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Timbothefiveth
Guest
If animals didn’t have pain mechianisms, they would die.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i have, or have had , cats, dogs, birds, fish, calves, horses, ponies, toads, turtles, frogs etc, there is even a kitten that me and my room mate rescued sitting on the back of my chair annoying me as i type these words. i have had more than 1 of everything but a pony, and thats my baby girls.
i cuddle them, pet them, play with them, give them treats and talk to them occasionally.
ive also had to put them down, bury them, break the pony for riding, and eat the calves when they got to be big enough. i even named my first calf in 1983 J.R. Mooing ala dallas, a popular tv show at the time.
but im a west kansas farm boy at heart. animals are tools. anthropomorphising doesnt change that. they are the logical equivalent of a roomba, when you remove the emotions of the observer.
that was hilarious! singing meat!
that said the implication is that we cant consider ourselves any different, but thats not right, i know that i am more than a meatbot because i have free will, the ability to reason, and emotions among many others.
something that you can never prove an animal has. ive heard every argument imaginable on the subject, but to one degree or another they all rely anthropomorphization. assumptions and assertions.
until a cat turns to me and says something like “you know petey, im really having an existential problem with the relationship between me and my litter box” im not going to buy that what we anthropomorphize as “emotions” is any more than an observer dependent label.
now there are 2 kittens up here purring so loud that i cant hear the tv, stupid kittens.
…
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
no big deal, i do it before big parties so we can do a whole hog roast. i shoot him in his little head, cut his throat, hang him upside down to drain the blood, slit him from his hole in the back, to the hole in the front, drop his innards, knock off his nuts, bury him in a pit of red hot coals covered in aluminum foil, until the next days party, then i take his nuts into the house, clean 'em up, cut 'em up, fry 'em up to make mountain oysters for dinner. mmmmm…good.
so, yeah, i might have done that a few times.
only if i miss, and i dont miss.
how insulated are you? do you think the meat at the market just pops out of a coconut or something? without people like me, people like you would starve.
so yes, i am an unapologetic, west kansas farm boy. i kill things to eat, and i like it. thats what the sharp little teeth at the front of my mouth are for.
not only that, but our G-d commanded the Sacrifice of animals for centuries. he also said that they are for our use. so, unless youve never had a bite of meat, i dont wanna hear that city boy stuff.
it offends me that you would equate the most common of human activities and the heart of my culture with mental illness (insert a few unprintable words here about your lineage)
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Timbothefiveth
Guest
I’m a vegetarian, however, I think it’s important to recognise that animals are not as important as people. For instance, a few of the apostles were fishermen.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
heck, i got mad when i took these kittens we found abandoned, to the nice, modern well equipped shelters for animals, where the guy outside whose dog i patted as i went in, told me that he was homeless.
the city shelter for the homeless is a pile of… well its a pile. a homeless guy froze to death downtown here last year, while the nice, clean, well fed, medically attended and warm shelters for meatbots were humming along just a few miles away.
ive always been a little leery of things like PETA, but that was the day my sympathy died.
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liquidpele
Guest
Ah… your background explains it, thanks for the response. Your view on animals is very much like most of the rest of the world outside the united states. I myself don’t even like killing pests in my house… but I view all life as more similar than different so I likely personify them more than you do. The meat bots always think they are more than a meat bot, what else is new.i have, or have had , cats, dogs, birds, fish, calves, horses, ponies, toads, turtles, frogs etc, there is even a kitten that me and my room mate rescued sitting on the back of my chair annoying me as i type these words. i have had more than 1 of everything but a pony, and thats my baby girls.
i cuddle them, pet them, play with them, give them treats and talk to them occasionally.
ive also had to put them down, bury them, break the pony for riding, and eat the calves when they got to be big enough. i even named my first calf in 1983 J.R. Mooing ala dallas, a popular tv show at the time.
but im a west kansas farm boy at heart. animals are tools. anthropomorphising doesnt change that. they are the logical equivalent of a roomba, when you remove the emotions of the observer.
that was hilarious! singing meat!
that said the implication is that we cant consider ourselves any different, but thats not right, i know that i am more than a meatbot because i have free will, the ability to reason, and emotions among many others.
something that you can never prove an animal has. ive heard every argument imaginable on the subject, but to one degree or another they all rely anthropomorphization. assumptions and assertions.
until a cat turns to me and says something like “you know petey, im really having an existential problem with the relationship between me and my litter box” im not going to buy that what we anthropomorphize as “emotions” is any more than an observer dependent label.
now there are 2 kittens up here purring so loud that i cant hear the tv, stupid kittens.
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severus68
Guest
Actually I am vegetarian. I know how the Muslims slaughter - not very pleasant.
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severus68
Guest
I have a few comments on your posts. So you are happily a carnivore, I am an animal loving, tree hugging vegetarian and am unapologetic about that.no big deal, i do it before big parties so we can do a whole hog roast. i shoot him in his little head, cut his throat, hang him upside down to drain the blood, slit him from his hole in the back, to the hole in the front, drop his innards, knock off his nuts, bury him in a pit of red hot coals covered in aluminum foil, until the next days party, then i take his nuts into the house, clean 'em up, cut 'em up, fry 'em up to make mountain oysters for dinner. mmmmm…good.
so, yeah, i might have done that a few times.
only if i miss, and i dont miss.
how insulated are you? do you think the meat at the market just pops out of a coconut or something? without people like me, people like you would starve.
so yes, i am an unapologetic, west kansas farm boy. i kill things to eat, and i like it. thats what the sharp little teeth at the front of my mouth are for.
not only that, but our G-d commanded the Sacrifice of animals for centuries. he also said that they are for our use. so, unless youve never had a bite of meat, i dont wanna hear that city boy stuff.
it offends me that you would equate the most common of human activities and the heart of my culture with mental illness (insert a few unprintable words here about your lineage)
The sacrifice of animals was in the Old Testament. Christ did not ask for animal sacrifice but for us to sacrifice ourselves. There is some reference in the OlddTestament to God wanting peole to sacrifice themselves as in giving of themselves rather than sacrifice animals to Him.
Anthromorphism? I love animals but I don’t pretend they are humans.
Love is limited. You can animals and love humans and care for both. They are all part of God’s creation.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i merely point out that animals are for our use by the example of the Sacrifice. i dont think you are evil or wrong for your position, unless you place the welfare of animals above that of people. however the implication of detales comment is that people who eat meat, are immoral, repressed, mentally ill, which is why he got that reaction. its ok to be a vegetarian, just as its ok to be a carnivore they are choices having nothing to do with the qualities of the individuals involved.
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severus68
Guest
Thank you for that civilised response. My apologies for some mistakes I made in my post. I meant “Love is not limited.You can love both animals and humans” Really tired.
I do not agree with all you say but do not think you are mentally ill for eating meat. Most of my family still do although I am sure none would actually kill an animal.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
my family that lives in town wouldnt either though they eat meat. but i grew up on a farm, its just a bare fact of life to me. but we have found a common ground, neither of us is evil. good enogh for me.
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Detales
Guest
Warpspeedpeety, thanks for your reply. That explains a lot. And unlike Severus68 misinterpretation, I do not think that “*people who eat meat, are immoral, repressed, mentally ill, *” I am at the same level as the butcher, having hunted and fished for food myself, but clearly not to the extent you have. And I am grateful to people who do the job for me, as otherwise I would have to stand at my front door and shoot deer and wild turkey, and maybe squirrel and rabbits. As it is, I pay someone to do that for me, as I do enjoy a good bbq or sautee. And my beef jerky is well liked by family and friends.
What I was addressing is that I personally believe, from sounds I have heard from suffering animals, including pets I have rescued from dire straights, is that they have some degree of feeling. Now I do distinguish between suffering and pain. Pain is a sensation, suffering is thoughts about it. I don’t know if animals have thoughts about it, but I tend to think not as much as we do, and not entirely the same way. Yet I think that there is such an element there, and that is why we dispatch animal quickly if they are irretrievably hurt.
I also agree with you, Warpspeed, that PETA is mostly emotionalism, though I like some of their ads for their cleverness. I wear leather, and like the look of fur, and there are reasonable ways of obtaining those. What I am against is the alleged vivisection of animals for questionable purposes, of their use for testing toxic things that could be as well tested other ways. In other words, I do not figure animals for “meatbots.” If they are, then we are too, save that we know it and claim an element independent of the body. I am not convinced about the utter independence of that element either. I guess we shall see, eh? " Vamos a ver."
What I was addressing is that I personally believe, from sounds I have heard from suffering animals, including pets I have rescued from dire straights, is that they have some degree of feeling. Now I do distinguish between suffering and pain. Pain is a sensation, suffering is thoughts about it. I don’t know if animals have thoughts about it, but I tend to think not as much as we do, and not entirely the same way. Yet I think that there is such an element there, and that is why we dispatch animal quickly if they are irretrievably hurt.
I also agree with you, Warpspeed, that PETA is mostly emotionalism, though I like some of their ads for their cleverness. I wear leather, and like the look of fur, and there are reasonable ways of obtaining those. What I am against is the alleged vivisection of animals for questionable purposes, of their use for testing toxic things that could be as well tested other ways. In other words, I do not figure animals for “meatbots.” If they are, then we are too, save that we know it and claim an element independent of the body. I am not convinced about the utter independence of that element either. I guess we shall see, eh? " Vamos a ver."
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i understand your position, then, i may not agree as to any element of suffering to the pain response in animals, but its ok if you do, i am upset with this phrase
"How insulated, emotionally, mentally and socially are you??? "
it implies that there is something wrong with me, because i do not agree with you, i apologize for the manner in which i responded, but i was quite offended at the time and i hope you can understand why. that said it is done between us, let us mention eachothers tresspasses no more. all is forgiven as i hope i am.
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Detales
Guest
I never, in my mind, accused you of anything needing forgiveness. Poor phrasing on my part. I was emotionally asking a question from my sense of pain triggered by hearing hurt animals a number of times. Maybe that is an anthropomorphism of the kind I often accuse others of. I just thought that if you had no feeling response to such sounds you might be emotionally insulated from a response similar to mine. I see now that you simply have a practical perspective that I didn’t consider, and wouldn’t expect from a “city person,” which I mostly am, though I wouldn’t hesitate to whack an animal if there was a good reason. My mistake, and my jumping to conclusions. But that is why we talk. If any forgiveness was needed, it was on my part for narrow vision in this case. Peace and thanks.
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severus68
Guest
Dear Detales,
I did not respond to you but to Warpedspeedpetey. Those words are words he said you applied to him. I have no comment on that and thus there is no comment of mine.s please do not say I misinterpreted.
You may find it difficult to avoid leather but what reasonable way is there to get it and fur? Peta is not only what you say it is. It is much more and I would not dismiss it so easily if you really do not believe in cruelty.
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Detales
Guest
My appologies, then, for misreading your statement.
I am against the torture of animals or treating them inhumanely, if not for their sake, then for a kind of ethical integrity. but I alos am sure that leather and furs can be got in completely sustainable and humane ways. Some Amerind cultures, and I’m sure others, were good at this.
I am against the torture of animals or treating them inhumanely, if not for their sake, then for a kind of ethical integrity. but I alos am sure that leather and furs can be got in completely sustainable and humane ways. Some Amerind cultures, and I’m sure others, were good at this.
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Bill_Cherry
Guest
**Because they are living, breathing sentient beings just like us. Only they are designed a little different.They don’t all have thumbs or the vocal capacity that humans have. But, they are subject to the same laws of nature as we are. They are still flesh and blood. **
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severus68
Guest
Thank you Detales.
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davidv
Guest
Animals are?
Sentient: Yes
Intelligent: No
Have a will: No
Subject to the laws of nature: Yes
Subject the Natural Law: No
The answers for the above points for humans are all yes. Animals and humans are hardly “just like us”.
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Detales
Guest
Hmmm… Interesting, David, then that chimps have less thatn 2% difference from us in DNA. I guess that that is God"s 2%? And what about Oliver, the “humanzee?”
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