Why do believers in science-only believe they are entitled to one supernatural mulligan which jump started the universe?

[ManOnFire]

No I do not believe that. I think there are other unknowable things.

While I do not believe in science-only* in the sense that you are saying it, I disagree that there “should be a reason.” Can you elaborate on why you believe there “should” (i.e. must?) be a reason?

I do not believe in the supernatural - so I guess I believe in naturalism - but I would not call my beliefs science-only, bc I don’t think science can provide all the answers. I believe everything is either 1) explainable by science or 2) unknowable by science, and therefore unknowable. The “reason” the universe was started is one of many *unknowable things IMO.
Please explain why you think this. What makes you think there’s a reason for everything?

Of course they would, bc science does not ask “why” [did this happen], science asks “how” [did this happen]. They might be frustrated that it cannot be known, but they would still accept it.
To tell you the truth, I do not even think about it much. I just live my life; I don’t have much desire to know “why” and I’m not sure what I would do differently if I did. What bearing does the reason why the universe was started have to do with if I should get up on time for work today, what I should eat for breakfast, or what errands I’m going to run today? No bearing, that’s what. That’s why I don’t concern myself with the unknowable; and that’s why I don’t feel any need to ascribe any supernaturalness to anything in life, including why the universe came into existence.

…(So do science-only believers if I may speak for them)

Yep, science-only (or in my case, natural only) has its limitations.

Hey you’re right, I never thought about it that way before. Good observation.

I look forward to hearing your reason you think everything has a reason

Let’s just say hypothetically that the Truth is that God has never existed and that zero supernatural events have occurred from the beginning of the cosmos (yes, even before there were multiple dimensions). If the existence of the cosmos has no supernatural nature, then all the "how"s SHOULD some day be knowable by science. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that’s where the science-only believers place their faith, hopes, and beliefs. But we know this can’t be true since either something magically poofed itself from nothing (unscientific), OR the cosmos has always existed, in which case a non-delusional science-only believer would NEVER expect to find the reason for our existence since we can never reach the beginning to find out what it was.

Other than the beginning of time (and maybe the end) of the cosmos, what else has the pontential to be permanently unknowable? If nothing supernatural has ever existed, then logically, everything should eventually be knowable. There’s nothing supernatural to get in our way. It just takes time. At least that’s how I see it.

 

[ManOnFire]

I believe that Christians who feel the need to viraciously argue faith attempting to use reason send the message that they are not entirely comfortable with the total surrender that our Lord asks for. We don’t need to prove that our faith is logical.

You see this manifested in some Catholics who are “miracle chasers” and prophecy buffs.

This isn’t my case, just in case you were wondering.

I am gifted with faith by God’s grace and I pray that atheists may be also. I have many friends who are atheists and agnostics and they are fine people. Some are, indeed more caring than Christians I know.

I agree.

 

[Warrior1979]

Please supply evidence for that assertion.

BTW “can be created” is not synonymous with “can create itself”…

It’s a basic, ubiquitous concept understood by anyone that has any modicum about how the universe was created. This conversation is like arguing about spelling when one doesn’t know the alphabet.

Start by reading about uncertainty principles and virtual particles.

Respectfully,

Your friendly neighborhood physics grad.

 

[samiam1611]

Let’s just say hypothetically that the Truth is that God has never existed and that zero supernatural events have occurred from the beginning of the cosmos (yes, even before there were multiple dimensions). If the existence of the cosmos has no supernatural nature, then all the "how"s SHOULD some day be knowable by science.

No no no no. There’s limitations to science, remember? Of course, when I picture this hypothetical world you suggest, I’m picturing the world as we know it. Do you agree there are limitations to knowing the “how” of the natural world? Like we can’t travel back and time with a video camera and record stuff happening and then come back to the present.

I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that’s where the science-only believers place their faith, hopes, and beliefs.

I’m not sure how many people are like that? That doesn’t sound all that logical so…I think we are in agreement!

But we know this can’t be true since either something magically poofed itself from nothing (unscientific), OR the cosmos has always existed, in which case a non-delusional science-only believer would NEVER expect to find the reason for our existence since we can never reach the beginning to find out what it was.

Right. A non-delusional science-only believer would not expect to find the reason for existence. Agreed again!

Other than the beginning of time (and maybe the end) of the cosmos, what else has the pontential to be permanently unknowable?

Oh all sorts of things. Complete knowledge of linguistics seems fundamentally impossible, for example.

If nothing supernatural has ever existed, then logically, everything should eventually be knowable. There’s nothing supernatural to get in our way.

The natural gets in the way. The laws of the universe restrict us from obtaining knowledge of some things.

It just takes time. At least that’s how I see it.

In that case, it seems you are the one with too much faith in science to obtain knowledge!

I’m not trying to bully people into having faith. I’m trying to open minds to consider the weakness of academia’s claims that it has a better answer, when it not only has no answer, it has a less logical theory, and it will NEVER have an answer, because it forever can’t solve something from nothing. People are being duped. That’s not enlightenment. If they’re going to come up with a better final answer, at least make it plausible without a supernatural mulligan.

So you prefer the “God did it” theory to the one that is based on evidence and observations of space and whatever because you see it as illogical/implausible. Do I have that right?

 

[ManOnFire]

It’s a basic, ubiquitous concept understood by anyone that has any modicum about how the universe was created. This conversation is like arguing about spelling when one doesn’t know the alphabet.

Start by reading about uncertainty principles and virtual particles.

Respectfully,

Your friendly neighborhood physics grad.

LOL! You do realize that they’re only theories, don’t you? This is just middle ground theory, coupled with the arrogant attempted “truth by academic pedigree” twist which still ignores the real question at hand. Intimidation won’t produce an answer. Way to deflect.

 

[Warrior1979]

LOL! You do realize that they’re only theories, don’t you? This is just middle ground theory, coupled with the arrogant attempted “truth by academic pedigree” twist which still ignores the real question at hand. Intimidation won’t produce an answer. Way to deflect.

Of course I realize they are theories. Everything is a theory. The “problem” with the theory, though, is that it is not purely theoretically and has experimental basis. It also makes perfect sense, at least if one doesn’t start with preconceived notions.

 

[tonyrey]

It’s a basic, ubiquitous concept understood by anyone that has any modicum about how the universe was created. This conversation is like arguing about spelling when one doesn’t know the alphabet.

Start by reading about uncertainty principles and virtual particles.

Respectfully,

Your friendly neighborhood physics grad.

Do you really believe you can understand how the universe was created from precisely nothing? That is the supreme act of faith!

You would be well advised to read some metaphysics…

 

[Warrior1979]

Do you really believe you can understand how the universe was created from precisely nothing? That is the supreme act of faith!

The human mind cannot understand all of reality, but it can understand various aspects of the truth. The more one opens their mind, the more one can understand reality. The more one closes one’s mind, the less one can understand reality.

You would be well advised to read some metaphysics…

No comment.

 

[tonyrey]

Do you really believe

Reality isn’t restricted to material objects…

You would be well advised to read some meta

physics…
No comment.

I made that statement to illustrate how such remarks are irrelevant to the topic.

 

[ManOnFire]

I don’t know that they think they’re entitled to this supernatural mulligan. I think they just close their eyes and stuff their ears to the fact that ultimately they NEED the mulligan because they themselves know that nothingness didn’t accidentally make somethingness.

Yes, that’s the closed-minded part that they refuse to see. As long as the science-only believers don’t look down on religious people, we won’t need to remind them that they have no ideology.

 

[ManOnFire]

Like we can’t travel back and time with a video camera and record stuff happening and then come back to the present.

Right. A non-delusional science-only believer would not expect to find the reason for existence. Agreed again!

The natural gets in the way. The laws of the universe restrict us from obtaining knowledge of some things.

So you prefer the “God did it” theory to the one that is based on evidence and observations of space and whatever because you see it as illogical/implausible. Do I have that right?

I meant that the hows and whys of the natural universe should one day be knowable (unless there’s an infinite number or they are still evolving) if there was never a supernatural event (which we know is impossible since we exist and we couldn’t have come from nothing). I didn’t mean to imply that we could “know” in the sense that we could go back and record history.

The “Supernatural did it” theory is the only one that is logical and makes sense since science-only needs a supernatural mulligan to explain existence.