Why do Catholics believe in the Eucharist?

[josh987654321]

Thanks so much Josh.

My pleasure, thank you for reading

Indeed, not all Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. It may be confusing because the Orthodox do not believe that we Messianics are Jews…regardless of bloodline. But that’s simply not the case. Look at Ephraim or Manasheh.

I have never heard of Ephraim or Manasheh.

I think, as I mentioned that the issue I see with the miracles is that they aren’t necessarily proof that it happens every time.

The accidents of the Eucharist don’t change all the time, only in the miracles they have to assure us of his true presence in the Holy Eucharist.

The substance of the bread changes at consecration at every mass and becomes the Holy Eucharist (the substance being the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and accidents being the appearance of bread and wine). I would strongly recommend going into a Catholic Church and kneeling before the tabernacle (which contains the Holy Eucharist) at the front of the church and just allow Christ’s presence in the Holy Eucharist to warm your heart, that will be your proof.

Now, there’s not denying that Jesus is physically present at times in our life. I’ve had experiences and know others who have. But, to be honest, I don’t see enough proof to overrule the natural law that the bread and wine become physical flesh and blood yet don’t have the aspects of those. It seems sort of contradictory.

The proof is in the Gospels, in this passage - John 6:43-71

What else is Jesus Christ saying in this passage if not the Holy Eucharist that he instituted at the last supper where he said “This IS my body” & “This IS my blood”?

Here’s an example why:
Nicodemus asked Jesus “How can one be born again? Can he re-enter his mother’s womb?” Now, I’m sure many if not all of you think this is a silly question to ask because Jesus was obviously talking about spiritual matters, as I used to.
But it wasn’t until I researched it and found out that being “born again” was actually an ancient Hebrew term for being converted. Nicodemus was actually saying: “I’m already a Jew, so why would I need to be be converted? I can’t be physically reborn, can I?”
Just goes to show that despite our backgrounds, we are very far from understanding the culture and context of the Bible in many ways and can therefore interpret it wrong.

I can assure you that the Holy Eucharist was not interpreted wrongly. It was practiced by his first disciples and passed down through generation and generation of the Catholic Church, there are many, many passages on the Holy Eucharist.

So perhaps there is a similar explanation to the statements of Jesus regarding His body and blood that makes more sense than Transubstantiation and fits with the facts that the characteristics of the bread and wine don’t change?

Nope. He could not have made it any more clear in John’s Gospel and in all of the other Gospels at the last supper he say’s “This IS my body” & “This IS my blood”

mcrow summed it up well I think -

A simple thought on the subject is we do it because he told us to do it.

“**This is my body **given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

Note he says, “this IS my body” not this is “like” or “represents”…etc and that he clearly says , “do this”.

“This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood”

Also as John S said - As God, Jesus was able to affect reality with his words.

Let there be light and there was light

Lazarus come out and he came out

Little girl get up and she got up.

Storm be still and it was still

Your sins are forgiven. And they were forgiven

“I want to, Now you are well,” at once he was well

(Man with lots of demons in him) Jesus told them to go, and they went out of the man

“Hold out your hand” the man did and it became as healthy as the other one

He said “Effatha” Which means “open up” at once the man could hear

“you may go, your eyes are healed because of your faith.” Right away the man could see

Jesus said to the tree “Never again will anyone eat fruit from this tree.” “Teacher look the tree you had put a curse on has dried up.”

“I am not worthy, just say the word and my servant will get well.” The officer’s friends returned and found the servant well.

“you are now well” He placed his hands on her and right away she stood up straight and praised God.

So to…

This IS my body

This IS my blood

And it was so.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[luthier93]

Keep studying and most importantly praying my friend! Seek and you shall find, right? I’m glad you came here to ask questions. don’t be a stranger!

If you don’t mind, might I recommend a book? I think you may appreciate it since you come from a Messianic Jew background. It’s called “Jesus and the Jewish roots of the Eucharist” by Brant Pitre. It dives in deep on the Scriptural foundations much more than we have here. And as the title says, shows how the Eucharist was foreshadowed in the Old Testament and prepared by God. Really, really good. Maybe we can discuss what you thought about it after you read it ? I’d like to know what someone from a Jewish background thinks about it, since I have no way of telling whether its accurate or not.

Anyway, God bless you on your journey and keep asking questions!

Yes indeed!
Thanks for the book suggestion, I’ll try to look into it and get back to you. As I said before, I appreciate everyone’s comments and though I still don’t agree fully, I can see that there are definitely valid points in your arguments. So it’s something I’ll put more research into.

 

[luthier93]

I have never heard of Ephraim or Manasheh.

The sons of Joseph? Genesis talks about them. They became fathers of two tribes of Israel.

The proof is in the Gospels, in this passage - John 6:43-71

What else is Jesus Christ saying in this passage if not the Holy Eucharist that he instituted at the last supper where he said “This IS my body” & “This IS my blood”?
I can assure you that the Holy Eucharist was not interpreted wrongly. It was practiced by his first disciples and passed down through generation and generation of the Catholic Church, there are many, many passages on the Holy Eucharist.

I get your point and it’s valid for sure…but there can be a lot lost in translation and we don’t have firsthand knowledge that the first apostles practiced it. It’s interpretation or secondhand knowledge at best, so to me it isn’t enough proof. That’s just me personally of course.

 

[thenobes]

Very interesting, thanks for this insight. It’s not that I have an issue with Transubstantiation. Rather, the fact that it doesn’t seem to physically change yet is said to.

Can a physical body go through walls (as Christ’s Body did on Easter Sunday evening when He met the Apostles?

Can a physical Body be “transfigured”.

Then if Jesus extends His soul within a loaf of Bread and a cup of Wine, and they become His Body and Blood, why couldn’t He retain the appearances of Bread and Wine if He so wished?

peace
steve

 

[po18guy]

Very interesting, thanks for this insight. It’s not that I have an issue with Transubstantiation. Rather, the fact that it doesn’t seem to physically change yet is said to.

I tend to over-think many things. But, in this one regard, Jesus said quite clearly and directly, that what appeared to the Twelve to be bread and wine were now His Body and Blood. It’s in the synoptics, and Paul wrote clearly about the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11.

Saint Augustine of Hippo spoke to your situation: “Understanding is the reward given by faith. Do not try to understand in order to believe, but believe so that you may understand.”

I meant what I said about visiting an adoration chapel. Go and sit. Pray. Gaze upon the Eucharist. Ask our Lord to reveal that it is Him. And then, be as patient with God has He has been with you. As Fr. Benedict Groeschel says, “When you are aware that He is there, you will be changed.”

Do not let fear keep you away.

 

[Porknpie]

The sons of Joseph? Genesis talks about them. They became fathers of two tribes of Israel.

I get your point and it’s valid for sure…but there can be a lot lost in translation and we don’t have firsthand knowledge that the first apostles practiced it. It’s interpretation or secondhand knowledge at best, so to me it isn’t enough proof. That’s just me personally of course.

Luthier, suggest reading through scripturecatholic.com as well. It’s a great source for bible verses but also quotes from the early church fathers.

Of many to note, St Ignatius was a disciple of St John…who was an apostle of Jesus and Justin Martyr says that they have been taught about the Eucharist from the apostles and their descendants. No symbolic meal to be found. This is completely consistent with the Catholic interpretation of the bible in John 6. A bible written by, for and about the Catholic Church.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

 

[josh987654321]

I tend to over-think many things. But, in this one regard, Jesus said quite clearly and directly, that what appeared to the Twelve to be bread and wine were now His Body and Blood. It’s in the synoptics, and Paul wrote clearly about the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11.

Saint Augustine of Hippo spoke to your situation: “Understanding is the reward given by faith. Do not try to understand in order to believe, but believe so that you may understand.”

**I meant what I said about visiting an adoration chapel. Go and sit. Pray. Gaze upon the Eucharist. Ask our Lord to reveal that it is Him. And then, be as patient with God as He has been with you. As Fr. Benedict Groeschel says, “When you are aware that He is there, you will be changed.”

Do not let fear keep you away**.

:clapping: Great post.

Luthier93, what po18guy said

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[tp3192000]

Luthier, suggest reading through scripturecatholic.com as well. It’s a great source for bible verses but also quotes from the early church fathers.

“Of many to note, St Ignatius was a disciple of St John…who was an apostle of Jesus and Justin Martyr says that they have been taught about the Eucharist from the apostles and their descendants. No symbolic meal to be found. This is completely consistent with the Catholic interpretation of the bible in John 6. A bible written by, for and about the Catholic Church. ”

Great point. Profound evidence has been presented in this thread that is utterly ignored. Is there, in fact, a serious question here at all? First-hand evidence requires the Apostles to give direct testimony, however; I’m afraid St. Ignatius is irrelevant.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve talked to numerous Catholics, and though not one myself, I respect the Catholic Church.
However, though I know the origins of the Eucharist (Jesus’ proclamations at the Last Supper), I’m puzzled as to why it and the other sacraments are held to be so important, even to the point of bringing salvation. Especially, the fact of it being the actual blood and body of Jesus is puzzling…why?
Thanks for any explanations!

Could belief in the Catholic Eucharist be because Catholics believe in the reality of Adam?

John 3: 16; Romans 5:12-21; Genesis 1: 26-27 as sources.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I’ve talked to numerous Catholics, and though not one myself, I respect the Catholic Church.
However, though I know the origins of the Eucharist (Jesus’ proclamations at the Last Supper), I’m puzzled as to why it and the other sacraments are held to be so important, even to the point of bringing salvation. Especially, the fact of it being the actual blood and body of Jesus is puzzling…why?
Thanks for any explanations!

How are we to be saved?

 

[josh987654321]

Hey Luthier93,

I don’t know if you are still following this thread or will view this, but I really want to share this homily from pope Francis with you that is directed at belief in the Holy Eucharist. I would have shared it earlier, however I couldn’t find it until now.

Pope Francis - Homily

(Vatican Radio) Lukewarm Christians are those who want to build a church to their own specifications, but it is not the Church of Jesus: this is what Pope Francis said today during a Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae. Present at the Mass were volunteers from the pediatric dispensary “Santa Marta” in the Vatican, entrusted to the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, who for 90 years have supported children and families in need in Rome without distinction of religion or nationality. Listen RealAudioMP3

The first Christian community, after the persecution, lives a moment of peace, it is united, it walks and grows “in the fear of the Lord and with the comfort of the Holy Spirit”: This was the Pope’s comment following the reading from the Acts of the Apostles. It is this very air in which the Church lives and breathes, called to walk in the presence of God in an irreproachable manner:

"It 'is a style of the Church. To walk in the fear of the Lord is a 'sense of adoration, the presence of God, no? The Church walks and so when we are in the presence of God we do not do bad things or make bad decisions. We are in God’s sight with joy and happiness: this is the security of the Holy Spirit, that is the gift that the Lord has given us - this comfort - that keeps us going. "

John 6:41-71

Rejected by His Own

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

In the Gospel from the liturgy of the day many disciples truly believe the language of Jesus, they whisper, are shocked and eventually leave the Master:

"These people have turned away, they are gone, they say, ‘this man is a bit’ strange, he says things that are hard…It 's too big a risk to go down this road. We have common sense, eh? Let’s go ‘back a little and not so close to Him’. These people, perhaps, had a certain admiration for Jesus, but little ‘from afar: not to meddle too much with this man, because he says things that are a bit’ strange … ".

These Christians - the Pope said - " are not united in the Church, they do not walk in God’s presence, they don’t have the security of the Holy Spirit, they do not make up the Church":

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -

Pope Francis - Homily - Continued

"They are Christians of good sense only: they keep their distance. Christians - so to speak they are - ‘satellites’, that have a small church, in size: to quote the words of Jesus in Revelation, ‘lukewarm Christians’. The indifference that is in the Church … They walk only in the presence of common sense, common sense … that worldly prudence: This is a temptation just worldly prudence. "

Pope Francis reflected on so many Christians “that now bear witness to the name of Jesus, even unto martyrdom.” These - he says - are not ‘Christian satellites’, because “they go with Jesus on the path of Jesus”:

"These people know exactly what Peter says to the Lord. They understand exactly what Peter says the Lord, when** the Lord asks the question: ‘Do you also want to go**, be’ Christian satellites ‘?’. Simon Peter answers him: 'Lord, to whom shall we go? **You have the words of eternal life **’. So from a large group there becomes a group a little 'smaller, but those who know perfectly well that they cannot go somewhere else, because only He, the Lord, has the words of eternal life. "

The Pope finally recites this prayer:

"Let us pray for the Church, will continue to grow, unite, to walk in the fear of God and with the security of the Holy Spirit. May the Lord deliver us from the temptation of that ‘common sense’, and in inverted commas, “the temptation to whisper against Jesus, because it is too demanding, and the temptation from scandal. So be it. "

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=684817
of the Vatican Radio website

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh