Why do I sometimes get called a "fundamentalist" when I say that Jesus will return to judge the world?

[TEPO]

Oops… TEPO the thread killer strikes again…?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

It’s not only the commandments, my friend. If it were, the Popes wouldn’t have made infallible statements regarding modernism and secret fraternal orders. Surely the Popes were not mistaken, and if they didn’t want us to know, then why would they say these things.

Infallible statements would securely fall into the realm of the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which I mentioned.

Infallible proclamations are guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church is promised of this. You, in your speculation on end times, are not.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Oops… TEPO the thread killer strikes again…?

Hardly. Internet conversations stop and go.

You never responded to post 52. You also seem to draw some parallel in importance to the infallible and authoritative teaching power of the Church, and an individial’s speculation on end times. I assure you, they are worlds apart in importance. One is promised the guidance of the Spirit. One is not. I’ll assume you know which.

 

[esieffe]

I think what he’s saying is that it does little if any good to dwell overmuch on these things because it’s impossible to control either their causes or their effects/consequences.

The only thing we can control is how we respond to the times and circumstances that we are confronted with.

That reminds me of the passage in the Lord of the Rings which the Vatican has spoken highly of:
Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.

Click below to enlarge.

 

[livingwordunity]

That reminds me of the passage in the Lord of the Rings which the Vatican has spoken highly of:
Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.

There’s good and evil in the world, but according to the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church the world reaches a boiling point of evil just before Jesus comes and triumphs over the evil.

 

[Amandil]

That reminds me of the passage in the Lord of the Rings which the Vatican has spoken highly of:
Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.

Click below to enlarge.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

That reminds me of the passage in the Lord of the Rings which the Vatican has spoken highly of:
Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.

Click below to enlarge.

Awesome. Thank you for that

 

[livingwordunity]

“The continuation of this text announces that before the Lord’s arrival there will be apostasy, and one well described as the “man of lawlessness”, “the son of perdition” (2: 3) must be revealed, who tradition would come to call the Antichrist.” - Benedict XVI, General Audience at St. Peter’s Square 12 November 2008

This is the passage from the Holy Bible that Pope Benedict XVI was referencing:

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.” - 2 Thessalonian 2:1-4

“Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.” - CCC, 675

 

[TEPO]

Hardly. Internet conversations stop and go.

You never responded to post 52. You also seem to draw some parallel in importance to the infallible and authoritative teaching power of the Church, and an individial’s speculation on end times. I assure you, they are worlds apart in importance. One is promised the guidance of the Spirit. One is not. I’ll assume you know which.

I agree in part with both 52 and 61… But that’s only because I cannot understand revelation so much. To understand eschatology for me, I go instead to anthropology, and I follow trends and relationships, ideologies and cultures, science, archaeology, politics, economics, governance and other things… But what’s funny, is that Livingwordunity and myself have come to similar conclusions through different means.

…why the Church has adopted the ideology of ignoring certain evils is strange to me. It wouldn’t make me a better Catholic to follow that -although it may for other more hardened individuals, but I’m already too soft. so I’m not your normal Catholic. It’s what I have become, and is what I must fix.

My mission in part is to expose potential danger for the sake of those who have abandoned small levels of truth for small levels of peace… Humanism leads to apostasy. Livingwordunity and myself can see this for some reason. Others are blind to it.

 

[TEPO]

The 2nd Pentecost can only last a short time, for God will soon inform His children when that time is up. At that time humanism will have melted off all the fat from the calf, who will remain strong as ever, and will live forever.

…there. I’ve offered you some heart-felt insight as to my prediction -no harm in that right? Since you can choose to accept it or deny it based on your own free will.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

“The continuation of this text announces that before the Lord’s arrival there will be apostasy, and one well described as the “man of lawlessness”, “the son of perdition” (2: 3) must be revealed, who tradition would come to call the Antichrist.” - Benedict XVI, General Audience at St. Peter’s Square 12 November 2008

This is the passage from the Holy Bible that Pope Benedict XVI was referencing:

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.” - 2 Thessalonian 2:1-4

“Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.” - CCC, 675

Good luck identifying him without the assurance of infallibility. It will be guesswork. Those that lived during Nero’s persecution thought it was Nero. Those that lived during Diocletian, the same. Someone, sometime will be right eventually, and they won’t know it until they see Christ coming.

And even if someone knew who it was, how would this change anything? We would continue living exactly as we had, striving for the Kingdom of God.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I agree in part with both 52 and 61… But that’s only because I cannot understand revelation so much. To understand eschatology for me, I go instead to anthropology, and I follow trends and relationships, ideologies and cultures, science, archaeology, politics, economics, governance and other things… But what’s funny, is that Livingwordunity and myself have come to similar conclusions through different means.

…why the Church has adopted the ideology of ignoring certain evils is strange to me. It wouldn’t make me a better Catholic to follow that -although it may for other more hardened individuals, but I’m already too soft. so I’m not your normal Catholic. It’s what I have become, and is what I must fix.

My mission in part is to expose potential danger for the sake of those who have abandoned small levels of truth for small levels of peace… Humanism leads to apostasy. Livingwordunity and myself can see this for some reason. Others are blind to it.

Who said the Church ignores evil? The pope and bishops have continually condemned specific evils since the beginning. Secular humanism has been condemned (anything that separates Christ from works and charity has been). All enlightenment era false philosophy and anti-theism (modernism and such) has been condemned. There is literally nothing new you can identify and save us from. It’s not even your place to do so. The Church will do so.

You can certainly inform others of evil, but that’s every catholic’s mission. And what’s more, it has nothing to do with apocalyptic conjecture

 

[LongingSoul]

…why the Church has adopted the ideology of ignoring certain evils is strange to me. It wouldn’t make me a better Catholic to follow that -although it may for other more hardened individuals, but I’m already too soft. so I’m not your normal Catholic. It’s what I have become, and is what I must fix.

My mission in part is to expose potential danger for the sake of those who have abandoned small levels of truth for small levels of peace… Humanism leads to apostasy. Livingwordunity and myself can see this for some reason. Others are blind to it.

The purpose of the second Vatican council was to try and more fully follow the example of Christ both internally and in evangelising the world and a big part of this is in the way we address evil. Since Christ, we no longer seek and value division. We have to seek unity. That should not mean ‘abandoning small levels of truth for small levels of peace’. The approach which is perhaps a remnant of pre-Christian existence, of attacking and conquering ‘the enemy’ to do Gods will… has the danger of rejecting some of the most fundamental teachings of Christ.

Take the example of gay marriage. Pope Francis has remained steadfast in stating that marriage is between a man and a woman, but he seems to be saying that constantly arguing against homosexuality from an ideological basis is not helpful or productive to evangelisation. Instead of division and the divisive approach, he is encouraging a more ecumenical approach. That is, lets find the common ground where the Church has no ideological objection and try and resolve our differences. In a recent interview, according to the Vatican Insiders translation, he said of civil unions… “We have to look at the different cases and evaluate them in their variety.” with regards to health care and economic benefits.

The media of course has taken that to mean that the Church now approves of civil unions but this is the sympton of the fundamentally divisive approach to the issue. Coming at it from a more co operative Christlike angle means meeting on a common ground to resolve what can be resolved, only leaving that most basic difference between the Catholic and secular beliefs at issue. Myself, I find it scary and exhilarating at the same time to go this road, but the most relevant fact is that old approach of ideologically attack has lead to the creation of a great monster. We are in a battle of Church people versus ‘homosexuals’. It has lead to so much division at all levels of society.

Fundamentally, we cannot fight evil and sin with division. We can only make it worse with that approach.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

The 2nd Pentecost can only last a short time, for God will soon inform His children when that time is up. At that time humanism will have melted off all the fat from the calf, who will remain strong as ever, and will live forever.

…there. I’ve offered you some heart-felt insight as to my prediction -no harm in that right? Since you can choose to accept it or deny it based on your own free will.

I had to look up “second Pentacost” and it came up with a bunch of apocalyptic blogs and such. I thought the Lord’s Pentacost was it, and as far as I’m aware, it’s good till the end of time (Holy Spirit and all)

Besides this, I could literally replace ‘humanism’ in your post with just about any past evil. Soviets, nazis, Ottomans, nihilists, Mongols, Romans, ect. Evil has been since we’ve turned from God. It will be until He comes again. Evils are identified by the Church, and we are to avoid them while living the Gospel and being conformed to Christ through prayer and the sacraments. BWhy spend time trying to figure out which evil is ‘the’ evil, and which antichrist is ‘the’ antichrist? Why not just recognize evil by the Church’s teaching and then just live a Christian life (as best we can)?

I’d say to stop trying to figure it out, and live as Christ commanded. Read Matthew 24. He gave us all this advice on the end times, and said we don’t know the hour. Why keep trying against His advice?

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[d] but the Father only.

 

[livingwordunity]

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[d] but the Father only.

I never claimed to know the day and the hour of the Second Coming. I don’t even claim to know which generation will see it. It could happen in my lifetime, or it might not. For reasons that I have given in earlier parts of this thread, I believe that the events that precede the Second Coming have been spread out over the whole history of the Church but are intensifying. Some parts of prophecy are veiled such as with the day and hour of the Second Coming. But other parts are more clear. If we aren’t to give it any thought why would it be in there in Sacred Scripture for us to read about?

 

[TEPO]

I had to look up “second Pentacost” and it came up with a bunch of apocalyptic blogs and such. I thought the Lord’s Pentacost was it, and as far as I’m aware, it’s good till the end of time (Holy Spirit and all).

Here’s where I learned about the 2nd Pentecost… ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/69/69.1/69.1.1.pdf

Not sure if I really subscribe to it as such, and I’m not one of those anti-Vat2 kind of people, but when I do think of Pentecost, what really comes to mind is something temporary. I do also believe that there may have been a period of ‘spiritual coldness’ during the days leading up to the civil rights movement and Vatican 2.

…but I do feel like we are reaching a point where this period of spiritual unity has begun to spoil. Humanitarianism has turned to humanism, unity has triggered ideological power struggles, and this is because the devils work, it seems, is never done… And because of that, the Church has a powerful competitor to tend with -one who would love to rain on our holy parade. I’m not suggesting we weep over this though. I’m simply saying we should be prepared to stand our ground… And I’m not saying this hasn’t happened before, or that this is it. But I am saying that something is going to happen, and I want to find out what it is before it happens so I can be of use in battling it. I don’t want to end up like those who supported Hitler, by being naive in trusting and falling for all sorts of propaganda.

(IMPORTANT NOTE: the original Pentecost occurred as short instance, where people spoke in “tongues of fire” and received graces unimaginable to what we know including miracles. it’s not, as far as I understand, the overshadowing of the Spirit- the Holy Spirit has been here since the creative act, long before Pentecost. I think the Pentecost was like one or two days according to official Catholic teaching, I’ll have to look that up.)

 

[TEPO]

The purpose of the second Vatican council was to try and more fully follow the example of Christ both internally and in evangelising the world and a big part of this is in the way we address evil. Since Christ, we no longer seek and value division. We have to seek unity. That should not mean ‘abandoning small levels of truth for small levels of peace’. The approach which is perhaps a remnant of pre-Christian existence, of attacking and conquering ‘the enemy’ to do Gods will… has the danger of rejecting some of the most fundamental teachings of Christ.

Take the example of gay marriage. Pope Francis has remained steadfast in stating that marriage is between a man and a woman, but he seems to be saying that constantly arguing against homosexuality from an ideological basis is not helpful or productive to evangelisation. Instead of division and the divisive approach, he is encouraging a more ecumenical approach. That is, lets find the common ground where the Church has no ideological objection and try and resolve our differences. In a recent interview, according to the Vatican Insiders translation, he said of civil unions… “We have to look at the different cases and evaluate them in their variety.” with regards to health care and economic benefits.

The media of course has taken that to mean that the Church now approves of civil unions but this is the sympton of the fundamentally divisive approach to the issue. Coming at it from a more co operative Christlike angle means meeting on a common ground to resolve what can be resolved, only leaving that most basic difference between the Catholic and secular beliefs at issue. Myself, I find it scary and exhilarating at the same time to go this road, but the most relevant fact is that old approach of ideologically attack has lead to the creation of a great monster. We are in a battle of Church people versus ‘homosexuals’. It has lead to so much division at all levels of society.

Fundamentally, we cannot fight evil and sin with division. We can only make it worse with that approach.

Pope Francis cannot promote civil unions in the interests of temporal needs such as healthcare or finances. To do so would be to adjust the gravity of sin based on the needs of the flesh… Something St. Augustine spoke elegantly about was the seperation of the soul and the body -in that the body argues with the Soul…

I also understand the view that some have in aligning themselves with Unity as an ideology we must follow. I’m here to tell you that those days may be reaching an end. I call myself a post modern tribal Catholic for a reason, and that reason is because to love my neighbor, what I need to do is tell him the truth. Not work with him on meeting somewhere in the middle, where we both give a little to get a little (peace/unity). When we tell homosexuals it is acceptable and right for them to have a civil marriage, we have made a trade off. IMHO, that is apostacy. Do you agree?

 

[TEPO]

Also, the concept of unity seems like a precursor to the concept of separation that Christ will lay down when He comes to seperate those of His flock with the rest who will be eternally forgotten…

…these things are temporary -which is why the counsel was pastoral in nature -because it doesn’t last forever as eternal truth. And it can’t be eternal truth because there will exist eternal separation, which is sad. And I was told once by a priest that we will have no recollection of those eternally separated, but I’m not sure we can know that -because I don’t think God can forget.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Here’s where I learned about the 2nd Pentecost… ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/69/69.1/69.1.1.pdf

Not sure if I really subscribe to it as such, and I’m not one of those anti-Vat2 kind of people, but when I do think of Pentecost, what really comes to mind is something temporary. I do also believe that there may have been a period of ‘spiritual coldness’ during the days leading up to the civil rights movement and Vatican 2.

…but I do feel like we are reaching a point where this period of spiritual unity has begun to spoil. Humanitarianism has turned to humanism, unity has triggered ideological power struggles, and this is because the devils work, it seems, is never done… And because of that, the Church has a powerful competitor to tend with -one who would love to rain on our holy parade. I’m not suggesting we weep over this though. I’m simply saying we should be prepared to stand our ground… And I’m not saying this hasn’t happened before, or that this is it. But I am saying that something is going to happen, and I want to find out what it is before it happens so I can be of use in battling it. I don’t want to end up like those who supported Hitler, by being naive in trusting and falling for all sorts of propaganda.

Hitlet was recognized as evil by Catholics, and was resisted by many. See Maximilian Kolbe. You don’t need to speculate on Apocalyptic signs to avoid evil. You need the guidance of the Church and the formation of the Holy Spirit. Kolbe had these. All saints have this. This is what matters.

(IMPORTANT NOTE: the original Pentecost occurred as short instance, where people spoke in “tongues of fire” and received graces unimaginable to what we know including miracles. it’s not, as far as I understand, the overshadowing of the Spirit- the Holy Spirit has been here since the creative act, long before Pentecost. I think the Pentecost was like one or two days according to official Catholic teaching, I’ll have to look that up.)

We celebrate the feast of Pentacost each year, and our own Pentacost is our confirmation. We receive the same Holy Spirit as the apostles.

 

[livingwordunity]

Hitlet was recognized as evil by Catholics, and was resisted by many. See Maximilian Kolbe. You don’t need to speculate on Apocalyptic signs to avoid evil. You need the guidance of the Church and the formation of the Holy Spirit. Kolbe had these. All saints have this. This is what matters.

With all due respect, the phenomenon of so-called “abortion rights” and same-sex “marriage” going global is unprecedented, and I’m not able to bury my head in the sand and not notice these things.