingly and willingly reject God, but at the same time (in the same instant) he cannot knowingly and willingly reject God.

Confusing?

It all depends on which definition we use for the word “knowingly”. If we use the word in the “propositional” sense, “he knows that…” , then yes, a person can “knowingly” reject God because he may know intellectually that what he is doing is wrong. When we use “that” after the word “know” we are using the word in the propositional sense.

However, if we use the word “knowingly” in the way that Jesus used the word “know” from the cross, no one ever knowingly rejects God because the word “know” means “affective knowing”, which means that the knowing includes emotional valuing. People do not reject what they value, and value of creation is truth. People do indeed sometimes value something false, but to the degree that they value something false, they do not affectively know what they are doing.

Make sense?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

For the record, the biggest entertainment would have been if you had seen the conversation I had with my son, the philosopher.

In the end, we concluded that a person can knowingly and willingly reject God, but at the same time (in the same instant) he cannot knowingly and willingly reject God.

Confusing?

It all depends on which definition we use for the word “knowingly”. If we use the word in the “propositional” sense, “he knows that…” , then yes, a person can “knowingly” reject God because he may know intellectually that what he is doing is wrong. When we use “that” after the word “know” we are using the word in the propositional sense.

However, if we use the word “knowingly” in the way that Jesus used the word “know” from the cross, no one ever knowingly rejects God because the word “know” means “affective knowing”, which means that the knowing includes emotional valuing. People do not reject what they value, and value of creation is truth. People do indeed sometimes value something false, but to the degree that they value something false, they do not affectively know what they are doing.

Make sense?

It makes perfect sense to me, and I’m the one who has the atheist ex-friend. I can tell you that he does not really know God. He does not value him, or he at least seems not to. I don’t want to judge him because I don’t know what is in his soul. He writes against God and religion, though, but he wants people to love one another. I have to wonder if he’s just angry with God and fails to realize that it is man who commits the sin, not God.

Edit: Sorry to intrude. I realize the question was not addressed to me.

 

[simpleas]

For the record, the biggest entertainment would have been if you had seen the conversation I had with my son, the philosopher.

In the end, we concluded that a person can knowingly and willingly reject God, but at the same time (in the same instant) he cannot knowingly and willingly reject God.

Confusing?

It all depends on which definition we use for the word “knowingly”. If we use the word in the “propositional” sense, “he knows that…” , then yes, a person can “knowingly” reject God because he may know intellectually that what he is doing is wrong. When we use “that” after the word “know” we are using the word in the propositional sense.

However, if we use the word “knowingly” in the way that Jesus used the word “know” from the cross, no one ever knowingly rejects God because the word “know” means “affective knowing”, which means that the knowing includes emotional valuing. People do not reject what they value, and value of creation is truth. People do indeed sometimes value something false, but to the degree that they value something false, they do not affectively know what they are doing.

Make sense?

You know that I have thought that we can never know if anyone K&WRG, and I’ve believed if a person has not experienced God in some way then they can not reject what they haven’t experienced. Just because they may have all the info in their heads, if they haven’t received that experience in their lives they can not reject God. On the other hand, we can reject much information in our heads!

You did make me think about freewill though. If we can not truly reject God with our will, then we are not truly free. We would always be bound to God, no matter what we did in order to reject, get away from God. Though I don’t know anyone who would want evil over good for their lives, its seems most everyone I’ve met seeks good, although we all have different ways we seek good, higher and lower morals etc, we all want goodness in the end.

Perhaps the Pharisees saw killing Jesus as a good thing, they were wiping out a blasphemer and thought this would be pleasing to God. Same with some people today, ethnic cleansing would be good and pleasing to God according to some written word.
We have moved on from the time of the Pharisees, they taught us a lesson.

 

[OneSheep]

It makes perfect sense to me, and I’m the one who has the atheist ex-friend. I can tell you that he does not really know God. He does not value him, or he at least seems not to. I don’t want to judge him because I don’t know what is in his soul. He writes against God and religion, though, but he wants people to love one another. I have to wonder if he’s just angry with God and fails to realize that it is man who commits the sin, not God.

Edit: Sorry to intrude. I realize the question was not addressed to me.

I agree with your assessment, though I am obviously not as familiar with the case. Have you been able to make the same observation universally? Is there ever a case where a human knowingly and willingly rejects God, when “knowingly” is used the way that Jesus did from the cross?

Thanks

 

[OneSheep]

You know that I have thought that we can never know if anyone K&WRG, and I’ve believed if a person has not experienced God in some way then they can not reject what they haven’t experienced. Just because they may have all the info in their heads, if they haven’t received that experience in their lives they can not reject God. On the other hand, we can reject much information in our heads!

Hi Simpleas,

Yes, we can reject much information, and a lot of such rejection is good.

You did make me think about freewill though. If we can not truly reject God with our will, then we are not truly free. We would always be bound to God, no matter what we did in order to reject, get away from God. Though I don’t know anyone who would want evil over good for their lives, its seems most everyone I’ve met seeks good, although we all have different ways we seek good, higher and lower morals etc, we all want goodness in the end.

Yes, we all want goodness in the end. And yes, God has created us with “free will”, it is not a matter of that we cannot reject God, but if such knowing and willing rejection of God ever happens. It is a matter of if it ever happens, as you know I am searching…

Perhaps the Pharisees saw killing Jesus as a good thing, they were wiping out a blasphemer and thought this would be pleasing to God. Same with some people today, ethnic cleansing would be good and pleasing to God according to some written word.
We have moved on from the time of the Pharisees, they taught us a lesson.

I agree, but I think it is obvious that we as a species have not en masse moved from the time of the Pharisees. We will not have completely made such a move until every person comes to the realization that all humans are beautiful and valuable, when there is such affective knowing that comes from understanding and forgiveness. I am not saying that I always see humans as beautiful and valuable, but I know that when I do not see such beauty and value, that I am living in an illusion. Understanding and forgiveness, of course, erase the illusion. Sorry to sound like a broken record…

Seeing the Pharisees as beautiful and valuable, through understanding, is hopefully a move in that direction.

 

[aclausen]

I agree with your assessment, though I am obviously not as familiar with the case. Have you been able to make the same observation universally? Is there ever a case where a human knowingly and willingly rejects God, when “knowingly” is used the way that Jesus did from the cross?

Thanks

I have a question. What does “reject God” mean?

 

[OneSheep]

I have a question. What does “reject God” mean?

Whew! You have to ask that question, eh? I’ll try to be brief.

For the person who equates God with law, then rejecting any of God’s laws may mean rejecting God.
For the person sees God in all creation, rejecting God may mean destroying or defacing something beautiful.
For the person who does not believe in God, it may mean rejecting belief in God. Of course, many people who believe in God would say the same.

If I had your set of experiences, I would also be an atheist. What I am observing is that we humans have good intent behind all that we do and believe. If something a human does turns out disrespectful/harmful, it is because we don’t know what we are doing, at least that is the way it looks from my chair here.

The question, translated to “atheist” goes like this: Does anyone ever knowingly and willingly harm anyone else? I use “knowingly” as inclusive of the affective, and inclusive of all that is relevant to the choice. it is a bit of a different question, but the same anthropology surfaces.

Thanks for asking, good question!