Why do Baptists say Catholics are not Christians?

[andrewstx]

Not all are like that. Perhaps in the most traditionalist congregations, but certainly not a majority. At least not anymore. And especially no more than certain Catholics who interpret extra ecclesiam nulla salus to mean that all non-Catholics are essentially condemned. Yes, such Catholics do exist. And yes, I’ve had experience with them. The shoe does fit the Catholic foot as well.

What makes a lot of Evangelicals skeptical about the Catholic Church is that some perceive that many Catholics are simply “going through the motions” to receive the sacraments, but without really having their heart in the faith. Additionally, many believe that the intercession of the saints can occasionally take precedence over Christ, and that Catholic “works” reduces the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.

Individuals from all sides misinterpret or can be arrogant with regards to other Christian groups. I think that, above all, should be what is recognized.

You might very well be right. I haven’t set foot in a church of Christ since my Father’s funeral a few years ago. It’s been even longer since I’ve been in a Southern Baptist church.
I have lost all interest and just go to Mass now.

But OTOH the web site “ExchurchofChrist.com” indicates that things have not changed much.

I am not very interested in pietism and it’s insistence on “heart felt” religion since I was raised in it and saw first hand the hypocracy inherent in it.

 

[Cat]

Who founded the Baptist church, and when? If not Jesus circa AD 33, on Pentecost, then why would I trust the Baptist claim about the Catholic Church?

The reason you would trust the Baptist church is that you trust in God.

When you trust in God, you trust that when you ask Him, He will lead you into righteousness and truth, because He SAID He would! Matt. 7:7 says, “Ask and it shall be given to you: seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.”

Read the rest of the passage (through verse 12), and it is very clear that God will answer the prayers of those who are seeking Him and not give them a stone instead of bread.

So if the Catholic Church is really the true Church of Jesus Christ, why would God not lead Baptists out of their false churches into the True Church? THAT’S what a Baptist would ask Catholics. Why would God allow Baptists who truly WANT to serve Him and obey Him, to wallow in a false church? That’s a monstrous concept of God!

According to that passage in Matthew 7, an earthly father doesn’t give his child a stone when He asks for bread. And how many of you, if your little child was walking into a dangerous street, would run and grab your child and pull him/her to safety? **That’s what Baptists expect God to do–stop them from going down the wrong path, as long as they put their trust in Him and follow Him daily and try to avoid sin and the appearance of sin.
**

So when you pray to God and ask Him to reveal the truth to you, and you are led into a Baptist church and led to listen to Baptist pastors and read Baptist books, you TRUST that God is leading you correctly because you trust God and believe that He is GOOD, not capricious.

This isn’t some mystery story or some “Find Waldo” book, where God is hiding His Church and mischievously telling those who want to follow Him to “Find My Church!” There are eternal consequences here! According to many Catholics, those who aren’t Catholics are eternally doomed!

So again, WHY would God allow Baptists (and other Protestants) to NOT find His Church, and why would He allow them to continue to be happy servants in other non-Catholic churches? Why wouldn’t He reach down and pluck them out, especially when they constantly ask Him to lead them into all truth?!

Non-Catholic Christians trust that IF you are mis-understanding God, and He wants you to be somewhere else (Catholic Church?), that He will LEAD you there, and make it very very clear to you that He is leading you there.

When Catholics say that Protestants are in the “wrong” church, a church that isn’t really even a church, Protestants shake their heads and say, “You are insulting God, because if He wanted me to be Catholic, He would tell me so clearly.”

I think lay Catholics have a difficult time with this because they are used to simply obeying their CHURCH, and not going to God privately and asking for wisdom and guidance. Instead, they trust that the Catholic Church will tell them the right thing to do.

But Protestants do not go to a “church” to receive instruction and training in life. They go to the Bible, and they go to men and women who teach the Bible.

And that brings me to the second reason why anyone would trust the Baptist Church–because they trust the men and women who are their pastors, teachers, and fellow laypeople in the Baptist churches.

This is something else that is often difficult for lay Catholics to understand–the deep and very real fellowship that happens in Protestant churches. Many Catholics poo-poo this, and state that we are at Mass for the VERTICAL, not the Horizontal, and that Mass isn’t about “fellowship,” but “Sacrifice.”

Well, they are right. But CHURCH is about fellowship, and that’s what a lot of Catholics don’t understand because they don’t “get” the concept of fellowship in church. They do their fellowshipping outside of the church.

Baptists are friendsly and more often than not, they are genuine. A lot of Catholics sneer when I say that I grew up with church families who did not drink alcohol and yet we all managed to have a fun time every time we got together. I’ve talked to Catholics who say, “These people only PRETEND to not drink alcohol, but they secretly do.”

No, they don’t.

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years. During that time, I met up with some bad people in the churches that I was part of. In fact, the reason that my husband and I eventually fled our Evangelical church and came to the Catholic Church is that we were kicked out of our church by some truly monstrous pastors.

But for the most part, the people I knew were awesome. Salt of the earth. They would do anything for you. It was fun to be with them, and I loved them very much.

And that’s why Baptists (and other Protestants) trust their church–because they trust and love the people in that church. Week after week, year after year, they get to know hundreds and thousands of friendly, sincere people who genuinely love God and desire above all things to serve Him.

t’s hard for any Protestant to believe the Catholic claim that they are all being deceived and that their “church” is not a Church of Jesus Christ at all, but a man-made invention.

And the reason it’s hard to believe this is that Protestants believe that God would intervene and STOP them from following a false path. In other words, like I said at the beginning of this post, they have simple and absolute trust in God, that He will lead them into paths of righteousness.

How does a Catholic answer that? Does a Catholic really even understand any of what I wrote above? I don’t a lot of Catholics get it at all. I think to a lot of Catholics, modern Protestants are still “Martin Luthers” who are stubbornly denying the truth of the Catholic Church and will go straight to hell for their heresy.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Well said, Cat.

I don’t trust God to necessarily STOP me from going down a wrong path. But, I do trust Him to make it clear enough if I should change what I’m doing, if I’m sincerely, with an open heart, asking for His guidance.

Some years ago I came across a prayer on David McDonald’s Catholic Bridges website about seeking unity in Christ, asking the Holy Spirit to bring about unity “in Your time, in Your way. I give You absolute permission to move.”

I prayed that prayer, and I still pray it. But, in truth, though I’ve increased in respect for Catholicism–and I was never anti-Catholic to begin with—over the past 4 years of inquiry I’ve become less convinced, not more convinced, that I should convert to Catholicism. If I was convicted that I should convert, I’d begin the process immediately.

 

[TexanKnight]

Not all Baptists feel this way. My grandparents were married 68 years. She was a devout Baptist who never missed Church and he was a devout Catholic who never missed Mass.

I am a devout Catholic. My wife is devout Baptist. She attends Mass with me more often than she attends Baptist Church.

 

[stewstew03]

…

How does a Catholic answer that? Does a Catholic really even understand any of what I wrote above? I don’t a lot of Catholics get it at all. I think to a lot of Catholics, modern Protestants are still “Martin Luthers” who are stubbornly denying the truth of the Catholic Church and will go straight to hell for their heresy.

I think we tend to speak in terms of broad, sweeping generalizations. Of course not all Baptists are X, any more than all Catholics are Y. We can only look to what our respective churches teach and preach.

Getting back to the original topic, what do you think of the links that I posted earlier, Cat?

Here they are again:

Catholics and Salvation

Sharing the Good News with Catholics

?

 

[sideshowBob]

My friend; Fundalmentalist christians hold that they alone are saved and right.

This requires ignoring both History and the Bible, and is illogical to boot. Certainly Christ did not wait for Calvin and then hundreds of years later; the Leaders of the Fundalmentalist Movement to introduce His [singular] truths. That is the position they must hold.

Further they claim a right [usurped] and unblblical to-boot; that soem how the CC has been disqualified as Christ One God; One Faith in One Chuurch which are all biblically provable. For this to be a reality[its not:blush:] Christ; our Perfect God would have had to change His mind or lied:

Mt. 16:18-19 “And I Your PERFECT God] say to thee: YOU”! That thou art Peter; and upon this rock [You Peter] I will build my church**,[singular**] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee [You-Peter ALONE!] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. "

THIS COMMAND AND MANDATE IS FROM GOD DIRECTLY TO AND ONLY TOO THE APOSTLES AND THROUGH THEM BY ABSOLUTE NECESSITY TO ‘TEACH THE ENTIRE WORLD WHAT I GOD TAUGHT TO YOU’ ; TO TODAYS CC. NO OTHER FAITH CAN MAKE THIS CLAIN IN TRUTH

**So friend; we do not have to listen them; they need to hear what our Perfect God has said and DONE. AMEN!:**thumbsup:

ONLY THE CC HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT [JOHN 20;21-22] and CHRIST HIMSELF AS WARRANTY OF ONLY THE TRUTHS OF GOD…no other faith can make and support this claim.

John 17:15-20 “I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth.[God cannot deny His own prayer request!] Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me”

Fact; truth God and the Bible ALL support the Catholic Position. Sadly for some; that’s insufficient evidence.

Know and Defend our Faith; don’t be quick to comprimise. Truth is SINGULAR.

yes there is a difference–

and some of this is true and some of the following is false–

finding the singular truth – can be difficult–

Jesus got mad at the teachers in his day – for adding to the word of GOD YAWAH

So, one way-- is to see if the particular CHURCH has added to the basic TORAH–

this was part of the attempt-- of the protestant reformation-- but too bad they didn’t get it right–

now all there is --is-- conflict between---- the bible belivers “vs” and the catholics

An unwary Catholic who steps into the Protestant Bible study usually does so with no intention of leaving the Catholic Church. They just want to study the Bible.

The Catholic usually has a hard time finding a good and welcoming Bible study in Catholic circles—.

First, while the Bible study may call itself “non-denominational,” Catholics and Orthodox are not usually included under this umbrella. While they may be invited, you’ll rarely find them in leadership.

Protestants think of themselves as people of the Book, not hampered by human tradition. They think of Catholics as, at best, followers of traditions for whom the Bible is secondary. That is a huge misconception: Protestants are also people of tradition. No one reads the Bible objectively. People who claim to “just read the Bible” really read it through the eyes of a tradition they’ve already accepted, whether that be Fundamentalist, Calvinist, Pentecostal, Baptist or one of many others. Everyone depends upon tradition, but not everyone recognizes it.

“Bible Christians,” based on their tradition, study the Bible with these premises:

There is no binding authority but the Bible alone.
There is no official binding interpretation or interpreter.
The Bible is perspicuous (i.e., easy to understand) and can be interpreted and understood by anyone.
An individual can and should read the Bible and interpret it for himself.

Catholics, based on their Tradition, study the Bible with different premises:
The Bible is not always easy to understand (2 Pet. 3:15-16) and needs to be understood within its historical and contextual framework and interpreted within the community to which it belongs.
Individuals can and should read the Bible and interpret it for themselves—but within the framework of the Church’s authoritative teaching and not based on their own private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20-21).

These basic differences place the Catholic and Protestant worlds apart even though they are opening the pages of the same book and accepting it as an authoritative revelation from God. The Catholic position is biblical and has been espoused from the first days of the Church. The Protestant position is unbiblical and is of recent origin. The Catholic is in full continuity with historical Christianity; Protestants are in discontinuity.

Catholics attending a non-denominational Bible study need to be aware of these differences and be ready not only to filter out false conclusions but also to guard themselves against the false underlying assumptions (e.g., that everything has to be found and proven explicitly in the Bible).

Catholics who are unaware often begin to adopt a Protestant mentality without knowing they are doing so, gradually learning to suspect the Catholic Church and trying to prove everything from the Bible.
[/quote]

 

[joe370]

The reason you would trust the Baptist church is that you trust in God.

When you trust in God, you trust that when you ask Him, He will lead you into righteousness and truth, because He SAID He would! Matt. 7:7 says, “Ask and it shall be given to you: seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.”

Read the rest of the passage (through verse 12), and it is very clear that God will answer the prayers of those who are seeking Him and not give them a stone instead of bread.

So if the Catholic Church is really the true Church of Jesus Christ, why would God not lead Baptists out of their false churches into the True Church? THAT’S what a Baptist would ask Catholics. Why would God allow Baptists who truly WANT to serve Him and obey Him, to wallow in a false church? That’s a monstrous concept of God!

According to that passage in Matthew 7, an earthly father doesn’t give his child a stone when He asks for bread. And how many of you, if your little child was walking into a dangerous street, would run and grab your child and pull him/her to safety? **That’s what Baptists expect God to do–stop them from going down the wrong path, as long as they put their trust in Him and follow Him daily and try to avoid sin and the appearance of sin.
**

So when you pray to God and ask Him to reveal the truth to you, and you are led into a Baptist church and led to listen to Baptist pastors and read Baptist books, you TRUST that God is leading you correctly because you trust God and believe that He is GOOD, not capricious.

This isn’t some mystery story or some “Find Waldo” book, where God is hiding His Church and mischievously telling those who want to follow Him to “Find My Church!” There are eternal consequences here! According to many Catholics, those who aren’t Catholics are eternally doomed!

So again, WHY would God allow Baptists (and other Protestants) to NOT find His Church, and why would He allow them to continue to be happy servants in other non-Catholic churches? Why wouldn’t He reach down and pluck them out, especially when they constantly ask Him to lead them into all truth?!

Non-Catholic Christians trust that IF you are mis-understanding God, and He wants you to be somewhere else (Catholic Church?), that He will LEAD you there, and make it very very clear to you that He is leading you there.

When Catholics say that Protestants are in the “wrong” church, a church that isn’t really even a church, Protestants shake their heads and say, “You are insulting God, because if He wanted me to be Catholic, He would tell me so clearly.”

I think lay Catholics have a difficult time with this because they are used to simply obeying their CHURCH, and not going to God privately and asking for wisdom and guidance. Instead, they trust that the Catholic Church will tell them the right thing to do.

But Protestants do not go to a “church” to receive instruction and training in life. They go to the Bible, and they go to men and women who teach the Bible.

And that brings me to the second reason why anyone would trust the Baptist Church–because they trust the men and women who are their pastors, teachers, and fellow laypeople in the Baptist churches.

This is something else that is often difficult for lay Catholics to understand–the deep and very real fellowship that happens in Protestant churches. Many Catholics poo-poo this, and state that we are at Mass for the VERTICAL, not the Horizontal, and that Mass isn’t about “fellowship,” but “Sacrifice.”

Well, they are right. But CHURCH is about fellowship, and that’s what a lot of Catholics don’t understand because they don’t “get” the concept of fellowship in church. They do their fellowshipping outside of the church.

Baptists are friendsly and more often than not, they are genuine. A lot of Catholics sneer when I say that I grew up with church families who did not drink alcohol and yet we all managed to have a fun time every time we got together. I’ve talked to Catholics who say, “These people only PRETEND to not drink alcohol, but they secretly do.”

No, they don’t.

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years. During that time, I met up with some bad people in the churches that I was part of. In fact, the reason that my husband and I eventually fled our Evangelical church and came to the Catholic Church is that we were kicked out of our church by some truly monstrous pastors.

But for the most part, the people I knew were awesome. Salt of the earth. They would do anything for you. It was fun to be with them, and I loved them very much.

And that’s why Baptists (and other Protestants) trust their church–because they trust and love the people in that church. Week after week, year after year, they get to know hundreds and thousands of friendly, sincere people who genuinely love God and desire above all things to serve Him.

t’s hard for any Protestant to believe the Catholic claim that they are all being deceived and that their “church” is not a Church of Jesus Christ at all, but a man-made invention.

And the reason it’s hard to believe this is that Protestants believe that God would intervene and STOP them from following a false path. In other words, like I said at the beginning of this post, they have simple and absolute trust in God, that He will lead them into paths of righteousness.

How does a Catholic answer that? Does a Catholic really even understand any of what I wrote above? I don’t a lot of Catholics get it at all. I think to a lot of Catholics, modern Protestants are still “Martin Luthers” who are stubbornly denying the truth of the Catholic Church and will go straight to hell for their heresy.

I think you made a good argument for Christians belonging to the Baptist Church i.e. if God really wanted them to belong to the Catholic Church, God would move them to do so.

 

[PJM]

=sideshowBob;10702569]yes there is a difference–

An unwary Catholic who steps into the Protestant Bible study usually does so with no intention of leaving the Catholic Church. They just want to study the Bible.

The Catholic usually has a hard time finding a good and welcoming Bible study in Catholic circles

My work * caused me to relocate often. Its unusual to find a parish that does not have ione or more Bible study classes.

Protestants think of themselves as people of the Book, not hampered by human tradition. They think of Catholics as, at best, followers of traditions for whom the Bible is secondary. That is a huge misconception: Protestants are also people of tradition. No one reads the Bible objectively. People who claim to “just read the Bible” really read it through the eyes of a tradition they’ve already accepted, whether that be Fundamentalist, Calvinist, Pentecostal, Baptist or one of many others. Everyone depends upon tradition, but not everyone recognizes it.

“Bible Christians,” based on their tradition, study the Bible with these premises:

There is no binding authority but the Bible alone.
There is no official binding interpretation or interpreter.
The Bible is perspicuous (i.e., easy to understand) and can be interpreted and understood by anyone.
An individual can and should read the Bible and interpret it for himself

The problem with this is that Few [if any] Protestant “Bible churches” use the ENTIRE Bible. rather they pick and choose; cull and ignore. Then much of what they do use is not rightly understood.

The One Infallible rule for right understanding is either unknown or ignored.

NEVER EVER; CAN, MAY OR DOES one passage, verse, or teaching make void; invalidate or override another. Such a possibility would render the bible as worthless.

Catholics, based on their Tradition, study the Bible with different premises:
The Bible is not always easy to understand (2 Pet. 3:15-16) and needs to be understood within its historical and contextual framework and interpreted within the community to which it belongs.
Individuals can and should read the Bible and interpret it for themselves—but within the framework of the Church’s authoritative teaching and not based on their own private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20-21)

Mt. 16:18-19; John 20;21-22; Mk. 16:14-15 and Mt. 28:18-19 make exceeding clear that Christ gives the Poawer; the Authority and the Protection [Jn.17:15-20] to His Apostles ALONE; and by absolute necessity to todays CC [who alone hold the KEYS to heavens access]; when Christ; shorty before assending back to the Father told the Apostles [only] **to Teach everything I TAUGHT TO YOU…to the entire world". **Amen

These basic differences place the Catholic and Protestant worlds apart even though they are opening the pages of the same book and accepting it as an authoritative revelation from God. The Catholic position is biblical and has been espoused from the first days of the Church. The Protestant position is unbiblical and is of recent origin. The Catholic is in full continuity with historical Christianity; Protestants are in discontinuity.

Catholics attending a non-denominational Bible study need to be aware of these differences and be ready not only to filter out false conclusions but also to guard themselves against the false underlying assumptions (e.g., that everything has to be found and proven explicitly in the Bible).

Catholics who are unaware often begin to adopt a Protestant mentality without knowing they are doing so, gradually learning to suspect the Catholic Church and trying to prove everything from the Bible.

On this final quote of yours, we fully agree:thumbsup:

Thank you!
Pat/PJM*

 

[butbob]

My friend; Fundalmentalist christians hold that they alone are saved and right.

This requires ignoring both History and the Bible, and is illogical to boot.
Certainly Christ did not wait for Calvin and then hundreds of years later;
Ya sure you know the will of GOD the Leaders of the Fundalmentalist Movement to introduce His [singular] truths. No PJM-- it was recognizing false truth
That is the position they must hold.
Further they claim a right [usurped] and unblblical to-boot;

that soem how the CC has been disqualified as Christ One God;
One Faith in One Chuurch which are all biblically provabl

For this to be a reality[its not:blush:] Christ; our Perfect God would have had to change His mind or lied:
And I will give to thee [You-Peter ALONE!] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. "

Then just before Assending back to heaven Christ Proclaimed the following:
Mt. 28:16-20 “And the eleven disciples [Apostles] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [YOU Apostles] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”

THIS COMMAND AND MANDATE IS FROM GOD DIRECTLY TO AND ONLY TOO THE APOSTLES AND THROUGH THEM BY ABSOLUTE NECESSITY TO ‘TEACH THE ENTIRE WORLD WHAT I GOD TAUGHT TO YOU’ ; TO TODAYS CC. NO OTHER FAITH CAN MAKE THIS CLAIN IN TRUTH

**So friend; we do not have to listen them; they need to hear what our Perfect God has said and DONE. AMEN!:**thumbsup:

ONLY THE CC HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT [JOHN 20;21-22] and CHRIST HIMSELF AS WARRANTY OF ONLY THE TRUTHS OF GOD…no other faith can make and support this claim.

John 17:15-20 “I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth.[God cannot deny His own prayer request!] Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me”
[/COLOR]
Fact; truth God and the Bible ALL support the Catholic Position. Sadly for some; that’s insufficient evidence.

Know and Defend our Faith; don’t be quick to comprimise.

Truth is SINGULAR.
yes the truth of Jesus and the Father Yawah is indeed singular but-- in the catholic church not so

Is Catholicism Pagan?

If few Fundamentalists know the history of their religion—which distressingly few do—even fewer have an appreciation of the history of the Catholic Church. They become easy prey for purveyors of fanciful “histories” that claim to account for the origin and advance of Catholicism.

Anti-Catholics often suggest that Catholicism did not exist prior to the Edict of Milan, which was issued in 313 AD and made Christianity legal in the Roman Empire. With this, pagan influences began to contaminate the previously untainted Christian Church. In no time, various inventions adopted from paganism began to replace the gospel that had been once for all delivered to the saints. At least, that is the theory.

Are Catholics Born Again?

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again.

Jesus said so: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,”

he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism.

(Ya sure ) that was as real as the decation ceremony in the baptist church

Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

For an Evangelical, becoming “born again” often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be “born again.”

“If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!” says the preacher.

So the gentleman makes “a decision for Christ” and at the altar call goes forward to be led in “the sinner’s prayer” by the minister.

Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—“born again.” But is the minister right?

The Whore of Babylon

In another tract, Hunting the Whore of Babylon,

we looked at nine arguments given by fundamentalist Dave Hunt for his claim that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon from Revelation 17–18.

His arguments are typical of those used by fundamentalist anti-Catholics and are easily proven wrong. (See that tract for details).

Do the Episcopalian and Orthodox churches have the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

The Orthodox churches have valid holy orders

meaning their priest-- don’t have the Holy Ghost-- can you tell?

while the Episcopal church does not;

therefore, the Eucharist confected in the Orthodox churches is valid, but this is not the case in Episcopalian churches.

 

[JackQ]

Baptist churches are all independent. They may get together in their various conferences to make statements, doctrinal and otherwise. But, as I understand it, these things are not binding. One cannot speak of Baptist doctrine in the same way one speaks of Catholic doctrine.

 

[valerie10]

hello-- i found this interesting-- Can non-Catholics receive grace without the sacraments?

If grace is received through the sacraments, is it possible for a non-Catholic to receive grace?

youtu.be/URtUu8Y-QIM

i can see why the catholic church "thinks " it has the upper-hand–

because grace is supposted to be un merited favor-- where as you can go to a catholic mass or a batpist service-- and each can have the same effective ness of grace–

or the same non-effictive-ness of grace–

but if you go to a Pentecostal holy Spirit filled-church- you can actually experience the Grace of the Holy spirit-- and it’s un-merited-favor–

yes there is a singular truth-- and each religion denomination makes the claim

it’s a odd deception that PJM says only the CC has the holy Spirit–

The problem with this is that Few [if any] Protestant “Bible churches” use the ENTIRE Bible. rather they pick and choose; cull and ignore. Then much of what they do use is not rightly understood.

The One Infallible rule for right understanding is either unknown or ignored.

NEVER EVER; CAN, MAY OR DOES one passage, verse, or teaching make void; invalidate or override another. Such a possibility would render the bible as worthless.

Quote:
Catholics, based on their Tradition, study the Bible with different premises:

The Bible is not always easy to understand (2 Pet. 3:15-16) and needs to be understood within its historical and contextual framework and interpreted within the community to which it belongs.

Individuals can and should read the Bible and interpret it for themselves—

but within the framework of the Church’s authoritative teaching and not based on their own private interpretation ( what ever you mean by private interpretation a reader can’t say)

(this was intended as a warning for O.T. interpretation)

(2 Pet 1:20-21)

Mt. 16:18-19; John 20;21-22; Mk. 16:14-15 and Mt. 28:18-19

make exceeding clear that Christ gives the Poawer; the Authority and the Protection [Jn.17:15-20]

to His Apostles ALONE; ( not truePJM)

and by absolute necessity to todays CC

[who alone hold the KEYS to heavens access]; (not true-PJM)

when Christ; shorty before assending back to the Father told the Apostles [only]

(and this is what the CC teaches? – not true-PJM)

to Teach everything I TAUGHT TO YOU…to the entire world".

 

[wbh80]

So if the Catholic Church is really the true Church of Jesus Christ, why would God not lead Baptists out of their false churches into the True Church? THAT’S what a Baptist would ask Catholics. Why would God allow Baptists who truly WANT to serve Him and obey Him, to wallow in a false church? That’s a monstrous concept of God!

To which I would respond by pointing out that out of the about 2 billion Christians world-wide, approximately 1.2 billion of them are Catholic. It would appear that God has led more Christians to Catholicism than all of the other non-Catholic denominations in the world combined.

So again, WHY would God allow Baptists (and other Protestants) to NOT find His Church, and why would He allow them to continue to be happy servants in other non-Catholic churches? Why wouldn’t He reach down and pluck them out, especially when they constantly ask Him to lead them into all truth?!

Non-Catholic Christians trust that IF you are mis-understanding God, and He wants you to be somewhere else (Catholic Church?), that He will LEAD you there, and make it very very clear to you that He is leading you there.

This could very easily lead into a circular argument. Every Sunday, at the very least, all Catholics pray to God to “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” If Protestants truly believe what you have said, why then do they think God does not “pluck” one from Catholicism when Catholics are always praying to be lead down the righteous path? My response, either way you look at it, is that one may pray for guidance, but you cannot ignore the free will of man. It is clearly evident, to me, that from the very beginning man has had and exercises free will.

I think lay Catholics have a difficult time with this because they are used to simply obeying their CHURCH, and not going to God privately and asking for wisdom and guidance. Instead, they trust that the Catholic Church will tell them the right thing to do.

But Protestants do not go to a “church” to receive instruction and training in life. They go to the Bible, and they go to men and women who teach the Bible.

This is not a personal attack, but I believe the opinion you’ve expressed above is not based on truth, but rather your personal perception. I’ve been nothing but encouraged to pray, and pray often, by priests in all parishes I’ve been part of or visited. The are many Catholics that have dedicated themselves, personally or through a ministry, to prayer. Most every question I have ever asked of a teacher, priest, or deacon has been answered with the Bible, or the Catechism (which often cites the bible for the basis its contents).

This is something else that is often difficult for lay Catholics to understand–the deep and very real fellowship that happens in Protestant churches. Many Catholics poo-poo this, and state that we are at Mass for the VERTICAL, not the Horizontal, and that Mass isn’t about “fellowship,” but “Sacrifice.”

Well, they are right. But CHURCH is about fellowship, and that’s what a lot of Catholics don’t understand because they don’t “get” the concept of fellowship in church. They do their fellowshipping outside of the church.

If that were true, we would not have the many ministries that we have in every parish and diocese. Do you mean, specifically, fellowship during mass?

How does a Catholic answer that? Does a Catholic really even understand any of what I wrote above? I don’t a lot of Catholics get it at all. I think to a lot of Catholics, modern Protestants are still “Martin Luthers” who are stubbornly denying the truth of the Catholic Church and will go straight to hell for their heresy.

Again, this is not a personal attack, but it seems as though you somewhat of a negative view of many Catholics. Does the influence of the beliefs and perceptions you’ve held for nearly five decades outside of Catholicism continue to persist? I can plainly see you are active of these forums, and have been a Catholic for nearly a decade now. Perhaps I have simply mistaken the tone of your post. It’s easy enough to do online!

 

[Cat]

To which I would respond by pointing out that out of the about 2 billion Christians world-wide, approximately 1.2 billion of them are Catholic. It would appear that God has led more Christians to Catholicism than all of the other non-Catholic denominations in the world combined.

To which Evangelical Protestants would respond, “Many of these were born into Catholicism, and have never actually made a conscious, mature decision to embrace Catholicism. And many of these, when presented with the Evangelical Protestant version of the Gospel of Jesus, leave Catholicism and embrace Evangelical Protestantism.”

And they have the stats to prove it.

This could very easily lead into a circular argument. Every Sunday, at the very least, all Catholics pray to God to “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” If Protestants truly believe what you have said, why then do they think God does not “pluck” one from Catholicism when Catholics are always praying to be lead down the righteous path? My response, either way you look at it, is that one may pray for guidance, but you cannot ignore the free will of man. It is clearly evident, to me, that from the very beginning man has had and exercises free will.

To which Evangelical Protestants would respond, “Yes, God DOES pluck many thousands of Catholics from Catholicism and bring them into Evangelical Protestant churches.”

And again, they have the stats to prove it. It’s amazing how many Catholics leave the Church to attend Evangelical Protestant churches, not only in the United States, but in South America.

Speaking from personal experience in Evangelical Protestant churches, I would say that between 10-25% of the people in our churches were former Catholics. And I would say that 25-50% of the people had Catholic parents who had left Catholicism and raised their children in Evangelical Protestant churches.

This is not a personal attack, but I believe the opinion you’ve expressed above is not based on truth, but rather your personal perception. I’ve been nothing but encouraged to pray, and pray often, by priests in all parishes I’ve been part of or visited. The are many Catholics that have dedicated themselves, personally or through a ministry, to prayer. Most every question I have ever asked of a teacher, priest, or deacon has been answered with the Bible, or the Catechism (which often cites the bible for the basis its contents).

But the fact is, the Catholic Church does not teach “Bible alone,” but teaches a “three-legged stool” organization: The Bible, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. A Catholic who relies only on prayer and the Bible for correct teaching is not practicing correct Catholicism.

I agree, our priests in our diocese encourage people to pray and read the Bible, and there are plenty of Bible studies. But these are ALWAYS done with the Bible AND the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not just the Bible. And the teachers of these studies are qualified individuals who have been through some pretty extensive ministry training, not just a parish member who is willing to “facilitate” the study.

If that were true, we would not have the many ministries that we have in every parish and diocese. Do you mean, specifically, fellowship during mass?

I mean, knowing people.

I attended Evangelical Protestant churches that had around 500 people in attendance. I knew most of these people. Honest. I knew their names, first and last, and I knew their children, and I often enjoyed social times with them in restaurants and in our homes, and during church and Sunday school, I sat with them and knew who I was sitting next to. I did a lot of work with these people (church work).

And we loved each other.

Here’s an example of how fellowship in the Evangelical Protestant world works. Years ago, when my husband and I had just started attending our church down in Raleigh, a man in our church was killed on his job (manual laborer, forklift accident). It came across the news and I recognized the name. (I’m not sure I would recognize the name of ANY of the parishioners at my Catholic parish, other than the twenty or so people that I know.)

I immediately gathered up my baby (she was about three months old) and drove over to this lady’s house. (Yes, I knew where she lived. I only know where a few people in my parish live!).

When I got there, at least a hundred other ladies were there, comforting the grieving wife and her son. During the next year or so, we kept visiting her, bringing food, and crying with her.

Maybe it happens where you are, and if so, you are greatly blessed. Maybe it happens when Catholics have grown up together. But my husband and I are still very much alone in our parish. And we are friendly, outgoing people who are involved with several ministries in the parish. We know a lot of people by sight, but not in heart.

I know about twenty people in my parish of 7000. It’s physically very difficult to get to know people in the Catholic Church, because we do not speak with each other before or after Mass in the nave, and once Mass is finished, there is a stampede to get out the door. We chat with people in the lobby, and because I play piano, a lot of people come up to me and thank me for playing. But people do the same thing at a CONCERT. In spite of all the attempts to make sure that the Mass is not “theater,” I think a lot of Catholics still see it as “theater,” because they behave as though it’s theater.

And of course, there’s the drinking thing. My husband and I have a very difficult time with liquor use by Christians. We try to feel comfortable, but we don’t, and I don’t think we ever will. That’s leaves out about 90% of the parishioners. We don’t have much in common with them other than our Catholicism.

continued next post

 

[Cat]

continued from last post

Again, this is not a personal attack, but it seems as though you somewhat of a negative view of many Catholics. Does the influence of the beliefs and perceptions you’ve held for nearly five decades outside of Catholicism continue to persist? I can plainly see you are active of these forums, and have been a Catholic for nearly a decade now. Perhaps I have simply mistaken the tone of your post. It’s easy enough to do online!

I have a positive view of the Catholics that I do know. I have a very positive view of the Catholic Church, and I believe that it is the True Church of Jesus Christ, the Church that He established and intends for all Christians to be part of.

I never hear Catholics that I know speak of Protestants as “doomed.” Just the opposite.

But here on these forums, there are plenty of Catholics who make it very clear that Protestantism is a heresy and Protestants’ chances of heaven are slim-none. They often post links with Catholic writings by vetted Catholics which support the idea that Protestants are going to hell. It’s hard to read stuff like that. I believe all the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I’m not really sure about whether these links represent the “complete” teaching of the Catholic Church when it comes to the eternal destiny of non-Catholics.

 

[Cat]

wbh80, I’m not messing with you here, and I’m not trying to take the thread OT and I’m certainly not expressing disillusionment with Catholicism. What I’m trying to do is give Catholics (cradle) a sense of the “Baptist mind.”

That’s exactly what the OP is asking. The OP wants to know “why” Baptists say what they say. In other words, the OP is asking, “How do Baptists think?”

I think this is an excellent question, and one that is vital to Catholics who wish to be part of the New Evangelization. We can’t evangelize if we don’t know and understand our “target group.”

I have infinite respect and admiration for Catholic Apologists like Tim Staples. He was a big part of my conversion to Catholicism.

But apologetics is limited to “facts and figures.” The apologist can make points and counterpoints and defend the faith by presenting the facts and figures about the faith and lining them up against the facts and figures of other faiths.

However, apologetics does not examine the “culture” of other faiths. Many times, it is not the facts and figures that keep people involved in a certain church or fellowship–it is the “culture.”

A lot of people have no clue about the teachings of their Church, and Catholics are just as guilty of this as many Protestants!

They are members of their church or fellowship because they like the people and the culture. They feel comfortable there. They “feel” home.

And apologetics will NOT be effective in reaching these people. Sorry, Tim. You know what I’m talking about.

You know that there are people in the Assemblies of God who wouldn’t leave their church even if they were convinced that the Catholic Church is Jesus’ Church. They love their church and their fellow church members too much. They don’t want to attend a liturgical church that has “obligations” and “sacraments,” and that elevates Gregorian chant and usually forbids lively Gospel music. They don’t want to attend a church where people roll out a keg at the parish picnic.

Evangelical Protestantism is a very “safe” place.

Now don’t get the wrong idea. I’m not talking about physical safety. There are thousands of Evangelical Protestants, many in the last one hundred years, who have been horrifically martyred for their faith. I personally knew and know people who lost husbands, parents, and/or children over on foreign mission fields. Their loved ones were tortured and killed because they were Christians.

So when I say, “safe,” I’m not talking about “safety from martyrdom.”

I’m talking about innocent, pure, fun, loving, friendly, honest–very very honest–daily life.

One thing that can make me lose my temper around Catholics is when they say, with a smug expression on their faces, that “Evangelicals only PRETEND not to drink alcohol, but they have their secret stash at home, and drink in private.”

I’m sure that some do. But most don’t. Most Evangelical Protestants are very honest and live open lives. They aren’t hiding anything. It’s hard to hide any glaring sin in the Evangelical Protestant churches, because someone will figure it out (the Holy Spirit will lead them to discover the truth), and they will “out” that person, and there will be a public reckoning. I’m not talking about the “heinous” sins here. I’m talking about things like “use of alcohol” or some other addiction. A lot of Evangelical Protestants have formed “accountability groups” to help the many many men who use porn.

Now I wonder if, in the last decade (my husband and I converted to Catholicism in 2004), the Evangelical culture has become less “safe.” I think it’s probably happening, and it’s probably a good thing. Christian writer John Fischer has written several books criticizing the “fortress mentality” that characterizes Evangelical Protestantism, and I suspect that this fortress is crumbling as Evangelicals realize the hypocrisy of claiming to want to fulfill the Great Commission, but in reality never leaving the safe “walls” of their own churches and culture.

At any rate, I would love to see more honest, open dialogue in the Catholic Church between cradle Catholics and various types of Protestant converts, including Evangelical Protestants. I think it would help in the New Evangelization. I think a lot of converts like myself have a hard time balancing honesty with criticism. When we try to be honest about the mind of the Evangelical Protestant, and specifically, the Evangelical Protestant convert to Catholicism, people say, “You’re still thinking like a Protestant. You need to give it up and become totally Catholic.” Well, that’s easier said than done. You don’t give up a culture easily, especially when that culture was good.

I hope this post helps Catholics and Protestants to think more deeply about The Great Commission and the New Evangelization in the Catholic Church. We can’t approach this with a shallow mindset.

 

[MarshallJackson]

I attended many Protestant churches before I decided that Catholicism was for me, and unfortunately I heard in more than one of them (not only Baptist churches) the notion that Catholics are “not Christians”, and I even heard things said such as “Catholics don’t go to heaven”

I think it is sad that these things are said in these churches, as they are truly missing out on one of the most important aspects of being a Christian. I would like to think that it is pure ignorance that sparks these beliefs, because if it is not ignorance, I would have to say that they are simply looking at others with haughty eyes.

My dad grew up in a Southern Baptist church, and I was a little nervous as to what his reaction would be when I told him that I was entering into RCIA. I talked to him about it, and was a little shaky in terms of having a lot of questions for me about what things meant and what they stood for. After a lot of explaining, he was satisfied with the fact that I wanted to become a Catholic, and he is happy that I have a closer relationship with God than I ever have. This is what leads me to think that the sole reason for the preaching and beliefs against the Catholic church is simply ignorance.

 

[PJM]

=butbob;10706756]yes the truth of Jesus and the Father Yawah is indeed singular but-- in the catholic church not so

Is Catholicism Pagan?

If few Fundamentalists know the history of their religion—which distressingly few do—even fewer have an appreciation of the history of the Catholic Church. They become easy prey for purveyors of fanciful “histories” that claim to account for the origin and advance of Catholicism.

Anti-Catholics often suggest that Catholicism did not exist prior to the Edict of Milan, which was issued in 313 AD and made Christianity legal in the Roman Empire. With this, pagan influences began to contaminate the previously untainted Christian Church. In no time, various inventions adopted from paganism began to replace the gospel that had been once for all delivered to the saints. At least, that is the theory.

Are Catholics Born Again?

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again.

Jesus said so: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,”

he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism.

(Ya sure ) that was as real as the decation ceremony in the baptist church

Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

For an Evangelical, becoming “born again” often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be “born again.”

“If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!” says the preacher.

So the gentleman makes “a decision for Christ” and at the altar call goes forward to be led in “the sinner’s prayer” by the minister.

Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—“born again.” But is the minister right?

The Whore of Babylon

In another tract, Hunting the Whore of Babylon,

we looked at nine arguments given by fundamentalist Dave Hunt for his claim that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon from Revelation 17–18.

His arguments are typical of those used by fundamentalist anti-Catholics and are easily proven wrong. (See that tract for details).

Do the Episcopalian and Orthodox churches have the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

The Orthodox churches have valid holy orders

meaning their priest-- don’t have the Holy Ghost-- can you tell?

while the Episcopal church does not;

therefore, the Eucharist confected in the Orthodox churches is valid, but this is not the case in Episcopalian churches.

OK:shrug:

So MY Friend; what is your point?

I’d like to engage you in conversation, but I’m missing what you choose to discuss:blush: {no dount my fault} so help me out here.

God Bless you,
pat /PJM

 

[joe370]

Cat;10707742]To which Evangelical Protestants would respond, “Many of these were born into Catholicism, and have never actually made a conscious, mature decision to embrace Catholicism. And many of these, when presented with the Evangelical Protestant version of the Gospel of Jesus, leave Catholicism and embrace Evangelical Protestantism.”

And they have the stats to prove it.

I guess my question to them would be: Is this sort of reasoning justified? Why not consider the opinion of those catholics that did in fact make a conscious, mature decision to embrace catholicism. What about those folks, (like you and me) that were presented with the evangelical protestant version of the Gospel of Jesus, and chose catholicism and rejected evangelical protestantism?

To which Evangelical Protestants would respond, “Yes, God DOES pluck many thousands of Catholics from Catholicism and bring them into Evangelical Protestant churches.”

Just curious: Do you believe that Jesus draws people away from His church? Perhaps their reasoning is flawed. They certainly do.

And again, they have the stats to prove it. It’s amazing how many Catholics leave the Church to attend Evangelical Protestant churches, not only in the United States, but in South America.

Belong to Jesus’ one church or be influenced by stats…Hmm… I am not being sarcastic…

Speaking from personal experience in Evangelical Protestant churches, I would say that between 10-25% of the people in our churches were former Catholics. And I would say that 25-50% of the people had Catholic parents who had left Catholicism and raised their children in Evangelical Protestant churches.

Why do you think this is? Perhaps poor catechesis, poor judgement on the part of the person leaving or a combination of both? What would you say to them to encourage them to stay?

But the fact is, the Catholic Church does not teach “Bible alone,” but teaches a “three-legged stool” organization: The Bible, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. A Catholic who relies only on prayer and the Bible for correct teaching is not practicing correct Catholicism.

I attended Evangelical Protestant churches that had around 500 people in attendance. I knew most of these people. Honest. I knew their names, first and last, and I knew their children, and I often enjoyed social times with them in restaurants and in our homes, and during church and Sunday school, I sat with them and knew who I was sitting next to. I did a lot of work with these people (church work).

Cool. Why did you become catholic?

 

[joe370]

I attended many Protestant churches before I decided that Catholicism was for me, and unfortunately I heard in more than one of them (not only Baptist churches) the notion that Catholics are “not Christians”, and I even heard things said such as “Catholics don’t go to heaven”

I think it is sad that these things are said in these churches, as they are truly missing out on one of the most important aspects of being a Christian. I would like to think that it is pure ignorance that sparks these beliefs, because if it is not ignorance, I would have to say that they are simply looking at others with haughty eyes.

I can relate. :yup:

 

[Bklynguy]

There is a psychological inferiority-complex vector to protestant anti-catholicism. However, I don’t think that it every rises to the level of deliberate consciousness that you seem to be portraying here. The feeling of inferiority, for most I think, remains below the conscious level, manifesting as fear and sometimes hatred.

And of course I feel like it needs to be said that this is not true for all protestants. Only for some.

Interesting…I thought I was the only one who thought this way…that it is an inferiority complex.