Why do Catholics do that?

[Hope_Philomena]

War and the death penalty involve the killing of an aggressor and can be an act of self defense and therefor be justified if certain conditions are met. Abortion is the killing of an innocent person and is therefor an intrinsic evil and can not be justified.

What if giving birth is likely to lead to the mother’s death (see my post above)? In that case, would abortion not be considered an act of self defense? The mother is acting in self defense when she is aborting a baby that could lead to her death if she were to give birth to said baby.

 

[PJM]

Well, I have come across a different number of actions.

Sometimes, there are explicit statements on Catholics genuinely being “better” than everyone else. Catholics should naturally believe that they are following the one true religion, but I think an important distinction should be made: It is not that you are “better” it is that you are on the direct path towards salvation and pray for those who have yet to find this path. You are not above those who haven’t discovered the beauty of Catholicism. (I have not seen these explicit statements on this forum thankfully, only on other websites)

Sometimes the actions are more grey in nature, and while I cannot think of a specific example that wouldn’t reveal too much information, grey areas are certainly capable of being misinterpreted. I attempt to never be judgmental, but of course do not always succeed. It is perfectly possible that I have wrongly judged some.

THANK YOU! Beautifully expressed!

As the OP and a long time member of this FORUM, I too have never seen my fellow Catholics term themselves as “better than XXXX”

Many of us [MYSELF] included Do consider that we are more fortunate; and literally more BLESSED, thanks to the 7 Sacraments that Jesus grace to His RCC.

The issue of being judgmental is a tough one for us; because being factually the Only Church** that Jesus desired, founded and protects, imposes on US the obligation to

Know well our Catholic Faith [some of us do; many do not, at least yet]

Live in fully [some do some do not]

SHARE it when the HS gives one the opportunity [Thank God for CAF!]

Defend it when necessary

So while it may appear to be judgmental on our part; it is but LIVING fully our Catholic Faith. Amen

Welcome to CAF

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Good question! I’ve found that, often, Catholics are aware that there is a LOT in Catholicism; a lot of traditions, dogmas, and whatnot that are hard to explain, or they don’t feel that they know enough about them to explain well. So by opening the “can of worms”, so to speak, of talking about religion via Jesus, Catholics can be worried about confusing the person they’re talking to.

Sometimes we’re shy, sometimes we don’t know enough, and sometimes we just don’t want to talk about it at all (which, honestly, is the saddest option to me). I LOVE talking about Catholicism; I’m no apologist, and I don’t know everything, but I strive to share my faith with others when I can, when others want to learn. But yeah, I’ve found it’s pretty common for Catholics to be withdrawn like that; sometimes for good reason, sometimes not.

I will say, though, I know quite a few Catholics like me, and I know even more who won’t personally bring up religion, but if you address them politely and curiously, and are willing to learn rather than debate, they’ll open right up.

WOW! Thanks!

Well done!

GBY

 

[PJM]

Correct me if I’m wrong, though; can’t the sin of apostasy be cleansed if the person is genuinely contrite and returns to the Church to fulfill his or her penance?

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT [John 20:19-23]

God is awesome!

 

[PJM]

What motivates catholics to be pro-life? are there any Bible verses that speak about it?

SURE

Here are but a few of them

1. The 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt NOT kill
2. The 6th and 9th Commandments forbid adultery contraception & all sex outside of marriage]

Gen. 1:28 “And God blessed them, [Adam and Eve] and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

Gen 38:6-10
6] And Juda took a wife for Her his firstborn, whose name was Thamar. [7] And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him. [8] Juda, therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother’ s wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.** [9] He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother’ s wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother’ s name. [10] And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.**

2.Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

John.1 Verses 12 to 14
“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;** who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God**. “

ALL [no exceptions] life & death is GOD Ordained!

There is much more that could be shared here

GBY

 

[PJM]

I don’t think the Bible mentions abortion specifically but Catholics are not Sola scriptura. I think they didache if I recall correctly prohibits abortion.

ACTUALLY my friend, GOD"S 5th Commandment is “THOU SHALT NOT KILL”

Exodus chapter 20 & repeated in the book of Duet.

And THAT precisely covers Abortion

GBY

 

[PJM]

OK.

Why do catholics believe that that applies to an unborn child?

Here’s WHY

“Life” by definition means to BE ALIVE; & GOD"s 5th Commandment is THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

A baby has to HAVE a Soul to be alive, and that SOUL is implanted by GOD at the instant of inception.

Genesis 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. ‘I have acquired a man with the help of YAHWEH [GOD],’ she said

GBY

 

[PJM]

I’m allowed to ask questions, even if they may be controversial.

ABSOLUTELY!

Those are often the best kind!

GBY

 

[adamhovey1988]

ACTUALLY my friend, GOD"S 5th Commandment is “THOU SHALT NOT KILL”

Exodus chapter 20 & repeated in the book of Duet.

And THAT precisely covers Abortion

GBY

I have no problem believing that I am just saying so someone has a point of reference. I am pro-life womb to tomb but it’s really important to know early documents outside the Bible to know that Christianity has always opposed abortion and the Church is consistent in that

 

[PJM]

I have a question about this.

Why do Catholics allow extreme cases of war and death penalty, whereas they don’t allow extreme cases of abortion?

Please read this site for a fuller answer

ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

The SHORT answer is abortion is simply col-bloodied-murder even UNDER extreme circumstances

While the “Just War” doctrine hinges on self-protection

GBY

 

[PJM]

No disrespect taken…these are good questions.

It is notable that Fr. Flannery was highly respected in the Catholic Church (and among Jews) and was in fact assigned as the first director of Catholic-Jewish Relations for the U.S. Bishops’ Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs. Treatment of Jews over the centuries includes many dark periods…for both Catholics and Protestants. Note Martin Luther’s 1543 Treatise “On the Jews and their lies”. Sadly the positive actions of the Catholic Church toward Jews are almost always omitted in these discussions. For example, Pope Clement VI tried to protect the Jewish communities by two papal bulls (the first on July 6, 1348 and another 26 September 1348) saying that those who blamed the Black plague on the Jews had been “seduced by that liar, the Devil” and urging clergy to protect the Jews. Also, Pope Pius XI’s Encyclical “Mit Brennender Sorge” (“With Burning Anxiety”) promulgated in March 1937 was a stinging rebuke of the racist falsehoods being promulgated by the German Nazi regime. Israeli diplomat and historian Pinchas Lapide in his book “Three Popes and the Jews”, chronicles the overt and covert efforts of Pope Pius XII and two preceding popes that saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews during the Holocaust.

Just because a theological concept is difficult, doesn’t mean that it is untrue. Certainly the concept that the person of Jesus Christ is both human and divine is a difficult concept…yet one we all accept through faith. The Christian belief in the Trinitarian God does not contradict the truth that there is but one God. There is one nature and essence (God) and Three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). To better understand your position, what do you think Jesus’ relationship with the Father is?

Could you be more specific please?

Why is this important?

Catholics (and 99.0% of all Christians) celebrate Sunday as the new Sabbath because it has always been celebrated since biblical times on the 8th day…Christ’s resurrection from the dead, the day of the new creation. It is noteworthy that the only day in the Bible that the “breaking of the bread” is recorded taking place is the 1st day of the week: Sunday (Acts 20:7). We also have the testimony of Christian apologist Justin Martyr, who in about AD 150 wrote: “But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.” (First Apology, Chapter 67)

When we live in Christ, we become partakers in his divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). Peter and Paul raised people from the dead! That God allows the faithful in heaven to receive prayers and pass on to God petitions is certainly possible if God desires it. That fact that he desires that the saints intercede for us in heaven makes perfect sense to me. Our God, is the God of the living, not of the dead (Luke 20:38) and we are commanded to pray for one another and we are told that the prayers of the righteous are particularly effective (James 5:16). Who could be more righteous than those who live in the direct presence of God in heaven?! Those in heaven and us believers on earth are all members of Christ’s one body.

The use of statuary is not an offense against the prohibition of idolatry. If it is an offense then God would have been guilty of commanding idolatry when he told the Hebrews to construct in the inner sanctuary two huge gold plated Cherubim (1 Kings 6:23). It is only idolatry if one worships statues as if they themselves are God…which Catholics absolutely do not.

I hope this information is helpful to you!

Well done & THANKS!

 

[PJM]

Very young child pregnancies, ectopic pregnancy, etc etc. Things that endanger the life of the mother.

**This is wghat ir boils down too:

WHO"S IN CHARGE**

God or us?

Nothing. NOT one thing happens without God’s (name removed by moderator)ut! AMEN!

TAKE UP YOUR CROSS

Mt 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Lk 14:27 And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Phil 2:8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

Heb 12: 2 “Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.

GBY

 

[Hope_Philomena]

**This is wghat ir boils down too:

WHO"S IN CHARGE**

God or us?

Nothing. NOT one thing happens without God’s (name removed by moderator)ut! AMEN!

TAKE UP YOUR CROSS

Mt 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Lk 14:27 And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Phil 2:8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

Heb 12: 2 “Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.

GBY

I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you mean?

 

[drac16]

Question: does the Koran force you to be against killing people in general? I ask because I would be against that even if I were not religious, but a lot of people like to see abortion as a religious issue.

It says that if you murder one person, it’s as though you’ve murdered all of humanity. Life is sacred. It permits the taking of life in jihad, but the word jihad is almost universally misunderstood. When the Qur’an uses that word, it’s a fight against oppression. That’s why the Qur’an says “fight those who fight you”.

In the Sunni faith, there is a penalty for being a homosexual. They are to be thrown off of tall buildings or burned. I don’t subscribe to that view, though, and that is one of the reasons I left the Sunni faith. God never punishes someone based on what they desire to do, He punishes them for what they actually do, so it is contrary to Shariah to punish someone solely on the basis of having homosexual tendencies. I am against war unless it’s absolutely necessary; in the early muslims’ case, it was necessary because they were on the brink of extinction and the Qur’aish wanted to wipe them out.

Verses in the Madinah period are often taken out of context and are used to try to justify terrorism, but those verses were revealed for a certain people at a certain time. God gave the muslims permission to defend themselves. War should only be a last resort, in my opinion. The Sunni faith needs more compassion. My views are not necessarily consistent with that of the average muslim, since I am not part of the orthodox Islamic faith (Sunni Islam).

 

[tm21]

What if giving birth is likely to lead to the mother’s death (see my post above)? In that case, would abortion not be considered an act of self defense? The mother is acting in self defense when she is aborting a baby that could lead to her death if she were to give birth to said baby.

The moral principle of “double effect” applies in these situations. Essentially this principle means that the intended outcome can not be the intrinsic evil (bad effect), even though the evil,undesired action is likely to be a secondary outcome of the action. The intended good outcome (good effect) must outweigh the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect. For example, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, it would be morally permissible to perform a salpingectomy (removal of the affected section of the fallopian tube). The death of the embryo is a foreseen and unintended effect of an act directed at removing the pathologically affected section of the fallopian tube (the good action or effect). This is only permissible because the result of taking no action is sufficiently grave: the certain death of both the mother and child.

 

[Peter_J]

Very young child pregnancies, ectopic pregnancy, etc etc. Things that endanger the life of the mother.

But in the US at least, the vast vast majority of abortions are not any such cases. According to SCOTUS, there cannot be any law restricting abortion (even with the famous “health exception”) except for late-term abortions.

 

[Hope_Philomena]

But in the US at least, the vast vast majority of abortions are not any such cases.

Right, but I still choose to take into account the minority who do seek out abortions in these cases. Statistically small, but their lives are worth just as much. I think it’s important to take these rare cases into consideration, or else it would be a flawed system.

 

[Hope_Philomena]

The moral principle of “double effect” applies in these situations. Essentially this principle means that the intended outcome can not be the intrinsic evil (bad effect), even though the evil,undesired action is likely to be a secondary outcome of the action. The intended good outcome (good effect) must outweigh the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect. For example, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, it would be morally permissible to perform a salpingectomy (removal of the affected section of the fallopian tube). The death of the embryo is a foreseen and unintended effect of an act directed at removing the pathologically affected section of the fallopian tube (the good action or effect). This is only permissible because the result of taking no action is sufficiently grave: the certain death of both the mother and child.

This makes sense, but I am wondering: Is it sufficiently grave if it is an almost certain death of both the mother and child? Or does it need to be definitive?

Does the Church condone abortion when the death of the mother and the child is either definitive or almost definitive? I haven’t heard anything about this scenario, so I’m curious if there’s a Catholic stance on this?

 

[tm21]

This makes sense, but I am wondering: Is it sufficiently grave if it is an almost certain death of both the mother and child? Or does it need to be definitive?

Does the Church condone abortion when the death of the mother and the child is either definitive or almost definitive? I haven’t heard anything about this scenario, so I’m curious if there’s a Catholic stance on this?

Let’s put it this way…if it was YOUR life hanging in the balance, would you take (1) a chance of living…or (2) certain death? Why should the unborn child’s life count less than yours? Maybe this scenario would be helpful: You are in a plane that will soon crash. The pilot has only one parachute and it only fits him. You are his only passenger. The pilot tells you “It is possible we could live if I skillfully crash-land this plane, but our chances of death are very high”. The pilot knows if he jumps out…you face certain death. The pilot waves goodbye…and jumps from the plane…and you then die in the plane crash. The pilot committed an unjust act.

 

[Hope_Philomena]

Let’s put it this way…if it was YOUR life hanging in the balance, would you take (1) a chance of living…or (2) certain death? Why should the unborn child’s life count less than yours? Maybe this scenario would be helpful: You are in a plane that will soon crash. The pilot has only one parachute and it only fits him. You are his only passenger. The pilot tells you “It is possible we could live if I skillfully crash-land this plane, but our chances of death are very high”. The pilot knows if he jumps out…you face certain death. The pilot waves goodbye…and jumps from the plane…and you then die in the plane crash. The pilot committed an unjust act.

I don’t understand why this is unjust; maybe our moral compasses are different.