J
JustaServant
Guest
Any thoughts?
Why do certain Protestant churches reject Liturgical worship?
- Status
L
ltwin
Guest
There is something mechanical to it. Something artificial. Like its too easy to get into a routine and go through the motion. To value the ritual and the pattern but lose the real meaning behind it.
Does that make sense?
I mean the truth is that in reality all of the above can be said about non-liturgical worship as well. Every non-liturgical church, even the most free flowing, still has a set pattern that they use. Open with prayer, sing songs, take up the offering, preach a sermon, altar call, etc. You can get lost in the motions and lose the meaning. You can value the non-liturgy at the expense of the true reason for worship.
Oh and some would argue that simple is better. That we should keep worship as simple as possible, which makes it easier to keep the focus on God.
That might be a generic answer.
As a Pentecostal, I would respond that a liturgy could stop the Holy Spirit from doing something that he wanted to do. What if he wanted to speak through someone with a word of prophecy?
Or he spontaneously blessed the socks off someone and they couldn’t contain their joy and just started shouting. Then other people just started gettin blessed to and then the whole church just loses itself in God …? In a setting like that, liturgies would be too constricting. I guess Pentecostals value the spontaneity of the Spirit.
Anyway that was what I’d say.
And that’s not to say that I don’t like liturgy. I’ve been to Episcopal churches twice and thought the service was lovely and uplifting. Its not what I’m used to and I enjoy the different atmosphere. Someday I might visit a Catholic service.
Does that make sense?
I mean the truth is that in reality all of the above can be said about non-liturgical worship as well. Every non-liturgical church, even the most free flowing, still has a set pattern that they use. Open with prayer, sing songs, take up the offering, preach a sermon, altar call, etc. You can get lost in the motions and lose the meaning. You can value the non-liturgy at the expense of the true reason for worship.
Oh and some would argue that simple is better. That we should keep worship as simple as possible, which makes it easier to keep the focus on God.
That might be a generic answer.
As a Pentecostal, I would respond that a liturgy could stop the Holy Spirit from doing something that he wanted to do. What if he wanted to speak through someone with a word of prophecy?
Or he spontaneously blessed the socks off someone and they couldn’t contain their joy and just started shouting. Then other people just started gettin blessed to and then the whole church just loses itself in God …? In a setting like that, liturgies would be too constricting. I guess Pentecostals value the spontaneity of the Spirit.
Anyway that was what I’d say.
And that’s not to say that I don’t like liturgy. I’ve been to Episcopal churches twice and thought the service was lovely and uplifting. Its not what I’m used to and I enjoy the different atmosphere. Someday I might visit a Catholic service.
J
JustaServant
Guest
When I was a preacher, there were many times I used to ‘wing it’, in regards to the sermon, music, ect. So, as you can imagine, you never knew what was going to happen from one Sunday to the next. So many churches resemble more like a informal meeting on somebody’s back porch, there is no sense of sacredness.
In a liturgical church however, the order of a liturgy in its structural framework must be unaltered.
Without a fixed order, a liturgy is like a body without a skeleton, a game without rules.
A fixed order is necessary if worship is to be corporate.
A fixed order keeps the fact of redemption before men’s thoughts continually with fixedwords, expressions and symbolism.
The early Church had a high view of God. Things were not done in a haphazard way. They were done with precision. Worshippers knew something important was happening here. They just did not stumble in and sit for an hour. Abuses occur when we forget.
Catholic worship, on the other hand, is not without meaning. When matched with the Power of the Holy Spirit, Catholic liturgy finds it’s most powerful expression. Words, prayers, creeds, and songs are chosen carefully.There is precise language that is used, not words chosen in a haphazard way. The language of worship is important, words must be chosen carefully.
The object in liturgical worship is God alone. Not the preacher, not the music. It is a corporate expression of worship to an invisible God. It is not a spectator sport, it is an interactive experience. The center of that interactivness is the Eucharist.
One of the chief values of a liturgy is that it teaches us both how to pray and what things we should pray for.
Jesus said “true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”
We do not dictate to God how He is worshiped. It’s not about us, its about giving Him a sacrifice of praise for what He has done for us.
In a liturgical church however, the order of a liturgy in its structural framework must be unaltered.
Without a fixed order, a liturgy is like a body without a skeleton, a game without rules.
A fixed order is necessary if worship is to be corporate.
A fixed order keeps the fact of redemption before men’s thoughts continually with fixedwords, expressions and symbolism.
The early Church had a high view of God. Things were not done in a haphazard way. They were done with precision. Worshippers knew something important was happening here. They just did not stumble in and sit for an hour. Abuses occur when we forget.
Catholic worship, on the other hand, is not without meaning. When matched with the Power of the Holy Spirit, Catholic liturgy finds it’s most powerful expression. Words, prayers, creeds, and songs are chosen carefully.There is precise language that is used, not words chosen in a haphazard way. The language of worship is important, words must be chosen carefully.
The object in liturgical worship is God alone. Not the preacher, not the music. It is a corporate expression of worship to an invisible God. It is not a spectator sport, it is an interactive experience. The center of that interactivness is the Eucharist.
One of the chief values of a liturgy is that it teaches us both how to pray and what things we should pray for.
Jesus said “true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”
We do not dictate to God how He is worshiped. It’s not about us, its about giving Him a sacrifice of praise for what He has done for us.
C
cajunhillbilly
Guest
I think some reject liturgy because it smacks to much of “Romanism”. I don’t. I love liturgy and prefer liturgical worship. My greatest worship experience was at a Catholic Charismatic mass where they had liturgy, but allowed for the freedom of the Spirit at the same time. The priest was a Franciscan. I have come to have great respect for the Franciscans. Just my 2 cents.
L
ltwin
Guest
On this we agree. Worship is not for spectators. That is why Pentecostals use our whole bodies when we worship. We sing, we dance, we cry, we shout, we lift up our hands. Different expressions are for different times. There is a time to worship with solemn reverence, but there is also a time to celebrate God.
I’m not arguing with you. I think liturgy is a beautiful thing. However, I would point out that this statement of yours is exactly what a non-liturgical Christian would say!
J
JustaServant
Guest
If I had remained across the Tiber I think I would have chosen (conservative) Episcopal. I just didn’t want to swim halfway.
The problem is many “non-liturgical” Protestants do not have a proper understanding of the word. First. it’s a Biblical word. Second, it’s a neutral word. Liturgy is neither alive nor dead, it simply is. It requires the power of the Holy Spirit to move the train across the rails, the rails being the liturgy.
I will say this also about Pentecostal worship. It also has a liturgy, you might not call it that, but its a liturgy nonetheless.
J
JustaServant
Guest
I know, I used to say the same thing. Until I realized I was dictating to God what constituted ‘spirit and truth’.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Bold mine. That is the essance of Catholic worship. Our whole bodies in worship.
L
ltwin
Guest
Yes it does. The thing is that our liturgy is unspoken, and it allows for surprises. There are unspoken rubrics for Pentecostal worship. You just have to know whats going on. It looks like chaos, but if you’ve observed a Pentecostal congregation long enough you will see that there is an order amidst the madness.If I had remained across the Tiber I think I would have chosen (conservative) Episcopal. I just didn’t want to swim halfway.
The problem is many “non-liturgical” Protestants do not have a proper understanding of the word. First. it’s a Biblical word. Second, it’s a neutral word. Liturgy is neither alive nor dead, it simply is. It requires the power of the Holy Spirit to move the train across the rails, the rails being the liturgy.
I will say this also about Pentecostal worship. It also has a liturgy, you might not call it that, but its a liturgy nonetheless.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Depends on the church. One charismatic church up in Pittsburgh was very subdued. I would have thought it was a Baptist church.
L
ltwin
Guest
It does depend on the church. Some Pentecostals churches don’t even teach on speaking in tongues anymore, strange.
C
clintj
Guest
The Holy Spirit cannot be blocked by liturgy because the events of the liturgy invite the Holy Spirit work through them. From the beginning we confess our sins and ask forgiveness. We then experience the Holy Spirit through the scripture readings including Psalms and Gospel. The work of Holy Spirit through confession and Scripture prepares us to receive Holy Communion where we as Roman Catholics consume the Body and Blood of Jesus. I, as a convert from Evangelicalism to Roman Catholicism believe the Holy Spirit has taken full measure of me during the Mass. So, you see the if you just look at liturgy as simply a structured worship service you miss an important point. Each part of the service is an invitation to experience the Holy Spirit. If you are simply going through the motions, than it truly is just a beautiful service.
If you do attend a Roman Catholic service, I hope you will pray for the Holy Spirit to speak to you in some way through the parts of the service.
If you do attend a Roman Catholic service, I hope you will pray for the Holy Spirit to speak to you in some way through the parts of the service.
L
ltwin
Guest
I might. In my home town, the Catholic Church is pretty small. I get the impression their aren’t that many practicing Catholics here. However, in my university town I’m sure there is a larger Catholic community. I know that on the university campus there is sometimes a Catholic mass. I also know I charismatic Catholic lady that I sometimes have classes with. She invited me to her parish, but I’ve never had time to go.
C
catholictiger
Guest
ritual is a big part of our lives why shouldn’t it be part of our worship to God?
but not every single thing is ritual there is enough difference in the mass to get something out of every single mass. That is if you discount Christ in the Eucharist.
if you have deep enough of prayer in ritual worship you can keep meaning in worship
i would say keeping to scripture is most important
if the spirit wants to move the spirit is going to have. I believe our worship is scripture based, but we are talking about ritual.
if this is the way you think the spirit works you may have a point, but I suspect we all will think the spirit works in other ways.
L
Luvtosew
Guest
They don’t reject in so much as I think most don’t understand it I think.I have some friends who said they went to a Mass and thought it was nice!
Also they don’t believe communion is what the CC teaches, and I’ve heard also they don’t like Jesus still being on the Cross. Except for converts I think it’ mainly the way one is raised.
Also its very structured. Thank goodness we have different readings and homilies every week.
I think God probably likes variety,
Also they don’t believe communion is what the CC teaches, and I’ve heard also they don’t like Jesus still being on the Cross. Except for converts I think it’ mainly the way one is raised.
Also its very structured. Thank goodness we have different readings and homilies every week.
I think God probably likes variety,
C
catholictiger
Guest
exactly
BXVI has a whole chapter in his book spirit of the liturgy on this.
but again while there is clear ritual in Catholic Worship I think the impact of God on the person in the eucharist, along with the non ritual parts of the liturgy homily readings and such. Keep the meaning in Mass.
there has to be an effort by the person to keep its meaning
N
nickybr38
Guest
I would argue that most Protestant churches have their own form of liturgy.
In one case a woman INTERRUPTED the minister to tell her (yes, it was a female minister) that she should read THIS bible verse RIGHT now… and the female minister, bless her, inexplicably complied.
sigh
I do not miss such services. I enjoy the reverence of the Mass. Everyone knows their place. Everyone seeks God with ORDER…
I have always believed that God brings order, God brings peace… and in those services I would often see chaos and chaos, to me, is not God.
But to our pentecostal poster I would just like to say I never attended a Pentecostal service as lively as the ones you describe so I am not familiar with the order beneath the chaos that you mention. I would warn that not all ‘movements’ of the spirit in such settings are genuine. I have witnessed a man give a prophecy mid service. I witnessed the translation of his prophecy as well… he prophecied the church he was in would grow… within a year it was completely closed down. Clearly his prophecy was not from God. So be careful. Even with a translator these things are not reliable.
PS: Although, to be fair, this last Sunday the organist INTERRUPTED the priest, mid-sentence, to remind him to let the children go. I was so horrified by that. ): We were in the middle of the confiteor… sigh
- Music
- Music
- Sermon
- Prayers
- Music
- Music
- Visiting
In one case a woman INTERRUPTED the minister to tell her (yes, it was a female minister) that she should read THIS bible verse RIGHT now… and the female minister, bless her, inexplicably complied.
sigh
I do not miss such services. I enjoy the reverence of the Mass. Everyone knows their place. Everyone seeks God with ORDER…
I have always believed that God brings order, God brings peace… and in those services I would often see chaos and chaos, to me, is not God.
But to our pentecostal poster I would just like to say I never attended a Pentecostal service as lively as the ones you describe so I am not familiar with the order beneath the chaos that you mention. I would warn that not all ‘movements’ of the spirit in such settings are genuine. I have witnessed a man give a prophecy mid service. I witnessed the translation of his prophecy as well… he prophecied the church he was in would grow… within a year it was completely closed down. Clearly his prophecy was not from God. So be careful. Even with a translator these things are not reliable.
PS: Although, to be fair, this last Sunday the organist INTERRUPTED the priest, mid-sentence, to remind him to let the children go. I was so horrified by that. ): We were in the middle of the confiteor… sigh
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Why do certain Protestant churches (ecclesiastical communities) reject liturgical worship?
Answer: Because they are centuries removed from the origins of Christianity. Jesus and the Apostles taught the Catholic Church both correct doctrine and the proper form for the worship of God, and she has preserved these teachings for 21 centuries, and will persevere until the end of time.
A couple of Protestant ecclesiastical communities have copied Catholic worship forms.
Answer: Because they are centuries removed from the origins of Christianity. Jesus and the Apostles taught the Catholic Church both correct doctrine and the proper form for the worship of God, and she has preserved these teachings for 21 centuries, and will persevere until the end of time.
A couple of Protestant ecclesiastical communities have copied Catholic worship forms.
J
JustaServant
Guest
The person who woke me up to liturgy was actually a CHARISMATIC preacher, he later became a charismatic Episcopal priest.
The illustration of the rails of a train is the best to me.
L
ltwin
Guest
Certainly. Non-liturgical doesn’t mean non-ordered. There has to be some pattern.
My pastor has no problem telling people who are out of order that they are out of order. There is a story about a Pentecostal church. There is a woman who had the habit of always interrupting the new preacher during his sermon to give a message in tongues. After several Sundays of this happening, the new preacher sees her begin to stand up during his sermon and he tells her she can’t give a message right now. The woman says, “But God has told me to give a message.” And the preacher says, “But God has told me to preach the Word, and the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.”
And for the record, I have never been in a service where the preacher was interrupted during the sermon. If someone gives a prophecy or a message, its always been at another time during the service, such as the singing.
I’m a lifelong Pentecostal. Raised in the Pentecostal church, your threshold for what is “normal” and what is “orderly” is quite different from what many would think, I would expect.
Also, I think Pentecostals and others would appeal to Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 14: “When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.”
Certainly. Discernment is key, and clearly there are many Pentecostals/charismatics (in addition to other Christians) who lack not only the gift of discernment but just the common measure of discernment that we all should have when it comes to spiritual things. An open worship style and church service is not an excuse to indulge in error and foolishness, though someone inevitably does something in error and needs to be corrected in love.
- Status