Why do Catholics pray to Saints........

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ok ok ok …more questions…ugh!!!

But first…you all for the most part are talking so nicely to each other:egyptian:

Second…it’s nice that for the most part you all are answering my oh so many questions. Thank you for your patience.

Thirdly…to Zerinus…There are many who can look at our bielfs and when confronted with a biblical backup we can’t. Why??? Because it’s backed up through the Bof M. I don’t want to start anything, it’s just step back. As a missionary, I was asked to back up everything the church has/does using only the Bible. You know what it can’t be done. From what I understand, asking a saint in heaven (yes, I mean a cannonized one) to go before God and interced on their behalf brings as much comfort as we recieve while doing work in the temple. I think it’s a beautiful thing!!! There, I said it!

I finally understand something that no one has ever taken the time to explain to me. I believe that it’s a wonderful, comforting, and beautiful thing to pray. When we pary, we transend all dominations, time, cultures, and anything else. We are one voice before our God. How beautiful is that?

I am glad that many of you are taking that time to even grow in your personal knowledge of your churches belifs. You will only grow stronger in your testamony.

Now…someone mentioned the prayers of the rosary…how are they picked?
 
OK let me ask this question. The LDS in this thread seem to take issue with intercessory prayers by the Saints and the Blessed Mother because in your eyes they are dead. In the past I have asked you on another thread about your practice of baptism of the dead by proxy. You explained that yes you do that but it is up to the dead person if they want to accept that or not, or words top that effect. However if that person is dead, and according to your argument here, the dead cant hear or know what we are doing in the living world, how are they ever going to know that you did it for them in the living world and then accept in the spirit world. Seems like you want your cake and eat it too. You cant say its OK for us and then say no you are wrong it doesn’t work that way for you. I am not understanding your logic. 🤷 Peace.
 
I read the PDF…but it doesn’t answer my question. Let me try to reword it…I understand where the “Our Father” is taken; but the other prayes…why them? They aren’t like the Our Father. I understand the Bible refernces behind them…but why??? For example…when we the blessing for our sacrement (communion) we get that prayer from ous scriptures(DC 20).
 
Catholic_to_LDS said:
I read the PDF…but it doesn’t answer my question. Let me try to reword it…I understand where the “Our Father” is taken; but the other prayes…why them? They aren’t like the Our Father. I understand the Bible refernces behind them…but why??? For example…when we the blessing for our sacrement (communion) we get that prayer from ous scriptures(DC 20).
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Perhaps it may be better to start a thread on the rosary. Besides the Our Father, there is the Hail Mary, which is based on two scriptural verses, as well as a request for Mary to pray for us. The other prayers were written throughout Catholic history by various faithful. There is also the Apostles’ Creed, which came around perhaps in the late 300s to early 400s AD.
 
Catholic_to_LDS said:
I read the PDF…but it doesn’t answer my question. Let me try to reword it…I understand where the “Our Father” is taken; but the other prayes…why them? They aren’t like the Our Father. I understand the Bible refernces behind them…but why??? For example…when we the blessing for our sacrement (communion) we get that prayer from ous scriptures(DC 20).
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Try this LINK and see if that answers your questions. Also try this **LINK **. In essence it is a meditation on the life of Christ with two regarding the Blessed Mother. In all, it leads us to know Christ more. The link will expand and explain it more, If not, let me know and I will see what more I can do. Peace:

The Five Luminous Mysteries
Thursday
  1. The Baptism in the Jordan
  2. The Wedding at Cana
  3. The Proclamation of the Kingdom
  4. The Transfiguration
  5. The Institution of the Eucharist
The Five Joyful Mysteries
Monday & Saturday
  1. The Annunciation: Humility
  2. The Visitation: Charity
  3. The Birth of Our Lord: Poverty, or detachment from the world
  4. The Presentation of Our Lord: Purity of heart, obedience
  5. The Finding of Our Lord in the Temple: Piety
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries
Tuesday & Friday
  1. The Agony in the Garden: Contrition for our sins
  2. The Scourging at the Pillar: Mortification of our senses
  3. The Crowning with Thorns: Interior mortification
  4. The Carrying of the Cross: Patience under crosses
  5. The Crucifixion and Death of Our Lord: That we may die to ourselves
The Five Glorious Mysteries
Sunday & Wednesday
  1. The Resurrection: Conversion of heart
  2. The Ascension: A desire for heaven
  3. The Coming of the Holy Ghost: The Gifts of the Holy Ghost
  4. The Assumption of our Blessed Mother into Heaven: Devotion to Mary
  5. The Coronation of our Blessed Mother: Eternal happiness
 
Catholic_to_LDS said:
ok ok ok …more questions…ugh!!!
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That’s not a bad thing. 🙂
Catholic_to_LDS said:
Now…someone mentioned the prayers of the rosary…how are they picked?
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The rosary, as I understand its history, developed as a convergence of popular prayer traditions.

Back in the day, monks and nuns prayed the whole Psalter daily. Many laypeople wanted to imitate this devotional practice, but before the printing press was invented, a Psalter was a very expensive item and literacy was uncommon. At the same time, most laypeople had a lot of manual labor to do. So the practice of praying a shorter prayer, well known or easily memorized, 150 times became popular: usually the “Our Father.”

Around the same time period, the “Angelic Salutation,” the first part of the “Hail Mary” was also a popular prayer. So some people began praying 150 Hail Marys and interspersing them with Our Fathers. This didn’t all happen at once, but developed over time.

The development of strings of beads (the word “bede” is itself an old English word for prayer) or knots to assist the counting of prayers is probably older than the practices mentioned above, but naturally got folded into this practice of praying 150 prayers.

The practice of praying these 150 vocal prayers while meditating on “mysteries” or events from the lives of Jesus and Mary was widely popularized and broadcast by people like Dominican preachers. The Dominicans saw the rosary devotion as an especially helpful tool to preserve the Catholic faith in places where Gnostic groups were spreading their doctrines. Meditating on the very real incarnation of Jesus, while praying vocal prayers that reinforce it, helped “immunize” Christians against the Gnostic idea that material bodies are evil or, at the very least, inconsequential.

Now you might be thinking, “But most rosaries only have 59 beads. What’s this 150?” On that string of 59 beads, there are 5 groups of 10 beads called “decades.” Those 50 would originally be done 3 times, totaling 150. Each decade in that 150 has its own mystery for meditation, so there were originally 15 mysteries.

There have always been and still are some variations in the rosary, and it continues to develop. We have a pretty standard set of mysteries now, but if I’m not mistaken they used to vary somewhat-- e.g. Dominicans favored some and Franciscans favored others. And in some places today, though the practice has not caught on everywhere, the mystery on which a person is meditating is added to the Hail Mary itself, like “and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus, praying in Gethsemane.” And Pope John Paul II promoted the Luminous Mysteries, bringing the total number of mysteries to 20 (this also means that if you pray all of them at once, the decade beads exceed the number of Psalms by 50).

I hope that helps answer your question?
 
We belong to the communion of saints…after all Scripture says heaven watches us with a thousand eyes…

There is that number again, ‘thousand’ which was humongous probably in ancient people’s minds…a day in the Lord is as a thousand years…

Anyway, when I die, if I should be allowed into heaven, I don’t want to be there in bliss but I want to pray for people on earth, having known the struggles they have gone through…
 
This is taken from THE NEW CATHOLIC ANSWER BIBLE H-4 “Why do Catholics Pray to Saints and Angels?”

When the Jewish general Judas Maccabeus leads the resistance against the Greek occupation of their country, he tells his soldiers about “a dream, a kind of vision, worthy of belief” (2 Mc 15:11). In this vision, the general saw Onias, a former high priest who has died, “praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community” (15:12). Then he saw “God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethern and fervently prays for his people and their holy city” (15:14). In part through the assistance of these two Old Testament saints, the Jewish fighters win their battle.

The angel Raphael tells the couple Tobit and Sarah: “When you—prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord” (Tb 12:12). Then the angel reveals that God sent him to heal them in answer to their prayer (see 12:14).

The New Testament displays similar scenes. Jesus’ parable of Lazarus the beggar (see Luke16:19-31) assumes that the deceased man is aware of those still living, is concerned with them, and wants to pray for them. In St. John’s Revelation, the Christian martyrs in heaven know what is happening on earth and they pray to God to accomplish justice there. In addition, both the saints and the angels in heaven bring to God’s throne "the prayers of the holy ones (see Rv 6:9-11; 5:6-8; 8:3-4).

In such passages, we find the saints and angels mediating before God for believers on earth, either interceding or otherwise assisting them. (In the parable, even someone in hell is attempting to do so, if unsuccessfully.) Does this conrtradict St. Paul’s statement that “there is —one mediator between God and the human race,/Christ Jesus” (1 Tm 2:5)? No, because the apostle wasn’t excluding the participation of others in Christ’s mediating role.

In fact, whenever Christians pray for one another, whether in heaven or on earth, they are doing just that. In a similar way, Jesus is the “chief” Shepherd of his flock (see Jn 10:11-16; 1 Pt 5:4), yet he assigns lesser shepherds to take part in this ministry (see Jn 21:15-17; Eph 4:11).

Catholics ask the saints and angels for their help, then, for the same reason they ask Christians on earth to pray for them and assist them in other ways: It has pleased God to make us interdependent as members of Christ’s Body (see 1 Cor 12:12-27).
 
zerinus said:
Thanks for your explanation; but from my point of view, the fact that there is no biblical precedent for it makes it a very questionable act. The Bible records the words and actions of thousands of ancient prophets, patriarchs, Apostles, disciples, and saints of God throughout the history of creation, from Adam until Christ; yet there is not a single recorded instance of even one of them petitioning another supernatural being other than God for their support. There are many examples of them praying directly to God for what they have needed; but not a single instance of them praying to a dead saint. That to me makes it a highly questionable practice, to say the least.
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The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
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In the same vein, the angel Raphael says “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord,” (Tobit 12:12).
 
aspirant said:
In the same vein, the angel Raphael says “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord,” (Tobit 12:12).
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Playing devil’s advocate here: Did Tobit and Sarah pray to/with Raphael? This verse certainly shows angels playing an intercessory role, however it seems that Tobit and Sarah prayed to God, and not Raphael, even though Raphael did present the prayer/intercede before God.
 
We’re working way too hard on this one folks.

Exactly like when you ask a friend to pray for you for some need.
That’s the catholic stance on this

Now , consider the possibilities if that friend were in Heaven, before God…

See the light ? 😊
 
Bob4BVM said:
There you have it !
Thx rinnie…

Those is Heaven are every BIT as alive as we are, maybe even more so !
We are united with them in the great Body of Christ, His Church, which includes ALL His followers wherever thay happen to be–on earth, in heaven, or in purgatory(on their way to Heaven).
If that sounds like too much to believe, this one will be a real toughie for you Zerinus:
They are ALL present with Him at every Holy Mass. 🙂
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For lds, heaven is a place of work. I don’t think that they believe that there will be much time for relaxation. I think that it comes down to what role people will play in the afterlife. Mormons do not pray to specific people such as Peter, James, and John. Not would they pray to any catholic site. For them it is between them and heavenly father. And there needs to be no other human spirit to pray too.

And since the lds are big on families both alive and dead, they would have the concept that their ancestors are routing for them to finish the journey well so they could be with the father and son in the afterlife.
 
why_me said:
For lds, heaven is a place of work. I don’t think that they believe that there will be much time for relaxation. I think that it comes down to what role people will play in the afterlife. Mormons do not pray to specific people such as Peter, James, and John. Not would they pray to any catholic site. For them it is between them and heavenly father. And there needs to be no other human spirit to pray too.

And since the lds are big on families both alive and dead, they would have the concept that their ancestors are routing for them to finish the journey well so they could be with the father and son in the afterlife.
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In the first paragraph, it should read. Nor would they pray to any catholic saint. 🙂
 
why_me said:
In the first paragraph, it should read. Nor would they pray to any catholic saint. 🙂
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I find it funny a religeon who got it’s start talking to an Angel in the woods and swears Catholics do not believe in Revelation wants to tell me what I should believe​

Book Of Genesis Chapter 48 16 The angel that delivereth me from all evils, bless these boys: and let my name be called upon them, and the names of my fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and may they grow into a multitude upon the earth.

Guardian angels Tobit 12:12; Mt 18:10; Acts 12:11; 15
If Abraham asked for an Angel’s blessing - Why shouldn’t I?
 
Catholic_to_LDS said:
Thirdly…to Zerinus…There are many who can look at our bielfs and when confronted with a biblical backup we can’t. Why??? Because it’s backed up through the Bof M. I don’t want to start anything, it’s just step back. As a missionary, I was asked to back up everything the church has/does using only the Bible. You know what it can’t be done. From what I understand, asking a saint in heaven (yes, I mean a cannonized one) to go before God and interced on their behalf brings as much comfort as we recieve while doing work in the temple. I think it’s a beautiful thing!!! There, I said it!
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I consider prayer to be an act of worship. When we pray to God, we acknowledge the existence of a supernatural being whom we do not see, but whom we recognize as being omniscient and omnipotent, and who is therefore able to hear our prayers and answer them. It is an act of faith. Praying to a dead saint is not the same thing as asking a living person to pray for us; it elevates them to the level of the Deity. When you ask a living person to do something for you or to pray for you, you are talking to someone whom you can see and hear, and whom you know can hear you and answer you back. It is not an act of faith. But praying to a supernatural being whom you do not see (which is what a dead person is), is an act of faith which should only be offered to a Deity. It is an act of worship. Jesus gave us the pattern of how we should pray:

Matthew 6:

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

This model of prayer, established by the Lord Himself, informs us exactly how we should pray. It informs us, firstly, that God already knows what we have need of before we ask Him. Secondly, we address our petitions directly to Him, not to some intermediate “Saint”. We don’t say, “Our Saint which is in heaven”. We say, “Our Father which art in heaven”. If you want to ask a Saint to pray for you, you ask him when he is still alive, not when he is dead! When he is dead, he is gone, and he can’t hear nor answer anyone’s prayer. I like what Ecclesiastes says about the dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Once a person is dead, he is gone, and you don’t pray to him, petition him, or ask him any questions. That is like soothsaying, which was forbidden in the Old Testament. We address our prayers to God alone, as Jesus said, and not to anything or anyone else. I like something else that Isaiah said:

Isaiah 8:

19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

We pray to God in order to hear from the dead; we don’t pray to the dead in order to be heard by God! It is contrary to the scriptural pattern that we should ask or petition any unseen or supernatural being by any means, either directly or through a spiritual medium, other than God Himself, for any purpose whatsoever. That is an act of faith and worship that should only be afforded to the Deity, and is contrary to the letter and the spirit of the gospel, and of the scriptures.
 
I’m Sorry but the state of the dead (saints) are quite clear in the bible.

How did we get here in the first place?

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7.

Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

What Happens When a Person Dies?

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies–whether righteous or wicked–returns to God at death.

What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death?

“The body without the spirit “breath,”] is dead.” James 2:26. “The spirit of God “the breath which God gave him,”] is in my nostrils.” Job 27:3.

Answer:The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

What is a Soul?

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7.

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we are souls.

Do Souls Die?

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:20. “Every living soul died in the sea.” Revelation 16:3.

Answer: According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

Do good people go to heaven when they die?

“All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” John 5:28, 29. “David … is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.” “For David is not ascended into the heavens.” Acts 2:29, 34. “If I wait, the grave is mine house.” Job 17:13.

Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

How much does one know or comprehend after death?

“The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.” “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. “The dead praise not the Lord.” Psalm 115:17.

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

But can’t the dead communicate with the living, and aren’t they aware of what the
living are doing?

“So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” “His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.” Job 14:12, 21. “Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.” Ecclesiastes 9:6.

Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4).
Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead “sleep” in John 11:11-14. How
long will they sleep?

“So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more.” Job 14:12. “The day of the Lord will come … in the which the heavens shall pass away.”
2 Peter 3:10.

Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.
What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?

“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Revelation 22:12. “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, … and the dead in Christ shall rise … and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. “We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, … and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.
Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?

“They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, … Neither can they die any more.” Luke 20:35, 36. “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4.

Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God’s new kingdom.
 

I’m Sorry but the state of the dead (saints) are quite clear in the bible.​

And what Bible are You reading?
John 12:17
17 The multitude therefore gave testimony, which was with him, when he called Lazarus out of the grave, and raised him from the dead.

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose
 
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