Why do fundamentalists believe the world is 6000-10000 years old?

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Quote Cassini:
but it fails to mention the experiment conducted by SCIENCE to try to break the deadlock, that is the AIRY EXPERIMENT (1871) . And do you know why this is never mentioned? Well SURPRISE, SURPRISE, it found that it is the stars that move relative to the earth if stellar aberration is taken to be proof of anything.

The Airy experiment found no such thing. It was in fact an attempt to measure the effect of the aether on aberration, and to measure the degree to which the aether is dragged by the earth. The results of the experiment confirmed the phenomenon as I have described it above, but failed to find any evidence of aether whether dragged ort not, a null result for the aether that has been confirmed in countless experiments since then.

I think that your misleading statements about stellar aberration represent propaganda, if anything does.
Alec
Alec, are you mixing the A test with the M&M test?

1870-1: The Airy Failure

Boscovich’s Tiebreaker


**In 1730 Fr Boscovich suggested a logical conclusive trial that would, he expected, put the heliocentric theory on a more certain footing, a simple experiment that could, he believed, confirm or verify that it was the earth doing the moving.
To understand the experiment let us go back to the analogy of a man with an umbrella in the rain. In rain, we know that if a man moves and wants to keep dry he has to allow for his velocity and that of the rain by tilting his umbrella.

Similarly, if two men with umbrellas start to run a race, both have to tilt their umbrellas But if one man runs faster (V) than the other (v) the faster man will have to tilt his umbrella more than the slower running man.

Let us again swap a man for the earth and a telescope with an umbrella. Unlike the one man tilted umbrella analogy, which can be interpreted either geocentrically or heliocentrically, the above two-man, two-umbrella illustration can only be interpreted heliocentrically because to interpret it geocentrically the clouds would have to be travelling at two speeds which is impossible.
Fr Boscovich reasoned correctly that if one could conduct an experiment like Bradley’s stellar aberration test with two earths and two telescopes travelling at different speeds and one of them had to be tilted more than the other, this would, like the two different tilted umbrellas, prove it is the earth that moves and not the stars. So, how does one conduct an experiment that has two earths, one going faster than the other relative to the stars? Well easy, if you follow the logic. You do it with two similar telescopes but fill one with water. This slows down the starlight passing through it (13% slower). The other air-filled telescope will allow the same starlight to pass through at normal speed. By slowing the light passing through one of two similar telescopes pointed at the same star and leaving the other as normal, you in effect set up the two-speed earth scenario.

O.K., what then? Well, as the faster man would have to tilt his umbrella more than the slower man, the faster earth, the one with the air-filled telescope, would have to be tilted more than the slower earth, the water-filled telescope. If, like the men, in the experiment one telescope has to be tilted more than the other to allow for the extra speed, then we can deduct that the telescopes, like the men, must be moving, thus showing the earth moves.

According to the yarns of history, it took ‘objective scientists’ of the time 84 years after Boscovich’s death before anyone bothered to try this experiment. ( G. B. Airy: ‘On the supposed alteration of the amount of Astronomical Aberration of light, produced by the passage of light through a considerable thickness of Refracting Medium.’ Proceedings of the Royal Society, London, 1870, pp. 35-39.) They tell us that only when discoveries in electromagnetism required a logically solid demonstration of aberration, did they feel the need to do the test. The Astronomer Royal, Sir George Airy (1802-1892) took this bold step in 1871 and gave Boscovich’s experiment a try. The results showed the reason why all these ‘great’ pioneers in astronomy evaded the experiment for 100 years, although, I’ll wager, it was conducted many times in private and the results hidden by the Earthmovers to allow heliocentricism another hundred years to become entrenched into the psyche of man.
As you may have anticipated by now, the angles of both telescopes tracking starlight remained the same. This meant that if the earth moves relative to stars, then it moves at TWO speeds, which is ridiculous. The only logical, empirical, scientific interpretation of the test result then is that it is the starlight that moves, not the earth.

Here then was George Airy, in 1870-1, after a simple, logical and physically valid and decisive test that nobody can dispute, demonstrating that stellar aberration - rather than providing ‘proof’ for a moving earth, shows that the earth stands firm.

Such a logical interpretation of the Airy test was of course unacceptable to the triumphant Copernicans. Accordingly, every possible excuse as to why the Airy test gave a ‘negative’ result has been proposed. One of these excuses was that of ‘ether-drag’, a not impossible theory that moving bodies in space, in this case the earth, drag with them some invisible and static ether - if ether exists that is. Experiments done in 1818 by the French physicist Augustin Fresnel (1788-1827) suggest¬ed this might be so, but as often happens in this field of science, in 1887 an important experiment cast doubt on this possibility.**
 
Ed,

I disagree with this statement. The Church holds the fullness of Truth in terms of Faith and Morals, not science. Christ came to save sinners, not to discuss scientific findings, and that is the business of the Church. Yes, the Church does have a responsibility to make sure the findings of science are used in accord with the Gospel, but it is not there to make scientific discoveries. Yes, I know there has been and continues to be many a great member of the Church who is involved in science and has contributed greatly to it, but this is not the Church as a whole, this is a member of the Church. We should be obedient to Church teaching, but evolution is in no way against the faith. What we do need to be combating is the dangerous and false philosophies that are claiming science as their basis. Scientism is indeed quite dangerous and must be combated, but not science. Science should be embraced.

In Christ,

Dave
There are no areas where Revelation and science intersect?
 
There are no areas where Revelation and science intersect?
There certainly are. Truth is Truth. What we are talking about here is evolution which is not contrary to the Faith. There are absolutely no scientific findings that are contrary to the faith, they can’t be, they have there origin in the same God. What we need to combat is scientism, not genuine scientific findings. Genuine science has no say on matters of faith and or morals. The only genuine problem I see currently between Science and Religion is the issue of Polygenism and Original sin as discussed by Pope Paul VI because he could not see how the two could be reconciled, but thats a whole different topic…
 
There certainly are. Truth is Truth. What we are talking about here is evolution which is not contrary to the Faith. There are absolutely no scientific findings that are contrary to the faith, they can’t be, they have there origin in the same God. What we need to combat is scientism, not genuine scientific findings. Genuine science has no say on matters of faith and or morals. The only genuine problem I see currently between Science and Religion is the issue of Polygenism and Original sin as discussed by Pope Paul VI because he could not see how the two could be reconciled, but thats a whole different topic…
Why do you trust science so much?

hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MCGBEN.html

The work of men is subject to corruption and distortion. And there are scientists who deny God and use what they call decided science as evidence. There is a real battle going on for the hearts and minds of the people. Genuine science is trying, right now, to convince people they are nothing more than animals and almost anything goes.

Peace,
Ed
 
There certainly are. Truth is Truth. What we are talking about here is evolution which is not contrary to the Faith. There are absolutely no scientific findings that are contrary to the faith, they can’t be, they have there origin in the same God. What we need to combat is scientism, not genuine scientific findings. Genuine science has no say on matters of faith and or morals. The only genuine problem I see currently between Science and Religion is the issue of Polygenism and Original sin as discussed by Pope Paul VI because he could not see how the two could be reconciled, but thats a whole different topic…
Agreed - scientism is the issue. Man’s reasoning his observations is fallible.
 
Why do you trust science so much?

hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MCGBEN.html

The work of men is subject to corruption and distortion. And there are scientists who deny God and use what they call decided science as evidence. There is a real battle going on for the hearts and minds of the people. Genuine science is trying, right now, to convince people they are nothing more than animals and almost anything goes.

Peace,
Ed
You exhibit an inordinate distrust of science. Furthermore, you lack the ability or willingness to distinguish genuine science from ideology. Perhaps this is so because your own position of “creationism” is in itself an ideology.

**Newsflash for creationists: Evolution is God’s way of using upgrades! **😛
 
You exhibit an inordinate distrust of science. Furthermore, you lack the ability or willingness to distinguish genuine science from ideology. Perhaps this is so because your own position of “creationism” is in itself an ideology.

**Newsflash for creationists: Evolution is God’s way of using upgrades! **😛
I definitely agree with that.👍
 
You exhibit an inordinate distrust of science. Furthermore, you lack the ability or willingness to distinguish genuine science from ideology. Perhaps this is so because your own position of “creationism” is in itself an ideology.

**Newsflash for creationists: Evolution is God’s way of using upgrades! **😛

Is this why there is a ban?
 
I have just got to ask a question. I haven’t been on this forum for long but it seems that there are a lot of people who refuse to believe anything related to science. Why? What is so threatening about it? Do things like evolution disturb some of these people because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived notion of God? We can’t deny scientific truths!!! We rely on them everyday, are we going to mistrust everything? There is a huge difference between science and ideology. All truth has its origin in the one God. Not only can science and religion work together, they must!!!
 
You exhibit an inordinate distrust of science. Furthermore, you lack the ability or willingness to distinguish genuine science from ideology. Perhaps this is so because your own position of “creationism” is in itself an ideology.

**Newsflash for creationists: Evolution is God’s way of using upgrades! **😛

Is this why there is a ban?

Dunno anything about the reason for the ban. Usually, or unusually, such bans occur when posters too often get uncharitable in their responses.
 
I have just got to ask a question. I haven’t been on this forum for long but it seems that there are a lot of people who refuse to believe anything related to science. Why? What is so threatening about it? Do things like evolution disturb some of these people because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived notion of God? We can’t deny scientific truths!!! We rely on them everyday, are we going to mistrust everything? There is a huge difference between science and ideology. All truth has its origin in the one God. Not only can science and religion work together, they must!!!
Except for your penultimate sentence, you are right. Your conclusion is absolutely correct. However, there are some fundamental beliefs which are commonly held by Abrahamic religions and definitely held by the Catholic Church, which are in direct contradiction with fundamental laws of physics.

Forget Darwinism— that’s just another religion, whose existence is a symptom of a greater problem. The fundamental contradictions are not surmountable without a major paradigm shift on the parts of both religion and science, and that’s not going to happen.
 
Except for your penultimate sentence, you are right. Your conclusion is absolutely correct. However, there are some fundamental beliefs which are commonly held by Abrahamic religions and definitely held by the Catholic Church, which are in direct contradiction with fundamental laws of physics.

Forget Darwinism— that’s just another religion, whose existence is a symptom of a greater problem. The fundamental contradictions are not surmountable without a major paradigm shift on the parts of both religion and science, and that’s not going to happen.
What is it that you are not saying? You have only made a vague allusion to who knows what…
 
Oh Albert, you guys never give up PROVING geocentricism is impossible even though it is what you SEE ALL YOUR LIVES. Now if you SEE it maybe it could be TRUE. Now a word of advice. It is now an ESTABLISHED FACT that relativity prevails and thus science cannot prove or disprove G or H. So why do you guys keep trying to DISPROVE G? By all means you can try to defend why you PREFER H, and that is as far as you can go. I have already given EVIDENCE from TWO men whose profession it is to send probes into space. Both testified that this is done geocentrically.

Here I go again. A THEORY of gravity has been invented by Newton for heliocentric. This is the gravity you guys keep regurgitating to me as ANOTHER proof that G is impossible. You ask: 'by what mechanism do the planets orbit the “earth”? I already told you its the sun with its orbiting planets that orbit the earth. So, do you want my theory, as surely you do not think I know what mechanism causes the movements of cosmic bodies and the firmament itself carrying the stars along? What if I said, just as God created the universe and put an angel in charge of every star as some of the Fathers held, would you prove me wrong there too? If however, he used secondary causes my theory would by electromagnetism, caused by a gyroscope universe moving around the central body EARTH causing every other body in the cosmos to move as they do.

As regards Kepler’s ‘Laws’. Here again you show me that you Copernicans are INCAPABLE of understanding the G position. Your PREJUDICE has poisoned your brain so much you just cannot see it. NOBODY disputes the FACT that the planets orbit the SUN according to Kepler’s THIRD LAW.

If you want another theory I prepared this for you Copernicans but it will follow on next post for not enough room here:
Oh yeah your cut and paste job from the “Geocentricism support group.”.

When probes goto other planets and return to earth the calculations are carried out with the earth orbiting the sun.

"When the spacecraft falls back from the Martian orbit, it will enter an elliptical transfer orbit that will encompass pi radians (half an orbit) so that it is **tangential to both the terrestrial and Martian orbits. **

**As the Earth moves around the Sun faster than Mars **(its angular velocity is nearly double that of Mars, Mars must be advanced with respect to Earth to allow the Earth to intercept the slower spacecraft."

http://library.thinkquest.org/12145/emreturn.gif

I love your theory on by what mechanisms the sun orbits the earth… “God did it”!!! Only one small problem… The motion of our earth orbiting the sun due to gravity fits PERFECTLY, and guess what we know that our calculations regarding gravity are SPOT ON. How? Well we have empirical evidence in the form of every object we have ever put into orbit round a solar body. Yep we can work out orbits based on different masses, and GUESS WHAT??? We always get it right!!! Wow go figure, eh?

So how by your theory how do you explain the fact that the massive gravitational pull of the sun is MISSING??? Well actually is not missing, it effects every planet, apart from earth! lol :o

You also did not answer my question, why is it we NEVER see mars in between the earth and the sun? Based on your system we should.
 
Good post Albert. Having to argue for an heliocentric system in the 21st century is…is just wrong!
 
Good post Albert. Having to argue for an heliocentric system in the 21st century is…is just wrong!
I know, its just crazy to think there are people that actually still believe that sun orbits the earth. :confused:
 
I know, its just crazy to think there are people that actually still believe that sun orbits the earth. :confused:
I just can’t bring myself to debate that one. Glad you are able to.

Incredibly, there are still Flat Earther’s around, and obviously many people who still believe the world is only 6-10 thousand years old.

I’ll refrain from say anything about living fossils. 😛
 
Ah - you mistake what being a scientist means, particularly before the 20th century. It doesn’t mean having a degree. It means doing science, and Darwin did great science in a number of fields, a fact that was recognised in his day by the professional scientific institutions (Fellow of the Royal Society, Member of the Council of the Geological Society, Fellow of the Linnean Society, winner of the Royal medal of the Royal Society, winner of the Wollaston medal of the Geological Society, their highest award for contributions to geology, and winner of the Copley Medal, the Royal Society’s highest award for scientific achievement - as the citation says: “For his important researches in geology, zoology, and botanical physiology”).

By the way, his degree was not in theology, but he received a BA from Cambridge which was a general degree that included classics, philosophy, mathematics and astronomy. It was not possible in the 1830s Britain to get a degree in biology or geology, but amongst other courses, Darwin took Adam Sedgwick’s course in geology at Cambridge.
There - now you know what being a scientist is, and perhaps you won’t make that mistake again.
I beg your pardon. I wasn’t questioning what makes a scientist…I questioned your and others titles of being a biologist…etc

I’m a NASA StarChild and I won the prestigious Pioneer X plague from SETI…would you claim me as an astrophysicists?

IMHO, Master Darwin, was a Naturalist and part time Taxidermist. Who self admittedly made many mistakes and was a poor student.

His theories oft-times borrowed from others i.e, Erasmus Darwin, the true evo theorist ]
In the third week of January 1831 Charles sat his final exam. There were three days of written papers covering the Classics, the two Paley texts and John Locke’s An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, then mathematics and physics. At the end of the week when the results were posted he was dazed and proud to have come 10th out of a pass list of 178 doing the ordinary degree. Charles shone in theology and scraped through in the other subjects. He was also exhausted and depressed, writing to Fox “I do not know why the degree should make one so miserable.”[32]
As always, just my thoughts

.
 
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