Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?: An Investigation

[Lily_Bernans]

Google can be your friend.

I think you’ll need to find somebody who is new to Internet discussion, it soon gets very boring and repetitive.

Oh, I know the answer. I was just interested in your take. But as I said, no one has to discuss what they don’t want to discuss. It’s fine.

Thanks!

Edit: I would never try to force anything out of such a cute bunny!

 

[Kaninchen]

Oh, I know the answer. I was just interested in your take. But as I said, no one has to discuss what they don’t want to discuss. It’s fine.

Thanks!

Edit: I would never try to force anything out of such a cute bunny!

It’s Miffy from the children’s books, Kaninchen is German for ‘rabbit’.

 

[OneSheep]

He knows that God has a plan for everyone’s life and that God does what is most fitting for us. He just wants to be the one to choose what is fitting for him. He doesn’t want God interfering in his life.

Hi Lily,

But we both know that this is just plain silliness. God’s “interference” gave him life in the first place. His mind is compromised by blindness, methinks.

No, he doesn’t despise all evil. He despises some good, too. For example, he hates all Muslims. Doesn’t matter if they are kind and generous people. He still hates them for no reason other than they are Muslim. If someone were to kill a group of kind and peaceful Muslims, he would be glad.

Well, in my view, this is the way the mind works. When we see people from the outgroup doing evil, we stereotype and devalue. It is an automatic thing that happens in the mind, proven innate with studies on infants. The outgroup is seen as worthless and disposable, it is a blindness. It happens to all of us.

Such was the same for those who hung Christ on the cross. The could not see His humanity, much less His divinity. They did not know God as you know Him, and neither does your friend. To the extent that I devalue any human, I do not know God.

He lives in the Canary Islands. His former boss publishes s small paper. G. will pick up all the papers for sale by the sea and throw them into the sea. He is big into revenge.

He is a slave.

We all have things in life we could resent. None of us knows God at the outset. I think he knows God as well as the rest of us. Trouble is, he wants to be God. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt. I had to break off the friendship because he is just so filled with hate. He even hates the Canarians and he lives on their island! He is from the UK, but hates the weather there.

I am not trying to argue, either. Just trying to clarify.

Okay, he knows God as well as the rest of us, except he does not know that God is alive and well in his former boss, Muslims, and in Canarians. Those are pretty big exceptions, right? I will grant you that we all have our share of misconceptions, and it would be unwise to elevate ourselves to having a much clearer picture of God than the next fellow, but there is some reality involved. Blindness is real, and your friend is blinded by resentment. When he suffers enough, he may consider forgiving, but in the mean time he is a slave, and what is needed is healing. I will pray for him.

So, does he “knowingly and willingly” reject God? In my own assessment, like those who hung Jesus, there are some very relevant aspects of “knowing” missing. He does not know that God dwells within those he hates, he does not see their beauty. Like those who hung Jesus, he has not forgiven, therefore he does not know what he is doing.

Tone check: these are observations, not accusations. When we resent, we are all subject to such blindness, right? And when I do not realize that I am burdened with such blindness, I hope that those around me can help me discover my burden, and help me forgive.

God Bless you, and your friend.

 

[OneSheep]

As an extension of this topic, I was reading this morning from an author who referred to his “Pharisaical side”, meaning the judgmental part of himself.

I observe that we have this rather “love/hate” relationship with our own capacity to judge. As part of our conscience, we value our capacity to judge others as a guide to our own behaviors, but we also see that judging others, especially the coupled dehumanization, can lead to some very awful behaviors.

I am not trying to steer the topic away from the OP, but if anyone wishes to address the question, “Why did our Creator give us the capacity to become automatically blind to the humanity of others when our judgment is triggered?”, feel free to contribute.

 

[OneSheep]

He just wants to be the one to choose what is fitting for him. He doesn’t want God interfering in his life.

Trouble is, he wants to be God.

This calls for another great investigation! Does a person who wants to be God knowingly and willingly reject God? (K&WRG)

Yes, of course the immediate answer is “we don’t know”, but with some patience, I can attest to the fact that all the possibilities can be exhausted; the scenarios are finite in number. I would love to hear of a new scenario, one I have not considered, where a person appears to K&WRG in wanting to be God.

Thanks, Lily!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

It’s Miffy from the children’s books, Kaninchen is German for ‘rabbit’.

Thank you. I started my college career at the University of Paris, then went to the University of Zuerich. In Swiss-German, a horrible dialect, a rabbit is a Heseli. Switzerland was gorgeous, but the Swiss-Germans were just too complicated for me. I spent a lot of time in Munich and Berlin, but didn’t get to western Germany much. Drove through Nancy and Metz, though, on my way to Strasbourg, France and to Saverne, a small town near Strasbourg.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hi Lily,

But we both know that this is just plain silliness. God’s “interference” gave him life in the first place. His mind is compromised by blindness, methinks.

Well, in my view, this is the way the mind works. When we see people from the outgroup doing evil, we stereotype and devalue. It is an automatic thing that happens in the mind, proven innate with studies on infants. The outgroup is seen as worthless and disposable, it is a blindness. It happens to all of us.

Such was the same for those who hung Christ on the cross. The could not see His humanity, much less His divinity. They did not know God as you know Him, and neither does your friend. To the extent that I devalue any human, I do not know God.

He is a slave.

Okay, he knows God as well as the rest of us, except he does not know that God is alive and well in his former boss, Muslims, and in Canarians. Those are pretty big exceptions, right? I will grant you that we all have our share of misconceptions, and it would be unwise to elevate ourselves to having a much clearer picture of God than the next fellow, but there is some reality involved. Blindness is real, and your friend is blinded by resentment. When he suffers enough, he may consider forgiving, but in the mean time he is a slave, and what is needed is healing. I will pray for him.

So, does he “knowingly and willingly” reject God? In my own assessment, like those who hung Jesus, there are some very relevant aspects of “knowing” missing. He does not know that God dwells within those he hates, he does not see their beauty. Like those who hung Jesus, he has not forgiven, therefore he does not know what he is doing.

Tone check: these are observations, not accusations. When we resent, we are all subject to such blindness, right? And when I do not realize that I am burdened with such blindness, I hope that those around me can help me discover my burden, and help me forgive.

God Bless you, and your friend.

Thank you. You know, I heard so much hatred, negativity, and venom from him, though, that I had to terminate the friendship. The real sticking point came when I began teaching theology, primarily Christology, although I teach some Moral Theology this semester, too. I still pray for him, though. I have my doubts that he will ever come to God, but who knows? We never really know a person’s relationship with Christ.

Thank you for the calm and reasoned explanation.

 

[Kaninchen]

Thank you. I started my college career at the University of Paris, then went to the University of Zuerich. In Swiss-German, a horrible dialect, a rabbit is a Heseli. Switzerland was gorgeous, but the Swiss-Germans were just too complicated for me. I spent a lot of time in Munich and Berlin, but didn’t get to western Germany much. Drove through Nancy and Metz, though, on my way to Strasbourg, France and to Saverne, a small town near Strasbourg.

Such a relief when one is through the Gotthard to Airolo, I always think.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

This calls for another great investigation! Does a person who wants to be God knowingly and willingly reject God? (K&WRG)

Yes, of course the immediate answer is “we don’t know”, but with some patience, I can attest to the fact that all the possibilities can be exhausted; the scenarios are finite in number. I would love to hear of a new scenario, one I have not considered, where a person appears to K&WRG in wanting to be God.

Thanks, Lily!

You’re welcome. I’m glad I gave you an idea, but it was purely accidental, of course. Not that you haven’t noticed, but I’m not at my best on message boards. I tend to be a very reflective thinker, so the quick answer, comeback, etc. just isn’t in me. I’ve been known to state the obvious more than once and embarrass myself. I’m a good teacher, but I have my lessons planned and know way more than my students, though I learn from those who really try.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Such a relief when one is through the Gotthard to Airolo, I always think.

I’m not a fan of the Gotthard, and in the summer, I sometimes take the Pass. That has its drawbacks, too, and after Andermatt, is impossible in the winter.

I’ve entered the Gotthard when it’s been dark, gloomy, and pouring rain, and emerged in Ticino in bright sunshine. Makes a huge difference to cross the mountains. I lived in Zuerich most of the time, but went skiing in Oberiberg, not far from Einsedeln.

I love Italy. Sometimes I went through Graubunden, but that takes so long. I think it’s a beautiful canton, though. I could never figure out the toilette a la Turquein Graubunden, though. Geez., I had to stop at a restaurant! LOL

 

[djames99]

First of all, some of the Pharisees did believe that Jesus was the Messiah as well as the Son of G-d. Second, those who rejected Him probably did so because His claim to divinity was contrary to what the Jews were taught about the uniqueness and oneness of G-d. IOW, the notion of a binatarian G-d consisting of a Father and Son (before the Trinitarian G-d was realized by the Church) was unknown to the nature of G-d as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures and therefore regarded as idolatrous and blasphemous. Moreover, the idea that G-d could be incarnated in the form of a human was considered impossible since it too ran contrary to the spiritual essence of G-d according to the Law. Any human, therefore, who claimed to be G-d must be a false prophet. The Jews had been warned about false prophecy by Moses in the book of Deuteronomy and that miracles were not to be used as a proof of divinity. For these Pharisees, Jesus was no doubt regarded as a test of their love and devotion to the G-d of their forefathers.

You made a good choice of Moses has an example of one of God’s messengers. He too had problems convincing others of his mission even with his God given miracles. The Jews whole heartedly support God’s methods in this case. We step forward to Christ’s mission. He also announced that he was the Messiah and made many miracles. He too had Apostles, after the crucifixion carried out the final stages of his mission. These people caused miracles and related the purpose of Christ’s mission and importance of good behavior for their salvation.

So I can’t see the problem other than a double standard. In one case it was the Egyptians, the next case the Jews who are called into question. In both cases we witness, what did God call it?,… a hardened heart.

 

[OneSheep]

You made a good choice of Moses has an example of one of God’s messengers. He too had problems convincing others of his mission even with his God given miracles. The Jews whole heartedly support God’s methods in this case. We step forward to Christ’s mission. He also announced that he was the Messiah and made many miracles. He too had Apostles, after the crucifixion carried out the final stages of his mission. These people caused miracles and related the purpose of Christ’s mission and importance of good behavior for their salvation.

So I can’t see the problem other than a double standard. In one case it was the Egyptians, the next case the Jews who are called into question. In both cases we witness, what did God call it?,… a hardened heart.

Good Morning, djames, and welcome!

There is an important distinction to be made that drives toward the crux of the matter, and I am wondering which version of sentiment is underlying i.e. our use of “hardened heart”.

Version 1: a “hardened heart” is a part of ourselves, of all humanity, that we automatically resent. We think of it negatively. We condemn it.

Version 2: a “hardened heart” is a naturally occurring phenomenon in all humanity, we can see such a condition as understandable in given circumstances, as part of the beauty of what it means to be human.

Version 3: ?

Which version are you using, djames? Feel free to create a third version.

Thanks!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Good Morning, djames, and welcome!

There is an important distinction to be made that drives toward the crux of the matter, and I am wondering which version of sentiment is underlying i.e. our use of “hardened heart”.

Version 1: a “hardened heart” is a part of ourselves, of all humanity, that we automatically resent. We think of it negatively. We condemn it.

Version 2: a “hardened heart” is a naturally occurring phenomenon in all humanity, we can see such a condition as understandable in given circumstances, as part of the beauty of what it means to be human.

Version 3: ?

Which version are you using, djames? Feel free to create a third version…
Thanks!

A hardened heart, to some extent, is necessary, I think. or we would be unbearably sad all the time. Compassion and empathy are wonderful virtues, but they must be tempered with some distance or we couldn’t act.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

As an extension of this topic, I was reading this morning from an author who referred to his “Pharisaical side”, meaning the judgmental part of himself.

I observe that we have this rather “love/hate” relationship with our own capacity to judge. As part of our conscience, we value our capacity to judge others as a guide to our own behaviors, but we also see that judging others, especially the coupled dehumanization, can lead to some very awful behaviors…

Very few know how to correct error with love. Oftentimes the correction can be viewed as judgment and that is all down to delivery and tone.

I mentioned on another thread, it is a skill very good communicators possess, the ability to correct others without getting a backhand or alienating .

 

[OneSheep]

A hardened heart, to some extent, is necessary, I think. or we would be unbearably sad all the time. Compassion and empathy are wonderful virtues, but they must be tempered with some distance or we couldn’t act.

Wow, Lily, could you develop that a little? For example, the pharisees had what is described as “hardened hearts”, which in my view meant that they were not open-minded about the law serving people, God being “Abba”, inclusion of the out-groups, encouragement of love of enemies, and many other issues. They had closed their hearts to such inclusion and compassion because of the structure of their consciences, i.e. eating with tax collectors was unconcionable, and security was found in the law, taking precedent over security found in Love itself.

In my eyes, what is functional about the pharisaical approach (as it is in most societies) is that fear of consequence keeps behaviors in check. (Jesus, of course, did not throw out the law, but calls us to act from love, forgiveness, and compassion rather than fear.)

I am interested in what you have to say about tempering compassion, we may be thinking along the same lines in terms of survival, but the “sad” part is confusing me a little. So, can you clarify?

Thanks, I like your approach!

 

[OneSheep]

Very few know how to correct error with love. Oftentimes the correction can be viewed as judgment and that is all down to delivery and tone.

I mentioned on another thread, it is a skill very good communicators possess, the ability to correct others without getting a backhand or alienating .

In my experience, the delivery and tone changes when we take the time to understand and forgive, which is what Jesus asks of us. The way I look at it, my judging is a triggered reaction, I cannot stop it, but I can become aware of my judging and then take the steps to understand and forgive.

So, to me the “skill” part begins with the discipline and mindset to realize when I am resenting or condemning.

Thanks!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Wow, Lily, could you develop that a little? For example, the pharisees had what is described as “hardened hearts”, which in my view meant that they were not open-minded about the law serving people, God being “Abba”, inclusion of the out-groups, encouragement of love of enemies, and many other issues. They had closed their hearts to such inclusion and compassion because of the structure of their consciences, i.e. eating with tax collectors was unconcionable, and security was found in the law, taking precedent over security found in Love itself.

In my eyes, what is functional about the pharisaical approach (as it is in most societies) is that fear of consequence keeps behaviors in check. (Jesus, of course, did not throw out the law, but calls us to act from love, forgiveness, and compassion rather than fear.)

I am interested in what you have to say about tempering compassion, we may be thinking along the same lines in terms of survival, but the “sad” part is confusing me a little. So, can you clarify?

Thanks, I like your approach!

Hardened heart was a poor choice of words on my part. Too much empathy can cause us to be unable to act. I’m a big animal lover. If I concentrated on the pain of abused and abandoned animals too much, I might sit home and cry about their situation rather than take action to right it. The same with kids with cancer and other debilitating diseases. And the dying. I’m a hospice volunteer, and I need to care, but put enough distance between them and me to keep my composure and comfort them.

 

[OneSheep]

Hardened heart was a poor choice of words on my part. Too much empathy can cause us to be unable to act. I’m a big animal lover. If I concentrated on the pain of abused and abandoned animals too much, I might sit home and cry about their situation rather than take action to right it. The same with kids with cancer and other debilitating diseases. And the dying. I’m a hospice volunteer, and I need to care, but put enough distance between them and me to keep my composure and comfort them.

Hi Lily,

I think what you are describing is the reason why humans have a capacity for desensitization. Very often we hear the problems with people being desensitized by violence in the media, but we don’t hear much about the benefits of desensitization for the human individual/species.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[OneSheep]

How about anyone else out there, is anyone who thinks of the Pharisees as being “hard-hearted” with more of a negative feeling toward the Pharisees?

If so, how did this “hard-heartedness” occur? Did they knowingly and willingly reject God?

Feel free to post, all replies are welcome!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hi Lily,

I think what you are describing is the reason why humans have a capacity for desensitization. Very often we hear the problems with people being desensitized by violence in the media, but we don’t hear much about the benefits of desensitization for the human individual/species.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

Yes, I think you’re right.