Why do Christians reject the Talmud?

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Rabbi said:
either you celebrate a strong oral tradition which has been passed down for over 3,000 years, or you create your own Talmud
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Jesus did neither. He showed Himself to be the criteria of truth. Jews rejected this truth even if it was expressed by the divine person of the Son of God. That makes Christianity and Judaism irreconcilable. In particular, Talmud makes a host of unjustified statements about Jesus preventing any possible understanding between the two religions.
 
Rabbi said:
I read your response; don’t know why they closed down the thread prematurely.
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Normally, threads close two weeks after the last post.

Some threads, though, seem to start with a 26 hour clock, but sometimes reopen.
Rabbi said:
It is true that Catholicism came before Orthodox Christianity in the East.
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Any distinction between Catholic and Orthodox for the first few centuries AD are artificial. “Catholic” meant (and means) universal, while “Orthodox” means correct belief. The terms to refer to separate groups are a post-schism issue; previously, they were co-extant.

hawk, greatly appreciating the insights from this thread, and wishing he remembered what he wanted to comment upon earlier
 
Funny that you mention it as your question regarding which day Shabbos falls was actually discussed in the Midrash Rabbah 2,000 years ago! Shemot (Exodus) 16 says that the Hebrews were to eat manna six days a week but that on the seventh day, none would fall. This was compensated, however, by a double portion on Fridays. That first Friday, the people were surprised (compared to how little they got on the weekdays), and approached Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) about it. He said that the next day would be Shabbos, and that’s why there were so much manna. Now note that the verse says to “see” that G-d has given us Shabbat; why doesn’t the Torah use the word “know,” the Midrash has the answer. It says:

“This is what G‑d was saying to them: If the idolaters will come to you and ask, ‘Why do you make the Shabbat day on this day?’ you will tell them, ‘See, the manna does not fall on the Shabbat.’"

This went on for the next forty years and we are still counting.

One last note. Rabbi Yehuda Halevi (12th century Chazal), wrote in The Kuzari that it is universally true that humanity pretty much uses a seven day week. He posited that it is a direct resualt if Adam - being he also rested on the seventh day - therefore, another source for knowing when Shabbat falls because it is so important that we keep the brit (covenant) as G-d commanded, eternally.

So what was my point with all this? To show you that we do indeed know when Shabbos falls, and that it can be proven biblically, that it is indeed non Saturday and not Sunday. To my understanding, the reason why the Church chose Sunday was because that was the day Jesus rose, but why did he rise that day (as they believe)? My personal take: he rested on Shabbat! Eh? Get it? I don’t mean any form of mockery by this, but it’s interesting to note!
 
Can I correct you? You are so wrong here, so wrong. I can easily demonstrate that the Talmud Bavli makes not one reference to Jesus, not one, at least not the one in the Gospels. Secondly, it can also be demonstrated that Jesus was a Pharisee who kept our Oral Torah, lest we question what he meant by a Shabbat’s day journey, healing the sick on Shabbat, or claiming that the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat (and it’s obvious to all this wasn’t an actual chair).
 
I have not read this entire thread as yet. Given it is in apologetics I am posting a somewhat historical background , that may be a little simplistic or one we can reflect on to build an answer.

The first important point is that when the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE along with Jerusalem, the Jewish people had no way of worshipping God.
To worship God back then , Pilgrims brought their sacrifices to the Temple and the Priests sacrificed these gifts to the God of Abraham, our common God, Jew and Gentile.
No Temple meant no way to worship God. There could be no sacrifice. (More on this later).

Christians view Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice, the Son of God being the ultimate and final sacrifice , thus He is the Sacrificial lamb.

Back to the Jewish rebellion against Rome and Titus, and internal civil war between zealots and others in the years preceding the destruction of Jerusalem. This was an extremely violent time, most Jewish Christians had left the city. The Jewish people in their thousands were slaughtered and died of starvation during this time of siege. They were basically hemmed in Jerusalem and surrounded by Roman legions attempting to break through the city walls.
A Jewish man , peaceloving, lived in this time. Yohanan Ben Zakkai. He made his escape from the besieged city and headed to Yavneh , where he taught and studied the Hebrew Bible after the destruction.

The Jewish people had a problem, they could now not worship God, with no Temple.
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Yohanan Ben Zakkai drew lay teachers to him, they became known as Rabbis. The Priesthood at that time was without real purpose because the Temple and sacrifice had gone.
Rabbis were lay people, from the surviving ranks of Pharisees and others, who began to teach and reinvent Judaism.
The synagogue became a place of prayer and readings. There was no Temple, so to worship God, Yohanan Ben Zakkai taught Jews were to practice acts of loving kindness, worship God this way, and in works of mercy to those in need. ( very similar to Christian Corporal works of Mercy in some respects).
Judaism began to be rebuilt on prayer and bible study of the Hebrew Bible, their Bible, and the great tradition of debate on its interpretation. Jewish People could now speak to God through prayer. Previously they could only speak to God through the Priests when sacrificing.
The Seder came into being in remembrance of Passover.

Now fast forward to the second century and a man Akiva becomes prominent. Akiva, Jewish, was an illiterate shepherd who got to thinking about how water erodes a stone. He thought if water does this much to a stone, how much more can God penetrate the human heart.

Akiva taught himself to read and write, and became a leading sage. He took the oral traditions of Jewish tradition and law , and organised them into systemized teachings. It is said Akiva had a great legal and brilliant mind.
This became the Talmud. Akiva wrote the basis of the Talmud. Others picked up his work and formalised the Talmud , down through the years.

Akiva was flayed alive by the Romans for being in with Jewish rebels. As Akiva was being flayed, he was praying evening prayer to God.

We must make a distinction here between Torah and Talmud.
 
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Will sacrifice begin again if a third Temple is built, or do the Jewish people now give prayer and acts of mercy primacy?
 
Thank you for that very spirited reply… 🙂

It’s a bit tangential to your OP and my response, but the reason I said the sabbath must have “somehow” been determined to be a Friday in the Old Testament wasn’t because I thought someone just made it up out of the blue, but it was because I really didn’t know.

It proves my point, though. I was speaking of ignorance and misunderstanding in general, but also literally of my ignorance in saying “somehow”. The emphasis you’ll find with Christians is the sabbath on Sunday, so - unless you’re talking to an exegete who’s studied the prefigurations you referred to in Exodus - it’s less likely you would find someone who has delved into the passage so much.

That said, we dont deny what you said is true, so you provided lots of good food for thought. 🙂

As a Catholic - and as just a person who would want to be socially aware and respectful - these are the types of things I enjoy knowing and learning about.

Shalom! 🙂

Wm
 
Indeed Jesus was a deeply devout Jewish man , many considered a prophet. He was deeply influenced by the teachings of the Pharisee Hillel. Hillel taught we are created in the image of God, and promoted a just and moral society.
As to Jesus being a Pharisee, He did study the Hebrew Bible. Was Jesus a Scholar? What is your definition of Pharisee in those days.

Hillel taught if you love God , you cannot have hate for others.
 
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LateranBasilica said:
Indeed Jesus was a deeply devout Jewish man
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Jesus was thoroughly familiar with Judaism. He was also familiar with Buddhism. He tried to infuse some Eastern ideas into Judaism to no avail. His non-violent stance definitely came from Buddhism. Jesus was more like as Essene than a Pharisee. Not the kind of Essene who turned inward and locked themselves out into a compound, but rather the John the Baptist kind of Essene who left the compound and turned outward to people
  • to preach them the coming end,
  • to baptize them and
  • calling them to repent their sins.
 
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Your questions are very interesting. I haven’t studied much of Kabbalah (the tradition is just so huge), but from what I can tell, there are those today who take certain teachings from works such as the Zohar, and place it above Talmudic authority, even after the Gemara was sealed by Rav Ashi (not that there should be contradictions). I had someone once say to me that Rashbi (author of the Zohar) was not able to make legal fences around binding halacha (as demanded in Deuteronomy), but this is incorrect. For one, Rashbi was on the Beit Din HaGadol, he was a student of Rav Akiva, so he certainly could make fences! Regardless, the Zohar isn’t a work of halacha like Rambam’s Mishneh Torah. Third. Can we even pasken from it? Many say no. The Geonim and Rishonim, even as late as Rabbeinu Gershom, thought that one could make “enforced” fences, BUT, if memory serves me right, the leshitasam said that it was simply a daas yachid, or minority opinion. So I guess it’s up to what you believe!

Regarding the Baal Shem Tov and his use of amulets (kameyos), there are, again, many opinions. His apologists will argue that he had the right to do so, but some think it nothing more than your standard avodah Zara and cite the fact that they are frequently referred to as “darchei emori.” Now note that this has been going on since Genoic times, even though some rebuked their usage, such as Rambam, who himself, in spite of what Kabbalists wishfully want to believe, wasn’t a mystic.

Now, from the other side…

The meiseh says that one time after Shabbos, the Baal Shem Tov approached R. Yitzchak of Drohovitch, who had caused a temporary standstill in the amulets’ healing power because he thought it unwise to use the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, on any parchment for one may have anterior motives or use the Name incorrectly, causing damage to himself and others. What was the response? That he never did use the Divine Name, rather, his own, Yisrael Ben Sara. At this, R. Drohovitch asked to see one for himself, and when shown, he relented and asked G-d to grant potency again to the amulets, supposedly surprised that such amulets, without bearing the name of G-d, could cause such healing powers. Lastly, the Talmud says it is permissible for a tzadik to hand a person a coin via his blessing. So it seems that such amulets were fine, at least with Kabbalah Ma’asit.

But personally, I’m not sure what to believe, I guess the latter view, as we go by the majority consensus, or klal yisrael, and since his memory hasn’t been tainted, per se, we should follow it. But that is my personal view, and I know many would derail me as leaving Torah for esoteric approaches.
 
It’s gettig late from where I’m from - too late! - but I’d like to present my case tomorrow why the Essenes were actually Pharisees.

The notion that Jesus got his teaching from Buddhism has been debunked before. We should just accept that both men were great spiritual leaders and thought up similar ideas. One didn’t have to necessarily copy the other.
 
You are right Hillel. The Hebrew word for Pharisee doesn’t mean hypocrite, it means interpreter. Nothing wrong with that, righty? In fact, the Hebrew word for judges is shoftim, and that means the same as rabbi so one could easily substitute “rabbi” in all those passages in Tanakh, and therefore, it would have been harder for modern critics to assume Rabbinic Judaism was a second century invention. Interesting, no doubt.
 
You know a lot of Jewish history and conveyed it nicely! Mazal Tov! It is noteworthy that some scholars believe Akiva’s Mishnah inspired Yehudah Ha-nasi.

Yes, Ezekiel chapters 40 till the end of the book make lots of use of animal sacrifice being reinstalled- and not for mere memorial purposes - as the Messiah will offer sacrifices for himself and the people. At least this is the Jewish reading of the text.

One last thing of note. Have you read Hosea chapter 14? I believe the first two verses, if I’m not mistaken, niey convey the notion that when the Temple is no longer standing, we’re to substitute prayer of our lips for bull sacrifices. Hosea earlier mentions that this will resualt in the Temple’s destruction, in which the Jewish people will be exiled from their land and exist without a king, until the end of days. This is very interesting, and please forgive me, something most Christians miss when they ask us how we atone for sin without a Temple.
 
Nicely put regarding the controversy behind Jesus in the Talmud. Again, personally, I find him absent in Talmud, but I guess we will never know for sure as long as we never look at the original text and prove it for ourselves. From such a study Inhave concluded that the Jesus of the Gospel isn’t in Talmud Bavli, for example, the code-name “Baal” doesn’t make any sense.
 
I am sorry for any misspells or mishaps, my IPhone has a mind of its own!
 
Rabbi said:
Lastly and most importantly, the Messiah is to bring a lasting world peace. A short time after Jesus’ death, the Jewish world was in ruin. In came the Romans in 70 CE, and guess what? They burnt the Holy of Holies, and the Jewish nation was dispersed across the globe. This, my friend, doesn’t sound like the world peace promised in Tanakh, and on that basis alone, do we reject him as Messiah and son of G-d. Yes, we wished he had succeeded, but we failed to take him seriously when it mattered most, and the Romans put him to death as a traitor to the empire and claimed king of Israel.
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Hi Rabbi! Nice to see you here!

I just wanted to comment on this and say that Christians also believe that when Messiah comes he will usher in world peace. However Christians believe in 2 separate comings of the same Messiah. We believe that Jesus first came as the Suffering Messiah in order to die as the atonement for our sins. We believe he fulfilled the role as portrayed in Isaiah 53 about the Suffering Servant where it says that He was pierced for our iniquities and that God laid on Him the guilt of us all. (We wouldn’t believe that Israel itself is that suffering servant referred to in Isaiah.)

We would also believe that Psalm 22 is a picture of the crucified Messiah, and Jesus himself, when he was on the cross, quoted from this psalm.

Christians look forward to his 2nd coming when we believe he will accomplish the things that you have mentioned.

Shalom b’HaShem Adonai.

p.s. It’s early where I am–I just got up. Have a good night’s sleep. 🙂
 
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I would disagree about the Essenes. They believed that they would go to war and herald in the Messiah by their valiant efforts. They lived a more pure life then they believed the rest of the Jews were living, and called themselves sons of light, everyone else, including other Jews who did not live as devoutly , were called sons of darkness, by the Essenes.
The people of Judah , the Israelites, were well know for their fighting prowess. They were mercenaries and quite fierce in war. The Essenes were part of these people and were all slaughtered in 70CE and beyond, when they went on to fight Titus and Vespasian. Rome had to bring in a General from Briton in preparation to defeat the Jews, and 13 Roman legions. Granted the Romans were not happy that the Jews had routed the Roman legions previously in this revolt.
The Essenes did not agree with the Priests , especially the High Priest, selling out to the Romans (as they put it), they withdrew from society for that reason.

Jesus was familiar with Judaism because, quite simply, Jesus was a Jew.
Do you have supporting evidence for the Buddhism hypothesis?
 
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This parting of the ways is rooted , to some extent with St John Chrysostom.early Christians were finding the Jewish feasts and festivals more enticing then the Christian ones. St John Chrysostom wrote a series of homilies, or letters, about this, I believe.
He is credited for the beginning of the strong feeling the church had about the Jews as being responsible fr the death of Christ, until Vatican II.
 
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