Why do animals suffer?

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Bill_Cherry said:
**I agree with you wholeheartedly! I have gone on Vegan forums have gotten ripped apart for my pro life stance.

Also, it is this very reason why I try to remind people that we do not live in a democracy, or at least we aren’t supposed to. The pledge of allegience says," and the REPUBLIC for which it stands. Even Ben Franklin, when asked what had happened after the first congress said something like, “It’s a republic, if you can keep it!” (He was a vegetarian by the way**)
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its unfortunate, but its true, their disrespect for life belies the rationality of their position.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
t anthropomorphization (hey bill! 20 letters!)
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Impressive!👍 according to my spell checker the word doesn’t exist…you sure didn’t just make it up?😛
surely you dont think that a hungry child on an indian reservation really cares if fido is comfy do you?
**My dog is tough he can sleep in a cholla patch loaded with rattlesnakes!:hey_bud:

Of course I am inclined to believe that tat big word was originally to refer to Aesops fables and bugs bunny.**😃
 
warpspeedpetey said:
we are superior because we can show that we have free will, that we can act beyond our programming. thats the same reason we are superior to roombas, deep blue, hal 9000, or a meatbot. we are obviously not deterministically driven. (yes, i can defend free will, if you want to go there.)

as we have earlier discussed any behavior that can be copied by the appropriate programming, sensors, and processors cannot be a rational reason to anthropomorphize animals. by extension that anthropomorphization (hey bill! 20 letters!) cannot then be used to claim any equality for animals.

the resources they use, and other organizations use to provide for stray animals instead of our fellow man who suffers is immoral. i dont mean that you cant feed a stray dog, only that the humane shelters are much better funded then the human shelters. it is an immoral allocation of resources. surely you dont think that a hungry child on an indian reservation really cares if fido is comfy do you?
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Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing for equality. Just respect.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
these of course are the normal reasons given tol justify anthropomorphization, yet because we can duplicate them all with machines, then they cannot rationally be the basis for a validation of anthropomorphization.
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When you can observe emotions such as fear, sadness, surprise or anger in a machine, let me know, ok?

Thanks
 
warpspeedpetey said:
yes, given the choice between a stray animal and human needs i am well within the bounds of the teachings of the church. our priority should always be our fellow man.
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Your claim was “until every humans needs are satisfied animals are of no importance.”

This is what the RCC teaches? Really? Can anyone else back up warpseedpetey on this?
 
Bill_Cherry said:
Impressive!👍 according to my spell checker the word doesn’t exist…you sure didn’t just make it up?😛
surely you dont think that a hungry child on an indian reservation really cares if fido is comfy do you?
**My dog is tough he can sleep in a cholla patch loaded with rattlesnakes!:hey_bud:

Of course I am inclined to believe that tat big word was originally to refer to Aesops fables and bugs bunny.**😃
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nope, check it out merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropomorphization

i cant believe i spelled it right!
 
liquidpele said:
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing for equality. Just respect.
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well, im a farm boy, so the concept is a little odd to me but i guess i can equate it to a prize limousine bull. you can either respect him because of his excellent build and bloodlines, or you can respect him because of his horns, but beleive me… either way your gonna respect him:)
 
Bill_Cherry said:
Mister Obama, someone is voicing dissent:onpatrol:

😃
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mr. obama, i do not know this man, i have never heard of him. i totally in line with the liberal trinity of you, pelosi and reid…please dont send the SEIU members to my house to quell his unamerican dissent from the new american socialism, i want to give you all my money and freedom because the secular liberal elite on the coasts really do know what is best for me.:rotfl:
 
warpspeedpetey said:
well, im a farm boy, so the concept is a little odd to me but i guess i can equate it to a prize limousine bull. you can either respect him because of his excellent build and bloodlines, or you can respect him because of his horns, but beleive me… either way your gonna respect him:)
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**I can respect that!:cool:

But, tell me sir, you have never had the feeling that maybe, just maybe, that that bull might actually have some sense that it knows who you are? I just can not subscribe to Descartes line of reasoning.( i know, robots can be programmed…blahblah**)
But, c’mon. When one of your animals was in pain or suffering, :(didn’t you feel the least amount of pity? Even just a little? Maybe when you were small, before you got hardened to it?🤷
 
redhen said:
When you can observe emotions such as fear, sadness, surprise or anger in a machine, let me know, ok?

Thanks
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how do you know that you are observing actual emotions from animals? if we program a computer to do so, does that mean then that the machine is experiencing real emotion? you dont, thats just more anthropomorphization. you dont know animals have those emotions you assume it because it seems that way. similar systems dont imply an identical state.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
how do you know that you are observing actual emotions from animals? if we program a computer to do so, does that mean then that the machine is experiencing real emotion? you dont, thats just more anthropomorphization. you dont know animals have those emotions you assume it because it seems that way. similar systems dont imply an identical state.
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:imsorry: **C’mon, Pete…

Just a little?:bighanky:
**
 
redhen said:
Your claim was “until every humans needs are satisfied animals are of no importance.”

This is what the RCC teaches? Really? Can anyone else back up warpseedpetey on this?
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bill already qouted the CCC on this.
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
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as far as i am concerned a starving child in africa laying on his deathbed is intrinsically worth more than the combined utility value of every animal on the planet. i dont think there is a rational difference between evolutionary programmed animals and people programmed machines. therefore i see no equality of value between animals and people.
 
Bill_Cherry said:
**I can respect that!:cool:

But, tell me sir, you have never had the feeling that maybe, just maybe, that that bull might actually have some sense that it knows who you are? I just can not subscribe to Descartes line of reasoning.( i know, robots can be programmed…blahblah**)
But, c’mon. When one of your animals was in pain or suffering, :(didn’t you feel the least amount of pity? Even just a little? Maybe when you were small, before you got hardened to it?🤷
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of course, i was a child. i named my first calf “j.r. mooing” after the “dallas” tv show character. i bottle fed him, filled the water trough for him and bucked hay bales bigger than me for him, problem was, when my foster mother fed him he ran just as quickly to her. so i then understood that he was reacting to a stimuli, not to an emotional attachment to me. even my cat, opie, he couldnt care less who pets him or who feeds him, if i have a guest over, he is just as likely to jump in their lap as mine. no matter how much i might like to believe that he has some attachement to me personally, he doesnt. though i probably wont eat opie, (though i threaten to when he bugs me) i did eat j.r. mooing, and didnt feel a twinge of regret, i understood by then that he wasnt really any different than my atari, (name removed by moderator)ut equals output, its that simple. i save my real pity for those who need it the most, my fellow man.

one doesnt become “hardened” to it, farm life just reveals the truth about it, at least thats my opinion.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
of course, i was a child.
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** AHA!👍**
i named my first calf “j.r. mooing” after the “dallas” tv show character. i bottle fed him, filled the water trough for him and bucked hay bales bigger than me for him, problem was, when my foster mother fed him he ran just as quickly to her. so i then understood that he was reacting to a stimuli, not to an emotional attachment to me. even my cat, opie, he couldnt care less who pets him or who feeds him, if i have a guest over, he is just as likely to jump in their lap as mine. no matter how much i might like to believe that he has some attachement to me personally, he doesnt. though i probably wont eat opie, (though i threaten to when he bugs me) i did eat j.r. mooing, and didnt feel a twinge of regret, i understood by then that he wasnt really any different than my atari, (name removed by moderator)ut equals output, its that simple. i save my real pity for those who need it the most, my fellow man.
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one doesnt become “hardened” to it, farm life just reveals the truth about it, at least thats my opinion.
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😊
 
warpspeedpetey said:
sorry brother, not even a little. its ok that you do, but my experiences havent led me to that conclusion. it simply isnt rational.
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Well, I am sure you would make a fine Marine.

Not even just a teensy weensy bit?😊

It’s ok bro. As CrackerMomma says," There is enough room in the church for all of us…😃
 
warpspeedpetey said:
you dont know animals have those emotions you assume it because it seems that way. similar systems dont imply an identical state.
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No, I don’t assume it. I have studied the psychology of emotions in college, and I have experiential knowledge of the same. The study of emotions in man and animals has been going on several centuries.
darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F1142&viewtype=text&pageseq=1

If you have never seen expressions of fear or anger in a non-human animal, than I can only suggest that you have a low EI quotient en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence
or you’re not being completely honest.
 
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