W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
we are quite capable of loving everything, the problem is we arent capable of providing everything, resources are limited. since they must be rationed, ultimately it comes down to who do you love more?
- Status
M
Marfran
Guest
This is the absolute truth. Before you listen to the messenger you need to take a closer look. BTW, Pete: Even tho we have our differences, I do like you, and see that you are searching for the truth. I suspect that you are much younger than I am. I had my period of soul searching and truth seeking myself. If you want to find the TRUTH you must be open to it to find it.
M
Marfran
Guest
Who do you love more? If your child and the neighbor child were drowning, and you could only save one, which one would you save? (People use this example all the time on animal people, but replace one of the children for a dog.) We do not have to choose one over the other–these examples show the smallness of a heart, not it’s immense capacity. Who does God love more? Does He love you more? Me more? The homeless man more? The senator more?
M
Marfran
Guest
warpspeedpetey: I think that some of the answers that you are looking for may be found at PCRM (Physicians Commitee for Responsible Medicine). What is even more convincing is PERSONAL experience. I encourage you to find a way to get this personal experience, if it is important for you to know the truth about animals. I work with animals and I have EXPERIENCED and witnessed the things which you seek to deny. You say that you can not discount MY experience, but you can not accept it for yourself because YOU have not experienced it. Ask the Lord to bring you the opportunity to find this TRUTH and have this experience in your own life.
Here is an excert from PCRM:
I don’t need any more evidence to know that the way we treat chimpanzees is unacceptable. Chimpanzees used in experiments suffer immensely.”
Deschanel’s letter was covered by Roll Call and U.S. News & World Report’s Washington Whispers column. Both periodicals are widely read by senators, representatives, and other Capitol Hill staffers who will play a critical role as **The Great Ape Protection Act **(GAPA) comes up for a vote.
“It can be easy to forget these animals who are locked away and out of sight,” writes Deschanel. “The Great Ape Protection Act is the best chance we have to ease their pain and suffering.”
That suffering was observed firsthand by PCRM primatologist Debra Durham, Ph.D., and PCRM director of research policy Hope Ferdowsian, M.D., M.P.H. They conducted an observational study involving 116 chimpanzees previously used in laboratories and now in a sanctuary. They found that the chimpanzees have a high prevalence of symptoms of depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other anxiety disorders, much like human victims of traumatic experiences.
“People may be shocked to learn that as a result of social and environmental deprivation in U.S. laboratory settings, some chimpanzees begin biting themselves, pulling their hair out, or self-mutilating in other ways,” says Dr. Durham. “It’s time for us to join the growing list of countries that ban invasive experiments on these amazing animals.”
The passage of GAPA would put chimpanzees in a unique position that could eventually result in greater protections for all animals. Phasing out the use of chimpanzees in research would channel funding to the development and implementation of modern, humane, and scientifically superior alternatives, which could help reduce the use of all animals in research.
Visit PCRM’s GAPA Web page to urge your U.S. representative to co-sponsor the Great Ape Protection Act, learn more about chimpanzees forced to live in laboratory research settings, and join the GAPA Facebook cause.
Here is an excert from PCRM:
I don’t need any more evidence to know that the way we treat chimpanzees is unacceptable. Chimpanzees used in experiments suffer immensely.”
Deschanel’s letter was covered by Roll Call and U.S. News & World Report’s Washington Whispers column. Both periodicals are widely read by senators, representatives, and other Capitol Hill staffers who will play a critical role as **The Great Ape Protection Act **(GAPA) comes up for a vote.
“It can be easy to forget these animals who are locked away and out of sight,” writes Deschanel. “The Great Ape Protection Act is the best chance we have to ease their pain and suffering.”
That suffering was observed firsthand by PCRM primatologist Debra Durham, Ph.D., and PCRM director of research policy Hope Ferdowsian, M.D., M.P.H. They conducted an observational study involving 116 chimpanzees previously used in laboratories and now in a sanctuary. They found that the chimpanzees have a high prevalence of symptoms of depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other anxiety disorders, much like human victims of traumatic experiences.
“People may be shocked to learn that as a result of social and environmental deprivation in U.S. laboratory settings, some chimpanzees begin biting themselves, pulling their hair out, or self-mutilating in other ways,” says Dr. Durham. “It’s time for us to join the growing list of countries that ban invasive experiments on these amazing animals.”
The passage of GAPA would put chimpanzees in a unique position that could eventually result in greater protections for all animals. Phasing out the use of chimpanzees in research would channel funding to the development and implementation of modern, humane, and scientifically superior alternatives, which could help reduce the use of all animals in research.
Visit PCRM’s GAPA Web page to urge your U.S. representative to co-sponsor the Great Ape Protection Act, learn more about chimpanzees forced to live in laboratory research settings, and join the GAPA Facebook cause.
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
im 36. i simply dont think ad hom attacks like that are fair. her choices in having or not having friends on the forum surely isnt important in the context of our discussion, you keep trying to make it about the people and not about the argument.
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
M
Marfran
Guest
OK–I’m old enough to be your mother. In reference to above-mentioned issue, we should lead by example, and our actions should reflect the words that we speak. I won’t go into depth here but–be careful–birds of a feather flock together–so look around and check out the feathers of your flock–you, my brother, wandered into the wrong one, and I’m not sure that you are even aware of it. Again, you and I may not agree on some things–but that’s why we have discussions here at CAF to share, broaden our knowledge and understandings, connect and help each other out…
M
Marfran
Guest
M
Marfran
Guest
**warpspeedpetey: **
Chimps Used in Experiments Develop Psychological Disorders
Dr. Ferdowsian was inspired to conduct this study by her work with human torture survivors. She found significant similarities in the ways that humans and nonhuman animals respond to trauma. **Like humans, other animals are capable of experiencing tremendous emotional and mental anguish in addition to physical pain. **Dr. Ferdowsian notes that many people have rationalized the use of animals in experimental research by citing their similarities to humans. “However,” she adds, “it is precisely the common potential for mental and physical suffering that makes it an ethical dilemma.”
“No one doubts that confining and experimenting on unconsenting humans is wrong,” Dr. Ferdowsian said. “But humans are not alone in their capacity to feel terror and helplessness and to carry the consequences of abuse with them for many years.”
tiny.cc/vQmu3
Chimps Used in Experiments Develop Psychological Disorders
Dr. Ferdowsian was inspired to conduct this study by her work with human torture survivors. She found significant similarities in the ways that humans and nonhuman animals respond to trauma. **Like humans, other animals are capable of experiencing tremendous emotional and mental anguish in addition to physical pain. **Dr. Ferdowsian notes that many people have rationalized the use of animals in experimental research by citing their similarities to humans. “However,” she adds, “it is precisely the common potential for mental and physical suffering that makes it an ethical dilemma.”
“No one doubts that confining and experimenting on unconsenting humans is wrong,” Dr. Ferdowsian said. “But humans are not alone in their capacity to feel terror and helplessness and to carry the consequences of abuse with them for many years.”
tiny.cc/vQmu3
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
ive bolded the problem areas, they are the exact anthropomorphic (read: technical definition) assumptions ive been referring too.
they draw their conclusions from observation, they assume that what they observe is the emotion depression, PTSD, or anxiety disorders. it could just as easily be the programmed responses to stress. it doesnt mean that they actually experience emotions.
observing a roomba can result in assertions of emotions also. i can say that it fears a staircase, or i can say it suffers when the error sensor blinks. etc. so observation isnt evidence of emotions.
ive been pointing out that there is no evidence for animal emotions, that isnt based on these exact same assumptions. personal revelation is fine, but i cant share it, if i did my rational nature would think there was something wrong, not to suggest that there is in your personal revelations, but i would interpret such a thing diffferently if it occurred to me. but thats intimately related to how i think about the world. if G-d is concerned about my position, maybe i will receive a revelation, until then though lets just stick to empirical evidence.
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
and i feel that you are wandering into the wrong one also, that position is the same held and used to defend preference utilitarianism of peter singer. i dont think you intend to, but i do think that your emotions are allowing you to place the needs of animals on par with the needs of people.
i dont dislike you because we disagree.
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
the part you bolded is an assumption. it can always be a programmed response instead.
J
Jean_Anthony
Guest
I have closed this thread because it has left behind the question of “why” do animals suffer to discuss “can” animals suffer, which is a different topic. If you wish to continue the latter topic, please start a new thread. Thank you all.
- Status