Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

[Brendan_64]

But in fairness to our Orthodox brothers and sisters, the One Church was both what later came to be called the Roman Catholic Church, and what later came to be called the Orthodox Churches. All the Churches were One in Faith until the thousand years was over and Satan was loosed for a little while to deceive the nations. Now, the Catholics see the Orthodox as in schism, while the Orthodox see the Catholics as in heresy. But prior to the completion of the first thousand years, there was but One Holy, Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic Church.

The only thing that is going to reunite them is Love.

You could say exactly the same thing about the Protestant Churches, except that their schism from the Catholic Church happened a lot later than that of the Orthodox Church.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

I propose that it is, Gavroche.

If you are in a church where you cannot say, “I really prefer that this teaching were not part of the deposit of faith, but God has declared it, so I conform my beliefs to His”…then you are in a church modeled after the Almighty Self.

For it stands to reason, does it not, that God is going to declare some things that are unpalatable to you and me, right?

In the interest of humble disclosure, I will give an example of my own struggle. I really, really, really wish that it wasn’t a teaching of the Catholic faith that divorce and re-marriage is adultery. There have been many a wedding that I wish I could have celebrated with, as my friend found happiness with a new spouse, but I cannot change the words of the Church. So I conform my views to Christ’s and do not make up a teaching like, “God wouldn’t care if my friend divorced her jerky husband and in fact celebrates with her as she finds happiness with her new sweetheart of a husband.”

The majority of the lay faithful don’t care about intricacies of doctrine or Church teaching and will have their own beliefs about the controversial topics, such as divorce and remarriage, with some choosing to receive Holy Communion regardless of what the Church teaches. I’m not saying this is a good thing, but I am saying that this is the situation on the ground.

In my opinion the reason that most people ACTIVELY leave the Church for another Christian group or non-Christian religion (as opposed to falling away/lapsing) is for one of two reasons: 1) They are poorly catechized and a charismatic Evangelical Protestant Pastor gives a talk that they like.

1. They are dealing with something like divorce and remarriage, contraception, healing after an abortion, homosexuality, etc. and a well meaning Catholic (cleric or lay) says something that is tactless and thus causes them to leave the Church because of this. I’m not saying that they are right on why they leave: I am saying that sometimes orthodox Catholics fail to convey Church teaching in a charitable or tactful manner.

 

[PRmerger]

The majority of the lay faithful don’t care about intricacies of doctrine or Church teaching and will have their own beliefs about the controversial topics, such as divorce and remarriage, with some choosing to receive Holy Communion regardless of what the Church teaches. I’m not saying this is a good thing, but I am saying that this is the situation on the ground.

:sad_yes:

In my opinion the reason that most people ACTIVELY leave the Church for another Christian group or non-Christian religion (as opposed to falling away/lapsing) is for one of two reasons: 1) They are poorly catechized and a charismatic Evangelical Protestant Pastor gives a talk that they like.

:sad_yes:

1. They are dealing with something like divorce and remarriage, contraception, healing after an abortion, homosexuality, etc. and a well meaning Catholic (cleric or lay) says something that is tactless and thus causes them to leave the Church because of this. I’m not saying that they are right on why they leave: I am saying that sometimes orthodox Catholics fail to convey Church teaching in a charitable or tactful manner.

:sad_yes:

 

[guanophore]

You could say exactly the same thing about the Protestant Churches, except that their schism from the Catholic Church happened a lot later than that of the Orthodox Church.

One may have been able to say that originally of Anglicanism especially, and in the early days of Luther’s rebellion, but not today. Schism does not include creation of new doctrines. That is why the Orthodox consider us in heresy. They see all ex cathedrad proclamations as the creation of new doctrines, just as we see the doctrines created by Protestants during the Reformation as heresies. Further, each generation of Protesatism drifts further and further from the once for all divine deposit of faith.

 

[PJM]

=guanophore;10762443]I think you absolutely hit this nail on the head, Constantine. This was a big factor for me in leaving. The Baptists taught me how to study Scripture, while I knew of no Catholics that even read the bible, much less tried to apply it to daily life. I realize now that I based my decision on ignorance of many things, but had there been any kind of invitation like the one the Baptist student fellowship made, I very well may have stayed.

Why is not going to many ANY difference to Our one God. WHY?

There are several reasons, among them are the follwoing.

God being necessarily Good and Perfect will; bcause God MUST in order to be God, Judge each of us NOT on what we choose to accept, or deny.

God will pass judgment on What HE HAS made POSSIBLE for us to know.

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

What both of you are either missing or choosing to ignore?

Is that jesus never promised us that Life “would be a rose garden.”

Becacuse Christ Suffered any one thinking there is another; a easier way; is just foolish and wrong.

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

What your both not understanding my friends, is that it’s ALL about devine Worship. Period end of Lesson.

That it is difficult; unplesant, not to your liking are simply irelelevant. These issues will NOT factor into your final judgment at all. Man ought not to expect it; because its not going to happen.

Now your issue of not having time to answer questions DEMANDS more information. Did the priest have an apointment perhpas. I’d be willing to bet $'s to doughnits that IF you bothered to call and make an appointment the priest WOULD finf time for what ever questiosn you may have.

Passing everything off “OH its HIS fault” is NOT fulfilling your part of the deal IMO.

guanophore; from past conversations your problem is a near complete lack of TRUE Faith. The Real presence for example. ANYONE who leaves the CC is factually abd really leaving God! For a lesser faith; easier standards and W/O Christ help. Amen

 

[PJM]

=PRmerger;10763337]:sad_yes:

:sad_yes:

:sad_yes:

Certainly you gave some good points.

The sadness is, as you claimed POOR Catechesis. These poor Souls very likely do not realize that in leaving the CC; they are effectivrely abandoning God personally.

Because God MUST judge based on what he makes possible for us to know; Souls leaving the CC are at grave risk.

 

[PRmerger]

guanophore; from past conversations your problem is a near complete lack of TRUE Faith. The Real presence for example. ANYONE who leaves the CC is factually abd really leaving God! For a lesser faith; easier standards and W/O Christ help. Amen

Huh? Are you talking about some other poster here named guanophore? Because I cannot make any sense of what you are saying if you mean the same guanophore that I’m thinking of!

 

[m134e5]

1.) They don’t know their faith.

and any or all of the following:

2.) Either they or their spouse are divorced and remarried and they are either unable to get an annulment or do not think the Church has any business in that part of their lives.

3.) Someone in the Church hurt them. Scandal, mistreatment by clergy, a bad experience in a Catholic school, a parish that just wasn’t friendly (I’ve been to a few), or any other similar social reason.

4.) Their faith was primarily a matter of cultural heritage, and either secularism or another church or religion drew them away from the Catholic Faith.

5.) They have lived a life of mortal sin, and their spiritual condition has grown so severe that they are indifferent to the things of God.

 

[guanophore]

Why is not going to many ANY difference to Our one God. WHY?

I think it does. People like myself who leave out of ignorance and hunger for spiritual growth may be judged in the light of their ignorance.

People who are poorly catechized and don’t understand their faith often go to other ecclesial communities because they believe they are following what God wants better.

What both of you are either missing or choosing to ignore?

Is that jesus never promised us that Life “would be a rose garden.”

Becacuse Christ Suffered any one thinking there is another; a easier way; is just foolish and wrong.

Protestant fundamentalism is not an “easier way”. In fact, it is much more difficult to live a Chrisrian life away from the Sacraments. And I can assure you that the disciplines of the Orthodox Church are far more stringent than the Latin Rite Catholic. Neither of us were looking for a “Rose Garden” but a more authentic and pure expression of the faith.

What your both not understanding my friends, is that it’s ALL about devine Worship. Period end of Lesson.

Well, you may not realize this PJM, but the Catholic Church recognizes the Apostolic Succession and the sacraments of the Orthodox as valid. So when Constantine attends His Divine Liturgy, he is participating in the same “devine” worship you are. And so to do I, when I attend the Byzantine Liturgy.

That it is difficult; unplesant, not to your liking are simply irelelevant. These issues will NOT factor into your final judgment at all. Man ought not to expect it; because its not going to happen.

Now your issue of not having time to answer questions DEMANDS more information. Did the priest have an apointment perhpas. I’d be willing to bet $'s to doughnits that IF you bothered to call and make an appointment the priest WOULD finf time for what ever questiosn you may have.

Passing everything off “OH its HIS fault” is NOT fulfilling your part of the deal IMO.

guanophore; from past conversations your problem is a near complete lack of TRUE Faith. The Real presence for example. ANYONE who leaves the CC is factually abd really leaving God! For a lesser faith; easier standards and W/O Christ help. Amen

 

[guanophore]

Why is not going to many ANY difference to Our one God. WHY?

I think it does. People like myself who leave out of ignorance and hunger for spiritual growth may be judged in the light of their ignorance.

People who are poorly catechized and don’t understand their faith often go to other ecclesial communities because they believe they are following what God wants better.

What both of you are either missing or choosing to ignore?

Is that jesus never promised us that Life “would be a rose garden.”

Becacuse Christ Suffered any one thinking there is another; a easier way; is just foolish and wrong.

Protestant fundamentalism is not an “easier way”. In fact, it is much more difficult to live a Chrisrian life away from the Sacraments. And I can assure you that the disciplines of the Orthodox Church are far more stringent than the Latin Rite Catholic. Neither of us were looking for a “Rose Garden” but a more authentic and pure expression of the faith.

What your both not understanding my friends, is that it’s ALL about devine Worship. Period end of Lesson.

Well, you may not realize this PJM, but the Catholic Church recognizes the Apostolic Succession and the sacraments of the Orthodox as valid. So when Constantine attends His Divine Liturgy, he is participating in the same “devine” worship you are. And so to do I, when I attend the Byzantine Liturgy.

That it is difficult; unplesant, not to your liking are simply irelelevant.

I agree, but that is the very reason ConstantineTG was so adamant about there being reasonsn people leave that are other than these. For example, someone posted up the threard that they were leaving because they did not like the public persona of the Pope.

Now your issue of not having time to answer questions DEMANDS more information. Did the priest have an apointment perhpas. I'd be willing to bet $'s to doughnits that IF you bothered to call and make an appointment the priest WOULD finf time for what ever questiosn you may have.

There are many priests that are way to busy. There are some priests that are not well equipped to answer profound theological questions. There are some that are not interested in doing so. I wish CTG had a better experience, but I also kmow there was much more to the decision than not getting attention from the parish pastor. It is really not our place to judge the spiritual journey of others.

Passing everything off “OH its HIS fault” is NOT fulfilling your part of the deal IMO.

No, but that is not what he said, either.

guanophore; from past conversations your problem is a near complete lack of TRUE Faith. The Real presence for example. ANYONE who leaves the CC is factually abd really leaving God! For a lesser faith; easier standards and W/O Christ help. Amen

You are right, when I left the Church I really did suffer from a nearly complete lack of true faitih. The sacramental life was a dead experience for me, and I was spiritually very ill. Fortunately, I am a lot better!

 

[ConstantineTG]

1.) They don’t know their faith.

I was a catechist for the RC Archdiocese and the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy

and any or all of the following:

2.) Either they or their spouse are divorced and remarried and they are either unable to get an annulment or do not think the Church has any business in that part of their lives.

Still married to the same woman whom I married in the Roman Catholic Church. Never been divorced, never been annulled, we have a wonderful marriage and 2 wonderful children.

3.) Someone in the Church hurt them. Scandal, mistreatment by clergy, a bad experience in a Catholic school, a parish that just wasn’t friendly (I’ve been to a few), or any other similar social reason.

I’ve had great relations with my bishops and priests and I still adore all of them.

4.) Their faith was primarily a matter of cultural heritage, and either secularism or another church or religion drew them away from the Catholic Faith.

One of the draws of my current Orthodox parish is that it is multi-ethnic.

5.) They have lived a life of mortal sin, and their spiritual condition has grown so severe that they are indifferent to the things of God.

Haven’t we all lived a life of sin? I became Orthodox because this is where I saw me having the greatest spiritual growth.

 

[guanophore]

Certainly you gave some good points.

The sadness is, as you claimed POOR Catechesis. These poor Souls very likely do not realize that in leaving the CC; they are effectivrely abandoning God personally.

Because God MUST judge based on what he makes possible for us to know; Souls leaving the CC are at grave risk.

This is quite true, PJM. I did not ever see a catechism. I thought that word applied to classes that were required that had little or no impact on my life, and did not hold the answers to life I needed.

I did not know God “personally”, as I had never had any kind of conversion experience, and did not learn how to relate to Him personally. I memorized prayers that never moved my heart, and went through the motions of sacraments with no participation of soul.

After I began fellowshipping with my separated brethren, I begane to experience God in a personal way that I had not before. My faith came alive, and the Scriptures came alive. I think what some people go lookimg for is this experience of life in Christ that they, for whatever reason, could not find where they were.

 

[mab23]

I’m in the process of leaving for one reason–Pope Francis. I really, really can’t stand this guy, and there’s no way I’m going to subjugate myself to his style of leading. Francis needs to stop with all of the phony humility and start acting like a pope should. Until then, I’m out of the Church. I’m done. I’m back to being a Methodist.

an odd reason I would think, all his teachings are consistent with church teaching and why would you state his humility is phony…??

 

[Jeanne_S]

Well, you may not realize this PJM, but the Catholic Church recognizes the Apostolic Succession and the sacraments of the Orthodox as valid. So when Constantine attends His Divine Liturgy, he is participating in the same “devine” worship you are. And so to do I, when !

Wrong!

 

[PRmerger]

Wrong!

Could you please explain your objection?

 

[guanophore]

Wrong!

Perhaps you can produce some official documentation to support your assertion? Maybe you have a Catholic source that contradicts the Catechism?

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”

In the East there is a valid line of Bishops back to Peter from the time he was in Antioch that is older than the Bishopric of Rome.

 

[guanophore]

Could you please explain your objection?

I would like to know why a person claiming to be Catholic disagrees with what is written in her own catechism…

 

[ConstantineTG]

There are many priests that are way to busy. There are some priests that are not well equipped to answer profound theological questions. There are some that are not interested in doing so. I wish CTG had a better experience, but I also kmow there was much more to the decision than not getting attention from the parish pastor. It is really not our place to judge the spiritual journey of others.

I wouldn’t say my experiences were bad. I was active in the last two parishes I was a part of (one RC, one UGCC). I had good contact and relations with the priests. There was simply something missing for me.

 

[Jeanne_S]

My understanding,per an ongoing class on the Cathecism,is there are 23 Catholic Churches(every ritual type of the apostolic churches of the catholic world can be found in the Roman Catholic Church) Orthodox is not one of them.The ones that are in communion are East Syrian(those under that heading)WestvSurian(Marionitr,Syrian,Syro-MalankarvChurch,Melekite Greek Church(both Syrian and Byzantine) Alaxandrian(CopticChruch,Ethiopian Church)ArmenianChurch,Byzantine Church(there are thirteen churches under this heading)

 

[PJM]

=guanophore;10764700]I think it does. People like myself who leave out of ignorance and hunger for spiritual growth may be judged in the light of their ignorance.

People who are poorly catechized and don’t understand their faith often go to other ecclesial communities because they believe they are following what God wants better.

Protestant fundamentalism is not an “easier way”. In fact, it is much more difficult to live a Chrisrian life away from the Sacraments. And I can assure you that the disciplines of the Orthodox Church are far more stringent than the Latin Rite Catholic. Neither of us were looking for a “Rose Garden” but a more authentic and pure expression of the faith.

Then my friend let US pray that God finds your feelings to be of greater sinnificance than his Devine will.

Well, you may not realize this PJM, but the Catholic Church recognizes the Apostolic Succession and the sacraments of the Orthodox as valid. So when Constantine attends His Divine Liturgy, he is participating in the same “devine” worship you are. And so to do I, when I attend the Byzantine Liturgy.

I FULLY agree with that statement.

PJM

I agree, but that is the very reason ConstantineTG was so adamant about there being reasonsn people leave that are other than these. For example, someone posted up the threard that they were leaving because they did not like the public persona of the Pope.

AND with this one too

There are many priests that are way to busy. There are some priests that are not well equipped to answer profound theological questions. There are some that are not interested in doing so. I wish CTG had a better experience, but I also kmow there was much more to the decision than not getting attention from the parish pastor. It is really not our place to judge the spiritual journey of others.

Again I agree; BUT no judgment bu me; only shared truth and direction OFFERED.

You are right, when I left the Church I really did suffer from a nearly complete lack of true faitih. The sacramental life was a dead experience for me, and I was spiritually very ill. Fortunately, I am a lot better!

God Bless you,

pat/PJm