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meltzerboy2
Guest
I think an equally good question, if not better, is why do some Jews reject the Talmud? I have no immediate answers to either question.
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LateranBasilica
Guest
Oh thankyou, I must read this. I see Akiva as a true martyr and sainted man.
It also goes without saying that the 10 Commandments of God, given to Moses are the bedrock of the Christian Faith, and indeed , Western Society Law.
It also goes without saying that the 10 Commandments of God, given to Moses are the bedrock of the Christian Faith, and indeed , Western Society Law.
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Gab123
Guest
That’s like asking why do Jews reject the Quran. The Talmud was written by people who rejected Jesus Christ.
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Rabbi
Guest
The Mishnah, on which the Talmud is based on, existed long before Jesus. We have archeological evidence for this, as well as testimony AND biblical evidence. Jesus himself knew the Oral Law well and would have been shocked to think they’d be people 2,000 years from now pondering how he kept Shabbos.
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Rabbi
Guest
I have a big interest in Akiva also, he’s perhaps the central character of the Talmud if we’d playfully read it as a novel, haha!
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Rabbi
Guest
It is sad that John Chrysostom attacked the Jews of his age as being responsible for the death of Jesus. He must have somehow forgotten that Jesus himself was Jewish and had many Jewish followers, and that Pilate was a vicious man who had to be recalled back to Rome for his brutality. Sadly, this man’s one mistake caused rampant anti-Semitism and death throughout the ancient world and beyond. I am glad of Vatican II, that council was blessed by G-d.
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Rabbi
Guest
Wow! You really know your history! I’m surprised because many in today’s age don’t care for history, they’d rather explore sex or drugs or what have you.
You are really special, keep up the good work.
You are really special, keep up the good work.
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Rabbi
Guest
That’s very interesting that you point this out. I would just add that we know exactly when the modern Karaite movement began, it began with the death of the current exilarch in, I think, 760
CE. Two nephews could have been chosen, but Anan ben David was unlucky, and the Geonim and Caliph Baghdad rejected ben David’s appeal, who later took on the title exilarch by his own followers. This was seen as a revolt by the Muslim authorities and they locked him up. While in prison awaiting death, he spoke with a follower of the Hanifites, Abu Hanifah al-Nu’man ibn Thabit. He too was a haeretic, but he thought ben David all the ropes to defend his case against the rabbis and he surprisingly pulled it off! Anan ben David explained to the Caliph that he had his means of interpreting ambiguous texts in the Bible and was set free.
So these Karaites ended up with their own oral interpretations and they even disagree on many issues because they don’t have our mesorah. Every Jew who ever left the fold of Rabbinic Judaism no longer identifies as Jewish! I wonder why? G-d hasn’t preserved them after they walked away from our oral traditions.
Now contrast this to Rabbinic Judaism. They have trouble placing its origins, some say First Temple, others Second Temple. As an Orthodox Jew myself, I posit none of those are correct. That we indeed have a faithful tradition spanning all the way back from Moshe Rabbeinu.
I once actually spoke with a Karaite for a while, then one of his leaders. They couldn’t answer my honest questions about where we learn to keep Shabbos, how to do brit milah, etc. They don’t have answers, they are a breakaway sect which clearly is on the wrong path.
CE. Two nephews could have been chosen, but Anan ben David was unlucky, and the Geonim and Caliph Baghdad rejected ben David’s appeal, who later took on the title exilarch by his own followers. This was seen as a revolt by the Muslim authorities and they locked him up. While in prison awaiting death, he spoke with a follower of the Hanifites, Abu Hanifah al-Nu’man ibn Thabit. He too was a haeretic, but he thought ben David all the ropes to defend his case against the rabbis and he surprisingly pulled it off! Anan ben David explained to the Caliph that he had his means of interpreting ambiguous texts in the Bible and was set free.
So these Karaites ended up with their own oral interpretations and they even disagree on many issues because they don’t have our mesorah. Every Jew who ever left the fold of Rabbinic Judaism no longer identifies as Jewish! I wonder why? G-d hasn’t preserved them after they walked away from our oral traditions.
Now contrast this to Rabbinic Judaism. They have trouble placing its origins, some say First Temple, others Second Temple. As an Orthodox Jew myself, I posit none of those are correct. That we indeed have a faithful tradition spanning all the way back from Moshe Rabbeinu.
I once actually spoke with a Karaite for a while, then one of his leaders. They couldn’t answer my honest questions about where we learn to keep Shabbos, how to do brit milah, etc. They don’t have answers, they are a breakaway sect which clearly is on the wrong path.
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Gab123
Guest
If you read the gospels, Pilate wanted to save Jesus from crucifixion; it was the religious authorities who demanded his death. But it was Jesus who allowed Himself to be crucified; the circumstances were necessary in order for God’s Divine Plan for salvation to unfold and Lamb of God to be sacrificed. Read the gospels; Pilate was brutal but he attempted to wash his hands of the whole affair.
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Rabbi
Guest
Pilate’s washing of the hands was a Jewish custom, not a Roman one. Besides, if Jesus wanted death in order to atone for the world’s sins, why then did Christians, and some sill do, blame Jews? Why did Hitler’s Nazis say the Jews killed G-d and deserved death? I think the underpinnings is pure anti-Semitism, and these evil men have used the Gospel story, and exploited it.
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Gab123
Guest
Yes, Pilate was speaking in a language the public would understand showing the religious authorities what he thought of the innocence of Jesus by washing his hands of the matter; a language they clearly understood.Pilate’s washing of the hands was a Jewish custom, not a Roman one.
It is the gospels that say that the religious authorities were responsible for his death, but as Jesus clearly stated, they knew not what they were doing; this was in order to fulfill the prophecy of the suffering messiah. People often do not realize that what they are doing is evil.if Jesus wanted death in order to atone for the world’s sins, why then did Christians, and some sill do, blame Jews?
Yes you hit the nail on the head. Those evil men exploited the gospels.Why did Hitler’s Nazis say the Jews killed G-d and deserved death? I think the underpinnings is pure anti-Semitism, and these evil men have used the Gospel story, and exploited it.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Are you saying the Karaites of today do not consider themselves Jewish? I was referring mainly to the Karaite Jews in my previous post, but also the Reform and Reconstructionist movements in Judaism, as well as others, reject much (not all) of the Talmud as the Oral Torah inspired by Gd. Nonetheless, they still regard themselves as Jewish, and some fervently so.
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Rabbi
Guest
Thank you for the kind words. From the Jewish standpoint - and this is just our opinion - Isaiah 53, when looked in context, is really talking about the Jewish people, after all, the last three servant songs indicated that Jacob (i.e., Israel) was indeed the servant. Now, how can Israel save Israel? Good question. The prophet Zephaniah answers that in 3:13 when he said that the “remnant pious of Israel” would save the rest of Israel.
Regarding Psalm 22, I would just quickly note that in context, the psalm is about David’s enemies and pleading to G-d for help. All throughout Psalm 22, David refers to his enemies as lions, it’s a great motif, and if one glances through the Dead Sea Scrolls, he or she will indeed find that the word for “pierced” isn’t there, but “like a lion” - kaari (כָּאֲרִי). In fact, David could have implemented two common Hebrew words for piecing, daqar or ratza, but he didn’t. Instead, Christians play with the invented Hebrew word kaaru, which they say exists in fragment 5/6HevPs, which was discovered in the cave at Nahal Hever, just 30 km south of Qumran (the fragment is older than the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were penned around 66 CE). This is done by modifying the yod to a vav by failing to add a vertical descending line which would make it a yod.
However, this is false. I am a Hebrew speaker as well as English, and if you don’t believe me, just go to Israel and ask them there because there is no such word as Kaaru, it just doesn’t exist. In fact, subsisting kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), yod (י) (“like a lion”) into kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), and vav (ו) does not make “pierced,” but pure gibberish. A better argument would have been to drop the alef to make the Hewbre word “karu” (כָּרוּ), which means to “excavate” or “dig.” For example, we find the word karu used in the KJV’s Psalm 40:7, when David says “My ears you have open,” which is כָּרִיתָ, the same root word for כארו, just without the aleph א. This word again means to dig, and not stab, otherwise, David would have been stabbing his ears to hear his G-d!
Now the anonymous scribe of fragment 5/6HevPs was a bad speller, the next word is “my hands.” In Psalm 22:17, the Hebrew there is ידי (yadai). The scribe’s mistake was placing the extra letter ה (hey) at the end. So it reads as ידיה instead of correctly as ידי. This Hebrew word ידיה (yadehah) means “her hands,” and not “my hands.” See? It was nothing more than a few speeding mishaps.
Now further note that the KJV faithfully translated Kaari perfectly elsewhere (see for example Isaiah 38:13), so why did they play with Psalm 22:17? Perhaps the answer is that if you supplement “pierced” for “like a lion,” and view the verse out of context, it does kind of sound like crucifixion.
Just one last thing: if Psalm 22:17 was so important and pointed directly to Jesus, how come it was never quoted by the New Testament itself? I do not lie to you, the actual verse is never quoted! Interesting, they must have not felt it important enough.
But I don’t mean to be disingenuous, the only reason I took the time to write this all out is to show you the Jewish understanding behind Psalm 22:17 and where it comes from.
Regarding Psalm 22, I would just quickly note that in context, the psalm is about David’s enemies and pleading to G-d for help. All throughout Psalm 22, David refers to his enemies as lions, it’s a great motif, and if one glances through the Dead Sea Scrolls, he or she will indeed find that the word for “pierced” isn’t there, but “like a lion” - kaari (כָּאֲרִי). In fact, David could have implemented two common Hebrew words for piecing, daqar or ratza, but he didn’t. Instead, Christians play with the invented Hebrew word kaaru, which they say exists in fragment 5/6HevPs, which was discovered in the cave at Nahal Hever, just 30 km south of Qumran (the fragment is older than the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were penned around 66 CE). This is done by modifying the yod to a vav by failing to add a vertical descending line which would make it a yod.
However, this is false. I am a Hebrew speaker as well as English, and if you don’t believe me, just go to Israel and ask them there because there is no such word as Kaaru, it just doesn’t exist. In fact, subsisting kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), yod (י) (“like a lion”) into kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), and vav (ו) does not make “pierced,” but pure gibberish. A better argument would have been to drop the alef to make the Hewbre word “karu” (כָּרוּ), which means to “excavate” or “dig.” For example, we find the word karu used in the KJV’s Psalm 40:7, when David says “My ears you have open,” which is כָּרִיתָ, the same root word for כארו, just without the aleph א. This word again means to dig, and not stab, otherwise, David would have been stabbing his ears to hear his G-d!
Now the anonymous scribe of fragment 5/6HevPs was a bad speller, the next word is “my hands.” In Psalm 22:17, the Hebrew there is ידי (yadai). The scribe’s mistake was placing the extra letter ה (hey) at the end. So it reads as ידיה instead of correctly as ידי. This Hebrew word ידיה (yadehah) means “her hands,” and not “my hands.” See? It was nothing more than a few speeding mishaps.
Now further note that the KJV faithfully translated Kaari perfectly elsewhere (see for example Isaiah 38:13), so why did they play with Psalm 22:17? Perhaps the answer is that if you supplement “pierced” for “like a lion,” and view the verse out of context, it does kind of sound like crucifixion.
Just one last thing: if Psalm 22:17 was so important and pointed directly to Jesus, how come it was never quoted by the New Testament itself? I do not lie to you, the actual verse is never quoted! Interesting, they must have not felt it important enough.
But I don’t mean to be disingenuous, the only reason I took the time to write this all out is to show you the Jewish understanding behind Psalm 22:17 and where it comes from.
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Gab123
Guest
Jesus quoted Psalm 22 when He was hanging on the cross. The Psalm begins: “ My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? —Those who knew the Scriptures knew exactly what he was referring to.T if Psalm 22:17 was so important and pointed directly to Jesus, how come it was never quoted by the New Testament itself? I do not lie to you, the actual verse is never quoted! Interesting, they must have not felt it important enough.
Here’s a brief explanation of Isaiah 53 by Jewish Israelis, who explain the chapter from the perspective of Jews who came to believe in the gospels:Isaiah 53, when looked in context, is really talking about the Jewish people
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BartholomewB
Guest
The Biblical judges included at least one woman, Deborah. Can this be legitimately cited as a precedent for allowing women rabbis?In fact, the Hebrew word for judges is shoftim, and that means the same as rabbi so one could easily substitute “rabbi” in all those passages in Tanakh, and therefore, it would have been harder for modern critics to assume Rabbinic Judaism was a second century invention. Interesting, no doubt.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I agree there are messianic overtones to Isaiah 53. However, messianic overtones mean that Israel will eventually be redeemed by Gd and its suffering will end. This is not a passage that specifies a Redeemer per se but only the fact that in the messianic age at the end of time, Israel will at last be regarded by other nations as the rightful priest whose mission is the spread of the Word of Gd. In other words, other nations will finally recognize that the Gd of Israel is the Gd of the universe. Thus the “suffering servant,” as evidenced so often by the context of Isaiah 52, which precedes the passage in question, and Isaiah 54, which follows, as well as verses in other books (both explicit and implicit), is the nation of Israel, which will one day be redeemed for its long-lasting suffering. So far, however, it has NOT been redeemed since the world does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, let alone the Gd of Israel as the Gd of all mankind. Note too that this redemption of the nation of Israel is a collective one, not an individual one.
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Gab123
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks about the eventual conversion of all of Israel in finally recognizing Jesus as the one and only messiah, a recognition which will happen right before the Return of Christ at the end of the world. Here is entry #674 from the Catechism:So far, however, it has NOT been redeemed since the world does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, let alone the Gd of Israel as the Gd of all mankind. Note too that this redemption of the nation of Israel is a collective one, not an individual one.
_674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.”
St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”._
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BartholomewB
Guest
“… And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These words spoken by God to Moses in Ex 19:6 are echoed in the NT in 1 Peter 2:9, when Peter tells his Christian readers, “You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”Israel will at last be regarded by other nations as the rightful priest whose mission is the spread of the Word of Gd. In other words, other nations will finally recognize that the Gd of Israel is the Gd of the universe.
In both cases, the standard Catholic interpretation, I believe, is that Israel (in Exodus) or the Church (in 1 Peter) stands in relation to the rest of the world as a priest stands in relation to the laity, interceding with God on their behalf. That view is not shared, however, by certain Protestants – Calvinists, I think, though I’m not sure about that – who quote Peter’s words as meaning that all Christians are priests, from which they go on to deduce that the Catholic Church is wrong to have an ordained priesthood, set apart from the laity.
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Le_Crouton
Guest
Why do Jews reject Jesus?
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Rabbi
Guest
I will review this all in proper time and respond. I hope they keep the link open as I have to keep Shabbos. Thank you all for the great (name removed by moderator)ut. I really enjoy this and look forward to learning more.