Why do I sometimes get called a "fundamentalist" when I say that Jesus will return to judge the world?

[Amandil]

I’m fine with this. There’s nothing wrong here. But the op is trying to actually apply Revelation and it’s subjects to current nations and people. This is impossible.

If that’s what he’s doing it does seem at least to be rather imprudent. For the same reasons why it is foolish for so many in protestant circles to tie current individuals or events to prophecies in Scripture, it seems an attempt by him and/or them to predict the future.

If that’s what he’s doing, not only is it impossible to accurately correlate the two, one could say that it borders on a form of idolatry by trying to place themselves on par with God. To attempt to know the future is an attempt to control it.

Not saying that’s what he’s consciously trying to do, but that’s the danger.

When the disciples tried to glean the future from Christ as to who would be saved, Jesus refused to answer, He simply said, “strive to enter”, meaning, “mind your own affairs.”

Again, that’s not suggesting that that is what he’s doing. Only that if that is what he is doing, its something that he shouldn’t.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Catholics are free to form opinions on things as they choose, as long as those things do not contradict Catholic doctrine/teachings made formal. Miracles, however should be approved by the Papacy as authentic before we put any faith into them as being supernatural… But our conscience does indeed play a part in our personal faith.

It’s not that he’s not allowed to do it, it’s that it is impossible to know. Scott Hahn in ‘The Lamb’s Supper’ talked about how he wasted so much time (he and other Protestant ministers) trying to decipher Revelation, when the clearest meaning was in the Mass the whole time (he wasn’t catholic at the time).

It is a fruitless endeavor, and it is presumptuous to think an individual can interpret Holy Scripture in that way, when generations before have failed over and over. Even if he does figure it out, he won’t know if he’s right until Jesus literally comes. There’s no other way of knowing these things for sure, and there’s no point in trying.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

If that’s what he’s doing it does seem at least to be rather imprudent. For the same reasons why it is foolish for so many in protestant circles to tie current individuals or events to prophecies in Scripture, it seems an attempt by him and/or them to predict the future.

If that’s what he’s doing, not only is it impossible to accurately correlate the two, one could say that it borders on a form of idolatry by trying to place themselves on par with God. To attempt to know the future is an attempt to control it.

Not saying that’s what he’s consciously trying to do, but that’s the danger.

When the disciples tried to glean the future from Christ as to who would be saved, Jesus refused to answer, He simply said, “strive to enter”, meaning, “mind your own affairs.”

Again, that’s not suggesting that that is what he’s doing. Only that if that is what he is doing, its something that he shouldn’t.

I agree. We are in end times, and have been since Christ ascended. Seeing the evil in the world can definitely be a “sign of the times”, but trying to “figure it out”, so to speak, is a vain endeavor.

 

[LongingSoul]

This is an interesting commentary on the thoughts of Pope Benedict…

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – The Book of Revelation should not be read as a frightening or enigmatic warning, but as an essentially encouraging vision of Christ’s definitive victory over evil, Pope Benedict XVI said.

The pope noted that Revelation, also called the Apocalypse, had come to be mistakenly identified with the idea of an “imminent catastrophe” about to befall the world. Instead, he said, the text offers a clear expression of how the Christian faith makes ultimate sense of history. The pontiff made the comments Aug. 23 at a general audience at the Vatican. He was applauded by some 7,000 enthusiastic pilgrims who packed the Paul VI audience hall.

The Book of Revelation, the last book of the New Testament, is considered one of the most difficult to understand and interpret. The apocalyptic images recorded by the author, by tradition St. John the Apostle, have long inspired end-of-the-world scenarios, especially among Christian evangelicals. The pope said the imagery should be seen in relation to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. He said, for example, that Revelation’s key image of a slain lamb standing next to God represents the victory of the innocent Christ over evil and death, through his resurrection. Likewise, he said, Revelation’s vision of the struggle between a woman giving birth and a dragon refers to Mary, but also to the whole church, which participates in the triumph over evil. “As one sees, John wants to instill in his readers an attitude of courageous trust. With his strong and sometimes difficult images, he certainly does not intend to propose enigmas to solve, but to suggest a path of certain hope,” he said. The pope said that while Revelation is permeated by continual references to sufferings and trials, it is equally marked by expressions of praise and exultation, which represent “the luminous side of history.” In this way, he said, the book exemplifies a Christian paradox: that suffering “is never perceived as the last word, but is seen as one point in the passage to happiness and, in fact, is itself already mysteriously infused with the joy that flows from hope.”

The pope said some of the images of Revelation should be understood in the context of the dramatic suffering and persecution of the churches of Asia in the first century. For example, he said, at one point the author is described as crying at being unable to find anyone able to open the book of seven seals. “Probably these tears express the distress of the Asiatic churches over the silence of God in the face of the persecution to which they were exposed,” he said. “This distress is not unlike our own dismay at the serious problems, misunderstanding and hostility that even today the church suffers in various parts of the world,” he said. “These are sufferings the church certainly does not deserve, just as Jesus himself did not deserve his torment,” he said. After his talk, the pope spent a long time greeting the sick, who were brought up one by one for a blessing. After mingling with the crowd, he returned by helicopter to the papal villa in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome, where he was spending most of the summer. - - - The following is the Vatican text of Pope Benedict XVI’s remarks in English at his weekly general audience Aug. 23:

Dear brothers and sisters, Continuing our reflections on the teaching of the apostle John, we now consider the Book of Revelation. The seer of Patmos, identified with the apostle, is granted a series of visions meant to reassure the Christians of Asia amid the persecutions and trials of the end of the first century. John’s central vision is that of the lamb once slain, who now stands victoriously before God’s throne, sharing in the father’s kingship and power (5:6ff.). He alone is able to open the mysterious book closed with seven seals and to reveal, in the light of his own triumph over persecution and death, the ultimate meaning of history in God’s providential plan. The certain unfolding of God’s victory is seen in John’s visions of the woman who gives birth to a son destined to rule the nations (12:1ff.), the final defeat of the dragon and the heavenly Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for the wedding feast (21:2ff.). As his book draws to an end, John invites Christians of every time and place to trust in the victory of the lamb and to hope for the coming of God’s kingdom: “Come, lord Jesus!” (22:20). I am happy to greet all the English-speaking visitors present at today’s audience, including the pilgrims from Taiwan, Japan and the United States of America. May your visit to Rome renew your faith in the church, the bride of Christ, and may the lord’s definitive victory over all evil fill you with hope and courage. I invoke upon you God’s blessings of joy and peace.​

Copyright (c) 2007 Catholic News Service/U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20995

 

[PeaceInChrist]

This is an interesting commentary on the thoughts of Pope Benedict…

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20995

 

[livingwordunity]

I’m fine with this. There’s nothing wrong here. But the op is trying to actually apply Revelation and it’s subjects to current nations and people. This is impossible.

It’s not impossible to have a personal opinion about it. I never claimed that the Catholic says that America is the modern day Babylon. I’m only saying that America and the UN share similarities to Babylon. I base this on the way they are acting. My point about unprecedented major global events has been ignored.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

It’s not impossible to have a personal opinion about it. I never claimed that the Catholic says that America is the modern day Babylon. I’m only saying that America and the UN are like a modern day Babylon. I base this on the way they are acting and how it fits with the prophecies of Scripture about the global events of the End Times. My point about the unprecedented major global events has been ignored by those who disagree with me.

Have I ignored them? Or have I pointed out that there have been many wicked nations and deeds? There is evil throughout history. We have been in end times since Christ ascended. Everything that happens is a “sign of the time.” But trying to get specific is fruitless. See my other post (35).

I’ll defer to Benedict’s XVI judgement (which has been the opinion of the Church forever). See post 43.

 

[TEPO]

It’s not impossible to have a personal opinion about it. I never claimed that the Catholic says that America is the modern day Babylon. I’m only saying that America and the UN are like a modern day Babylon. I base this on the way they are acting and how it fits with the prophecies of Scripture about the global events of the End Times. My point about unprecedented major global events has been ignored.

When you say things like that, it’s like exactly what I see in my own conscience. From reading hundreds of your posts, I feel like we share a common perception on many things such as our awareness of the neo-cons/libs, globalism, progressivism, humanism, liberalism, etc, etc, etc… If you were to tell me that you believed Freemasons, English Puritans, and the ‘illuminated’ ‘masses’ from the French Revolution were all related to modern progressive humanists -then I would ask you how you got to think so similar to me.

…why wouldn’t everyone feel this way about things…?

 

[livingwordunity]

Have I ignored them? Or have I pointed out that there have been many wicked nations and deeds? There is evil throughout history. We have been in end times since Christ ascended. Everything that happens is a “sign of the time.” But trying to get specific is fruitless. See my other post (35).

I’ll defer to Benedict’s XVI judgement (which has been the opinion of the Church forever). See post 43.

What Pope Benedict was saying is that in reading the book of Revelation we should not lose sight of the fact that good will triumph over evil in the end. I agree 100% with this, and I never said anything otherwise. But good triumphing over evil means that there will be evil that comes before the good. What I’m saying is there are some ways in which the evil has been unprecedented such as with so-called same-sex “marriage” and “abortion rights” going global. Another major event that changed the world was the invention and first use of the nuclear bomb. Can we agree that these things are unprecedented in human history?
“Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.” - CCC, 675

Here’s something interesting that Pope Francis said regarding the End Times:

End times will bring greater persecution to Christians, Pope says

These worldly powers which seek to destroy God, noted the Pope, also manifest in the contemporary desire to keep religion as “a private thing,” alluding to the fact that today many religious symbols have become taboo.

“You must obey the orders which come from worldly powers. You can do many things, beautiful things, but not adore God. Worship is prohibited. This is at the center of the end of time.”

Once we “reach the fullness of this pagan attitude,” the Pope continued, “then yes, he will come…’ truly the Son of Man will come in a cloud with great power and glory.’”

 

[Amandil]

What Pope Benedict was saying is that in reading the book of Revelation we should not lose sight of the fact that good will triumph over evil in the end. I agree 100% with this, and I never said anything otherwise. But good triumphing over evil means that there will be evil that comes before the good. What I’m saying is there are some ways in which the evil has been unprecedented such as with so-called same-sex “marriage” and “abortion rights” going global. Another major event that changed the world was the invention and first use of the nuclear bomb. Can we agree that these things are unprecedented in human history?

I think what he’s saying is that it does little if any good to dwell overmuch on these things because it’s impossible to control either their causes or their effects/consequences.

The only thing we can control is how we respond to the times and circumstances that we are confronted with.

 

[livingwordunity]

When you say things like that, it’s like exactly what I see in my own conscience. From reading hundreds of your posts, I feel like we share a common perception on many things such as our awareness of the neo-cons/libs, globalism, progressivism, humanism, liberalism, etc, etc, etc… If you were to tell me that you believed Freemasons, English Puritans, and the ‘illuminated’ ‘masses’ from the French Revolution were all related to modern progressive humanists -then I would ask you how you got to think so similar to me.

…why wouldn’t everyone feel this way about things…?

Thank you for saying that you like my posts. I agree that today’s secular humanism has its roots in the French Revolution. But I don’t have much knowledge about the Freemasons. I only know that the Church has said we can’t join the Masons because they used to persecute Catholics in Mexico and because they teach a kind of religious indifferentism. I know that the English Puritans dominated English Parliament and fought against King Charles I who was sympathetic to the Catholics. And the Puritans had the Salem witch trials in the early part of American history.

 

[TEPO]

I think what he’s saying is that it does little if any good to dwell overmuch on these things because it’s impossible to control either their causes or their effects/consequences.

The only thing we can control is how we respond to the times and circumstances that we are confronted with.

Does it do any good to try and discover what tools the devil uses, and then uncover those tools by revealing the truth about them? Surely the truth is worth knowing -isn’t it?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I think what he’s saying is that it does little if any good to dwell overmuch on these things because it’s impossible to control either their causes or their effects/consequences.

The only thing we can control is how we respond to the times and circumstances that we are confronted with.

Yes. Exactly.

Revelation isn’t some kind of map to the future that we should continually try to interpret, and then reinterpret when the original fails. It’s a book that is applied to every time and place since Christ ascended. When the end does come, and Christ returns, it will be like a thief in the night. Spending time trying to apply the subjects in Revelation specifically to current events will lead nowhere.

 

[livingwordunity]

I think what he’s saying is that it does little if any good to dwell overmuch on these things because it’s impossible to control either their causes or their effects/consequences.

The only thing we can control is how we respond to the times and circumstances that we are confronted with.

I think it depends on the way that someone thinks about it. For me, when I think about how the evil things of today relate to the End Times I’m also thinking about how Jesus is going to come, if not in my lifetime in one of the generations after, and put an end to the evil. We can know that the battles against evil that it looks like we are losing are going to eventually be won when Jesus returns. So, the way I think about it is with hope and not with despair.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Does it do any good to try and discover what tools the devil uses, and then uncover those tools by revealing the truth about them? Surely the truth is worth knowing -isn’t it?

We know the tools the devil uses: all that is evil. We have the commandments. We have the truth. And, most importantly, we have the Spirit to lead us. What else do we need? Apocalyptic conjecture? Certainly not! The saints became saints not by fruitlessly conjecturing about Revelation, but by being conformed to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and being perfected in this way in Faith, Hope, and Charity. This is what matters. Not apocalyptic conjecture.

 

[TEPO]

I think it depends on the way that someone thinks about it. For me, when I think about how the evil things of today relate to the End Times I’m also thinking about how Jesus is going to come and put an end to the evil. So, the way I think about it is with hope and not with despair.

It’s good to know which pathways are evil. It’s not impossible to understand, because God can see it. Those who want to know can learn.

 

[TEPO]

We know the tools the devil uses: all that is evil. We have the commandments. We have the truth. And, most importantly, we have the Spirit to lead us. What else do we need? Apocalyptic conjecture? Certainly not! The saints became saints not by fruitlessly conjecturing about Revelation, but by being conformed to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and being perfected in this way in Faith, Hope, and Charity. This is what matters. Not apocalyptic conjecture.

It’s not only the commandments, my friend. If it were, the Popes wouldn’t have made infallible statements regarding modernism and secret fraternal orders. Surely the Popes were not mistaken, and if they didn’t want us to know, then why would they say these things.

 

[LongingSoul]

I think it depends on the way that someone thinks about it. For me, when I think about how the evil things of today relate to the End Times I’m also thinking about how Jesus is going to come, if not in my lifetime in one of the generations after, and put an end to the evil. We can know that the battles against evil that it looks like we are losing are going to eventually be won when Jesus returns. So, the way I think about it is with hope and not with despair.

The reality of most ‘end timers’ doesn’t show that historically though. They tend to focus on who they deem the evil ones and embark on a campaign of persecution ‘in the name of the Lord’. Unfortunately, they feel a sense of being the special ‘elect’ and neglect the necessary self/conscience examination that is essential for true humility and hopefulness.

 

[TEPO]

There is clearly evidence of the Church identifying unholy patterns and groups… Therefore, it is normal for Catholics to question other things similar. By understanding what patterns and groups follow anti-Catholic views, and by witnessing it for ourselves, we can understand how to survive from becoming unaware apostates.

 

[TEPO]

The reality of most ‘end timers’ doesn’t show that historically though. They tend to focus on who they deem the evil ones and embark on a campaign of persecution ‘in the name of the Lord’. Unfortunately, they feel a sense of being the special ‘elect’ and neglect the necessary self/conscience examination that is essential for true humility and hopefulness.

This is the problem with history -that it’s historically written by the victors, as the losers tend to lose their lives. (or became enslaved). How many lost civilizations and tribes were never able to tell their side of the story? Therefore, history is not always the truth. I’m much more trusting of anthropology when learning, although even anthropology is not bias proof.