Z
zz912
Guest
Hades is not hell. That seems to be your misunderstanding.
- Status
Z
zz912
Guest
I don’t pretend to think that I am pure or completely holy. I most certainly will need some purifying before entering Heaven. I have been forgiven, but that doesn’t mean that I have been purified of all flaws.
Do not call clean what God has declared unclean. After one has been cleaned in baptism, if they go on to sin later, they have made themselves unclean again. This must be cleaned through Jesus, either in penance here on earth or in purgatory, so that we are pure before entering Heaven.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)
Wait a minute. You already told me that heaven is 100% perfect. What happens to a perfection if you introduce an imperfection into it? Doesn’t that taint your perfection? Doesn’t that render it imperfect? How can we take all our imperfections into heaven to be purged of them afterward?
And doesn’t scripture tell us that nothing unclean can enter heaven? “Nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” (Revelation 21:27) How can we take our uncleanliness into heaven to be purged of it there?
And I’m exceedingly disturbed by your statement that we are rewarded accordingly for good and* bad*. We’re rewarded for bad? I assume that isn’t what you meant to say!
Can you quote anything from scripture to support your idea that we are purged after we enter heaven?
B
benhur
Guest
Agreed. I think Paul addresses this with the old man /new man discourse. It is the old nature that continues in you, the nature that was to have been put to death at baptism, that sins. We are to die daily to our flesh. I do not think he suggests the new man in you, living in the spirit, sins. I would think we do not go to heaven with our old nature, that it remains with the flesh and dies with the flesh here on earth. I understand you think it happens at purgatory, and right away upon death before entry to heaven. My question then is how do explain a later judgement seat of Christ, which is also a trial by fire, where you suffer loss for bad and receive reward for good works done in Christ. Is the judgement seat of Christ purgatory ?
In the end Jesus cleans us. if you want to say thru sacraments of baptism and confession, ok. But not sure penance cleans you. Restitution comes close but even there it is not done to be effectual, but is by product of being forgiven.
I have not heard that purgatory is a confessional, for He is just to forgive confessed sins. The Jews had a method or yearly rite to forgive even unconfessed sins and that God honors the attitude of brokenness and with the understanding that God knows our sins better than we do. So even unconfessed sin can be covered under the blood , without purgatory, without explicit confession.
But understand your dogma and you have patiently put it forth nicely.Thank you.
Bottom line we both agree that we shall be like Him, and will be eternally rid of our propensity to sin.
Blessings
T
Tomdstone
Guest
What is Hades? I thought there was only heaven, hell or purgatory. Is there a fourth place called Hades?
B
benhur
Guest
“and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins” so I would say purgatory is not about the forgiveness of sins, or to be made pure form them, but to expunge the very nature (the flesh) that has the tendency to sin. Would that be fair to say ?Kay Cee;13193996 [QUOTE said:
There is a difference between imperfect nature, the carnal man, the flesh, and consequences/judgement for sin. I am in no way saying the flesh/carnal, old nature enters heaven. I believe it is left behind at the grave. Otherwise we would continue battling sin tendencies in heaven. What does enter heaven is the new nature with a history that needs to be judged. History in itself is not evil. But things must be set straight , hence the judgement seat of Christ.
They are not taken into heaven.
We will not have the nature to tell lies, and will be true to our new name and nature in Christ.
Rev 22:12, “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works.” This is referred to the judgement seat of Christ where we are all judged as believers per Paul. It is said to be as with fire, where we suffer loss for bad and reward for good. It is used by many to suggests purgatory , yet it takes place at end times.
Rom 14:10, "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2 Cor5:10”
“Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” 1Cor 3:11-15.
based on rev 22, this judgement takes place at end times, not at death of believer. The “Day” will reveal it not purgatory.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
hades is greek for our english word "hell’’. It is the grave where all went before the resurrection of Christ and the opening up of gates of heaven. Sheol is the hebrew word for "grave’’. Within hades /sheol was a place of torment (gehenna/hebrew), and Abraham’s Bosom/Paradise with a gulf in between (per the rich man/Lazarus story). So today hades is hell/gehenna /fire. So we have no english word for old testament stuff and hell covers all those other greek/hebrew words(well we do have the word paradise,which used to be in hell).
Sorry .probably could have been written better
Blessings
C
chesterlab
Guest
The account of Christ’s death and resurrection mentions either purgatory or limbo as well. When he descended into “hell,” Christ wasn’t going into the bad place known as hell where there is eternal suffering, but rather to limbo or Abraham’s bosom, where the saints who had died before him were waiting, and where the thief who had perished on the cross beside him went after he perished. Christ then lead them all out of that place into heaven. While the bible isn’t clear on purgatory, it is kind of a relief to me, as someone coming out of a n evangelical background where you had better be saved before you die or else, that there isa place like purgatory where you can still be purified. We were taught in evangelical circles not to bother to pray for the dead because it was too late for them.
B
benhur
Guest
Hi C,
Purgatory does not negate the need to be saved, or be in God’s graces (without mortal sin). That is, by evangelical or Catholic standards doctrine, there is a prerequisite for entering the next stage, even purgatory. You must be heaven bound already .
As far as descending into hell, I disagree that it was limbo or purgatory . Hell is the grave, of which many believe contained both righteous and unrighteous (Paradise and Gehenna/fire). Why would Jesus not herald (preach) to all in the grave? The unrighteous are certainly mentioned, to " those who were disobedient long ago". Prison is a hard term for “paradise saints” and more suited for the unrighteous in gehenna/hell for they would remain there. That “He led captivity captive” and led them to heaven is a lighter way of putting it for the righteous who were in paradise.
As far as praying for the dead it depends what you mean. Not sure you can alter their destination, not their rewards or losses by the firey trial, for whatsoever a man sows he shall reap. But to talk to God in remembrance of them or to commend the departed to the believed destination of perfect, loving and just ''hands" in thankfulness ok.
Blessings
C
chesterlab
Guest
I am well aware of the “need to be saved.” Having spent my adult life amongst evangelicals, I am keenly aware of the fact that one must have a personal relationship with Christ in order to gain entrance into heaven and to have the expectation of being in the presence of the face of God for all eternity.
I must disagree with you on the issue of whether Christ descended into Limbo or Purgatory though, as opposed to hell, because that would mean that all those he lead out of that place were doomed to burn for eternity. I maintain that I must rely on Roman Catholic tradition, the Baltimore Catechism and the vast knowledge of my priest who taught me in RCIA class and who is a canon, and not just a father, and who led me into the church, as to my opinion. I am not going to argue with you, but will only say that I agree to disagree with you, Sir.
Have a wonderful and blessed day.
I must disagree with you on the issue of whether Christ descended into Limbo or Purgatory though, as opposed to hell, because that would mean that all those he lead out of that place were doomed to burn for eternity. I maintain that I must rely on Roman Catholic tradition, the Baltimore Catechism and the vast knowledge of my priest who taught me in RCIA class and who is a canon, and not just a father, and who led me into the church, as to my opinion. I am not going to argue with you, but will only say that I agree to disagree with you, Sir.
Have a wonderful and blessed day.
B
benhur
Guest
Hi C and sorry I did not notice before but welcome to CAF
I thought the Apostles Creed said Jesus after His death descended into “hell”. That He descended there does not mean He let the unrighteous out. Remember there was a gulf between the two, which could not be crossed. Jesus also told the thief on the cross He would see him shortly in “paradise”. Paradise was in hell (hades,sheol, the common grave) at that time.
Blessings
PS- appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut. Do not recall ever hearing that CC teaching that Jesus went to limbo /purgatory after His death.Also not sure if that negates that he also went into paradise .Thank you
PSPS OK looked it up on New Advent. Limbus patrum (limbo) is another name for “paradise” or Abraham’s Bosom and has same function as I described (holding place for righteous till heaven gates were opened) It is not purgatory however, but that indeed many passed thru it to enter limbo. newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
A
adamhovey1988
Guest
The Bible does not say this. I have read the whole thing, cover to cover. Anyway, logic. Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean may enter the Kingdom of heaven, and since, “All have sinned” (Romans 3:23), we are, by very definition, ineligible for the kingdom of heaven. So, how do we take this away? We go through a process of purification, since we are cleansed in HIS blood, I like to think this is evidence of the sufficiency of the atonement. God bless!The Bible proclaims there is only Heaven and Hell.
Thank you all for your answers.
B
benhur
Guest
Cool, me too.
Blessings
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
Purgatory is to purge us of any imperfection that stops us from entering heaven.
How do you know imperfect nature is left behind at the grave? How does that happen? Are you, right now at this very instant, perfect? If you were to die right now, how do your imperfections get “left behind at the grave”? Can you quote me scripture to support this idea?
Well, you seem to agree here there is a need for purgation, but you’re still not clear on exactly when and how this happens.
So at the Final Judgment we suffer loss for bad? After we’re in heaven? Doesn’t sound like a perfect heaven to me if we can suffer there.
Please go into detail how Revelation 22 shows this judgment “takes place at end times, not at death of believer.” I don’t see anything whatsoever in that chapter that says so.
I
IGotQuestions
Guest
Thanks for the answers everyone!
R
rcwitness
Guest
Nobody can be saved without the Catholic faith!
If a Buddhist does not willfully reject the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but is compelled to do His will in deed, then they have saving Catholic faith.
Only God knows what a person has rejected and has accepted. Most all of us accept and reject the Catholic Faith to some degree.
What we fall short of accepting of the Catholic faith in deed here in this world yet is not worthy of damnation from Christ the judge, will be forces upon our soul during our judgment from Him.
Purgatory is the anguish of knowing our resistance to God’s will while we were in this world and its destructive results.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Just to make sure there isn’t any confusion: when people refer to ‘limbo’, they aren’t referring to the limbus patrum (i.e., Abraham’s Bosom); they’re referring to the theological theory of the ‘limbo of the infants’ – that is, the eternal destination of those who are unbaptized but who have not committed sin. The limbus patrum is doctrinally taught (and backed up in Scripture); the ‘limbo of the infants’ is not a teaching of the Church (even though it was proposed as a solution to a particular problem, and was generally accepted for some time).
So, you’re correct about the ‘limbo of the patriarchs’, but be careful not to conflate it with what folks mean when they talk about ‘limbo’…
B
benhur
Guest
Ok That is what confused me with limbo was the child one. So do you still say limbo for limbus patrum, or not ? or if you do qualify it as for patriarchs as you say ?Just to make sure there isn’t any confusion: when people refer to ‘limbo’, they aren’t referring to the limbus patrum (i.e., Abraham’s Bosom); they’re referring to the theological theory of the ‘limbo of the infants’ – that is, the eternal destination of those who are unbaptized but who have not committed sin. The limbus patrum is doctrinally taught (and backed up in Scripture); the ‘limbo of the infants’ is not a teaching of the Church (even though it was proposed as a solution to a particular problem, and was generally accepted for some time).
So, you’re correct about the ‘limbo of the patriarchs’, but be careful not to conflate it with what folks mean when they talk about ‘limbo’…
B
benhur
Guest
Hi K
Have to get back to you . It can get quite befuddling, getting the sequence of judgements and resurrections and millennia etc… Thanks for your patience.
Blesings
J
jw2lds2catholic
Guest
I have not read all the responses so forgive me if I derail the thread a bit, but I wanted to share my understanding and rationalization of purgatory.
Our Father in Heaven is perfect. No unclean or imperfect thing can dwell with Him in heaven. But, Jesus died for our sins and paid the penalty for any and all sins which, as imperfect humans, we cannot do for ourselves. However, while the penalty of sin, death, has been paid once we accept it, we are NOT cleansed of the desire to sin.
This is why the ‘once saved, always saved’ system breaks down. Yes, I am a sinner. Yes, Jesus paid for my sins, but guess what. I am STILL a sinner. I can’t go to heaven until my heart toward is so pure that 1) I don’t want to sin, ever, even for the tiny eensy little sins I think, but don’t say or do, and 2) I can’t even commit a sin by accident. That means even when someone cuts me off on the highway or I stub my toe, I am incapable of even thinking of uttering a curse.
I recon that very few have achieved that level of perfection while on earth. Yet we are promised heaven for our faith in Christ. Enter purgatory, a way station to cleanse our souls of the slightest bit of sinfulness to perfect us to be in His presence for all eternity. God is so faithful that He will take all the time that is necessary to get us to Him.
Our Father in Heaven is perfect. No unclean or imperfect thing can dwell with Him in heaven. But, Jesus died for our sins and paid the penalty for any and all sins which, as imperfect humans, we cannot do for ourselves. However, while the penalty of sin, death, has been paid once we accept it, we are NOT cleansed of the desire to sin.
This is why the ‘once saved, always saved’ system breaks down. Yes, I am a sinner. Yes, Jesus paid for my sins, but guess what. I am STILL a sinner. I can’t go to heaven until my heart toward is so pure that 1) I don’t want to sin, ever, even for the tiny eensy little sins I think, but don’t say or do, and 2) I can’t even commit a sin by accident. That means even when someone cuts me off on the highway or I stub my toe, I am incapable of even thinking of uttering a curse.
I recon that very few have achieved that level of perfection while on earth. Yet we are promised heaven for our faith in Christ. Enter purgatory, a way station to cleanse our souls of the slightest bit of sinfulness to perfect us to be in His presence for all eternity. God is so faithful that He will take all the time that is necessary to get us to Him.
- Status