Why do animals suffer?

[distracted]

i hate it when the waiter asks me if i really want it that rare. of course! if its still mooing tape its mouth shut!

(im kidding mar fran, i dont eat them alive.)

:

yeah… we meat-eaters are compassionate… we kill the animal first…

and pigs… don’t they get shot in the head? That is ***much, much more humane that what happens to an unborn child in the womb ***if his mother doesn’t “want him”…

(someone else may want the child but that’s irrelevent i suppose.).

 

[distracted]

its that little robot vacuum, ive been using it to disprove the idea that animals have emotions simply because we assume that their behaviors are emotional, and not simple programmed reactions.

Ronnie was right! i really need that t-shirt, i bet your watching fox right now too.

Reagan?

what t shirt?

i don’t watch TV at all… don’t have one of those boxes… and hate most of what’s on anyhow…

but for Fox news… i may go to the trouble some dya…

 

[distracted]

thats pretty much how i feel too.

this is the stupid thread i was referring to:

**Ladies: things that make you go EEEEWWWW about MEN **

it’s at Back Fence…

i don’t know how to link threads… maybe you can tell me??

 

[warpspeedpetey]

See this is what I mean by your standard of evidence, and your slide into solipism. If you can’t experience it, it’s not real.

im not saying that at all, animal emotions may be real, they could just as easily be a programmed resonse, the assumption that they are not is irrational.

Wow, how did someone this skeptical become a Catholic?

precisely because i am this skeptical, i started out as an atheist. when i turned my skepticism on that, i realized they didnt have a leg to stand on. live by the sword, die by the sword.

in that line of thought why do you accept the existence of animal emotions with such a great lack of evidence? why dont you then accept the existence of G-d?

False dichotomy, and appeal to emotion; and this is not evidence for the lack of emotions in non-human animals.

your right, its not evidence for that because im explaining why i am so interested in the topic, not trying to give evidence for a lack of animal emotions.

 

[distracted]

its a good life, great food, got your buddies, and when the end comes, you dont have time to realize it. if a lion eats that cow though…, id say thats a lot worse than farming from the cows perspective. scrambling for food, no vets, and living in terror of a predator, that will eventiually eat you alive when your too weak to run or fight back.

excellent point.

and besides…

why have i found numerous threads over the suffering animals go through and yet few want to discuss how painful abortion is … how inhumane…

it is inhumane to the ones doing it also.
i went to atheists.com

ever been there? this abortionist (woman) was there talking about abortion… rationalizing it all the way…

i wanted to say something at that site but didn’t really u/stand their system… may try again…

 

[warpspeedpetey]

You still haven’t answer mine from pg 22. Many people have given you peer reviewed articles regarding non-human animal emotions. You choose to disqualify it all, because a) it’s just anthropomorphism and b) we can’t know everything about the topic, so it’s not real.

Now it’s down to the gut reactions of “I don’t care”, and “sweet!”.

i choose to disqualify it because there is another equally possible situation, programmed reactions. simply assuming its emotions instead, without evidence is irrational to me. i admit the possibility, but i want evidence that isnt assumptions.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I must have missed it, I thought that all you said was, “We exist therefore God exists,” and went on to make some onproven, ill-considered nonsense about contingent beings. Well, I don’t have time now to go back and read your objective, logical, independent, empirically-based argument for God’s existence

is this your refutation?

Yes, well, you can patronise me all you like if it makes you feel cleverer.

then stop the ad homs and make actual arguments to defend.

You can imply that my position is inconsistent, imply that you have provided evidence of God’s existence,

im not implying it im saying it straight out, to be agnostic on one topic you feel there is not evidence for, and to accept a belief that you admit there is no real evidence for is contradictory.

imply that I’ve made certain assumptions… but you and I both know (actually, I’m not sure that you do) that your position lacks logic, coherence and intelligence. Talking to you is like having a discussion with a table.

actually barney frank said a dinner table, but i see your keeping up with american politics, its great fun at least.

and you admit to these assumptions specifically, you assume emotions when it could just as easily be programmed responses.

your in the postion of having no evidence, i simply want some evidence that isnt assumptions. i would call that emminently reasonable and logical, you fhave an emotional belief to defend, you are now experiencing the skepticism that Christains recieve from athiests. you dont seem to be enjoying it.

I can’t be bothered to continue arguing with a self-proven ignoramus. Enjoy your self-righteous little life.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

yeah… we meat-eaters are compassionate… we kill the animal first…

and pigs… don’t they get shot in the head? That is ***much, much more humane that what happens to an unborn child in the womb ***if his mother doesn’t “want him”…

(someone else may want the child but that’s irrelevent i suppose.).

sshhhh…dont tell the truth, it makes people uncomfortable.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Reagan?

ny hero, Ronnie.

what t shirt?

snorgtees has a shirt that says Ronnie was right! they advertise on the drudgereport alot.

i don’t watch TV at all… don’t have one of those boxes… and hate most of what’s on anyhow…

but for Fox news… i may go to the trouble some dya…

Fox rules!

 

[warpspeedpetey]

this is the stupid thread i was referring to:

**Ladies: things that make you go EEEEWWWW about MEN **

it’s at Back Fence…

i don’t know how to link threads… maybe you can tell me??

post # 49? yeah it is petty, and that does play into the mysoginistic aspects we men like to focus on, but both genders have their flaws, im not offended by it. it just makes me think the participants are a little goofy to worry about that stuff. which seems to be your point.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

excellent point.

and besides…

why have i found numerous threads over the suffering animals go through and yet few want to discuss how painful abortion is … how inhumane…

it is inhumane to the ones doing it also.
i went to atheists.com

ever been there? this abortionist (woman) was there talking about abortion… rationalizing it all the way…

i wanted to say something at that site but didn’t really u/stand their system… may try again…

i can, im sure, feed you some arguments if you want, evil should always be confronted…

yeah people dont seem to realize the inherent contradiction in animal rights and abortion, but then they are really just arguing from desire, sex without consequences, and the emotional connections too animals. they want both to be true, at least here if they believe in animal rights they dont believe that abortion is ok.

 

[distracted]

post # 49? yeah it is petty, and that does play into the mysoginistic aspects we men like to focus on, but both genders have their flaws, im not offended by it. it just makes me think the participants are a little goofy to worry about that stuff. which seems to be your point.

a lot of that stuff just grossed me out…

i think:

if it is SO gross and bad, what your husbands, kids, etc… do… then why are you “re-living” it on CAF??

and making the rest of us (who are too [whatever…Stupid??] to stop at the first post ) read it??

anyway… a question just came to me…

you’re right that both sexes have their faults, but…

have you ever heard men talk about such things as these women do… on a public forum? i know they talk about them but … on a public forum??

I’m sure it happens but i have yet to see it… grown men, that is…

anyway, i’m thinking about some things i don’t like about men … so maybe i should quit while ahead or whatever… but the comlaints i have are*** valid***…

anyhow… i have to go…

I’ll bet Lujak is thrilled…

and some others… the vegans, etc…

 

[redhen]

yeah people dont seem to realize the inherent contradiction in animal rights and abortion,

There are several, long threads on abortion and homelessness. On this thread we are making arguments to explain animal suffering.

but then they are really just arguing from desire, sex without consequences, and the emotional connections too animals. they want both to be true

I call non sequitur.

, at least here if they believe in animal rights they dont believe that abortion is ok.

Where is here? Who is they?

p.s. Politics has nothing to do with animal suffering. I’m pretty conservative. Reagan was the man! I’m sad that I can’t get Fox news anymore since moving back to the socialist republic of Canada. Still, that doesn’t mean there are no other animals except that man that feels pain, suffers and expresses basic emotions like fear and anger.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

have you ever heard men talk about such things as these women do… on a public forum? i know they talk about them but … on a public forum??

I’m sure it happens but i have yet to see it… grown men, that is…

anyway, i’m thinking about some things i don’t like about men … so maybe i should quit while ahead or whatever… but the comlaints i have are*** valid***…

i dont know, i like women even if i dont always understand. as much as we all talk about eachother, its obviously mutual. we were made, one for the other.

 

[severus68]

its been attacked as an irrational concept since the greeks, its nothing new, its acceptance a matter of course though is new.

or when you assign human qualities to any non-human object.

education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/anthropomorphism

your right, it doesnt, but to claim that animals have emotions and not simply programmed responses does.

parrots can be trained to talk, does that then mean they have emotions, or have that they talk for treats?

we are only a few chromosomes away from a plants too same DNA structure, same 4 basic building blocks. do plants then feel emotions?

so what? i can assume other people have emotions because i do, even when im not talking.

who knows? but i do know what that little old homeless man that froze to death might have said. “Where is my food? where is my warm shelter? where is the care for me that is being spent on animals? why must i freeze to death while stray animals are warm and fed this night, while i am hungry, and i have only newspapers to cover my body?”

animals or people. which is it?

I am quite sure that you will not be convinced by what those like Marfran and I say about animals. However, with respect, I like them am obliged to respond.

Putting terms to things means nothing. Call it what you like but it is not irrational.

I know animals feel emotions because I have observed it first hand. Just because a single celled amoeba does not respond emotionally does not disprove this with regard to the higher animals.

My parrots show emotions. I have seen a flock of crows stay with a wounded crow, bringing it food.

Plants respond to stimuli.

Can’t we help both the homeless humans and the stray animals. By the way, there are strays because of irresponsible and cruel humans who will not neuter their pets and dump them when there is inconvenience.

In one of your later responses you referred to Jesus, a gentle woman and a dog. Could you please give me the Gospel reference, thank you.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

There are several, long threads on abortion and homelessness. On this thread we are making arguments to explain animal suffering.

we are discussing how e believe the topics are related.

I call non sequitur.

how so?

Where is here? Who is they?

Catholic forums, and Catholics

p.s. Politics has nothing to do with animal suffering.

of course we are talking about interconnected issues. nothing happens in a vacuum.

I’m pretty conservative. Reagan was the man! I’m sad that I can’t get Fox news anymore since moving back to the socialist republic of Canada.

Ronnie was the man, you could get a satellite, im surprised you cant get fox there, i havent been there since i was a little kid, but i remember american tv at the hotel. on broadcast at least.

Still, that doesn’t mean there are no other animals except that man that feels pain, suffers and expresses basic emotions like fear and anger.

of course not.

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Whatever the answer, our loving, Heavenly Father is in control. Sometimes things on Earth can be so hard, I know. It breaks my heart to hear of any person, and also any animal, suffering (people first… although I myself can be imperfect in that area). The greatest gift is Love, and so while we search for answers to tough questions such as these, loving and caring for God’s creation, out of love for God, is a good thing to do. And when we do find a person, or an animal that is suffering, it is an opportunity to love… to share the love of Christ. Sorry if my answer is imperfect… it’s how I understand, anyway …

 

[Marfran]

but, well, it seems to me that people who do NOT have animals treat other humans better than the ones who do. OK, so it is true that i don’t know every human in the world who has animals and all those who don’t. But that’s just been MY observations, for whatever its worth. It seems that animal lovers are all or mostly pro-abortion…

My observation is just the OPPOSITE. People who love animals are generally kind and caring to people, even more so than animals. All the animal people that I know are pro-life and anti-abortion. I’m sure that all the **Catholic animal people **here are also pro-life. And again, if YOU care so much about PEOPLE why don’t YOU have any humans friends on CAF, and why do you push people away who try to be-friend you??? Your observations aren’t worth much if you don’t walk the walk. There is a Catholic Group called Catholic Concern for Animals. tiny.cc/F3AGP Check it out. No pro-abortion people there.

 

[Marfran]

Whatever the answer, our loving, Heavenly Father is in control. Sometimes things on Earth can be so hard, I know. It breaks my heart to hear of any person, and also any animal, suffering (people first… although I myself can be imperfect in that area). The greatest gift is Love, and so while we search for answers to tough questions such as these, loving and caring for God’s creation, out of love for God, is a good thing to do. And when we do find a person, or an animal that is suffering, it is an opportunity to love… to share the love of Christ. Sorry if my answer is imperfect… it’s how I understand, anyway …

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

That was a fabulous post!!! We are here to love and open our hearts–open them wide. Our hearts are BIG ENOUGH to care about people, all people–not just our immediate family members, BIG ENOUGH to care about animals too–all animals–not just our pets, and our hearts are BIG ENOUGH to care for ALL of God’s creation, all of the planet… It’s sad when people restrict their love and caring and limit it–this is not Christ’s message–to be small in our LOVE, to restrict the capacity of our hearts.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

And again, if YOU care so much about PEOPLE why don’t YOU have any humans friends on CAF, and why do you push people away who try to be-friend you???

:tsktsk: