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twb1621
Guest
Just what is Jesus to the JW? I have yet to find a JW who can answer who they believe He is.
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Tomster
Guest
The answer, I think anyway, lies in their denial that the Holy Spirit is God.
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JeanneH
Guest
I think that the JW’s believe that Jesus is the son of God. That He is the first creation of God. Jesus is a god but not the Almighty God. The JW’s do not believe in the Trinity.
Jeanne
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Carlan
Guest
yes, they do not believe in the divinity of Christ. There is something about Saint Michael the Archangel in their beliefs. They do not celebrate Christmas or Easter. I am not sure what their religion stands for. I do not think they call themselves Christians. They do believe in God the Father though. Carlan
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twb1621
Guest
Ah yes. Now, They believe there is one God. Here is the kicker. JW deny Jesus is God. Jesus proclaims more than a few times in scripture He is God. They do not believe in the Trinity. So if they deny Jesus is God when He said He is God, they then must consider Him a liar. So if they believe He lied, how do they justify giving Him any form of honor or recognition when He could not be of God at all and be deceitful?
there is a JW floating through the forum but HE wont answer so perhaps someone else can explain it…
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zerinus
Guest
JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”. Source.
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JeanneH
Guest
You have to take into consideration that the Watchtower wrote their own bible to match what they teach. Off the top of my head I don’t remember the particular scriptures where Jesus is proclaiming to be God. It might be that to go along with what they teach they might have changed the scripture in these places.Ah yes. Now, They believe there is one God. Here is the kicker. JW deny Jesus is God. Jesus proclaims more than a few times in scripture He is God. They do not believe in the Trinity. So if they deny Jesus is God when He said He is God, they then must consider Him a liar. So if they believe He lied, how do they justify giving Him any form of honor or recognition when He could not be of God at all and be deceitful?
there is a JW floating through the forum but HE wont answer so perhaps someone else can explain it…
There are 2 JW’s that I know of on the forum
Jeanne
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mackbrislawn
Guest
I don’t think many JW’s know what they believe. But if they knew they would say that in His previous existence, Jesus was Michael the Archangel, and that God took His “life-force” and transferred it to the womb of Mary. God did not transfer Jesus’ soul, but transferred His “life-force,” whatever that is. JW’s also believe that when Jesus died, the man Jesus died and remains dead forever. His body was not resurrected. What happened was that God recreated Him as a mighty spirit creature, and is now in heaven again resuming His career as Michael the Archangel.
Makes your head swim.
They further believe that when He was on earth, Jesus was only a man, even though a perfect man. And as a perfect man, He could atone for Adam’s sin, as the second Adam. But as only a man, He could only pay the corresponding ransom for Adam’s sin (original sin) but not for our own personal sins.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
You believe Jesus is God but don’t remember any verses off the top of your head? Is the matter important enough to you to research the question. What if Jesus never claimed to be God even in Catholic bibles? Can you provide a verse where Jesus says, I am God? One thing Jesus does say is:
NJB John 17:1 After saying this, Jesus raised his eyes to heaven and said: Father, the hour has come: glorify your Son so that your Son may glorify you; 2 so that, just as you have given him power over all humanity, he may give eternal life to all those you have entrusted to him. 3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Jesus states in Catholic bibles that his Father is the only true God.
Jesus calls his Father the one God:
NJB John 5:43 I have come in the name of my Father and you refuse to accept me; if someone else should come in his own name you would accept him. 44 How can you believe, since you look to each other for glory and are not concerned with the glory that comes from the one God?
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mackbrislawn
Guest
It’s quite true, Jesus never says, “I am God.” Nor, on the other hand, does he say, “I am Michael the Archangel.” And that’s the problem with biblical exegesis, so many of the beliefs we have are not directly stated in scripture but are inferred from scripture instead. That Jesus is Michael is something that is inferred, arrived at by a chain of reasoning. Reasoning that may or may not be appropriate or true. This is true for the reasoning for the deity of Christ, and for the reasoning that Jesus is Michael.
Yes, the scriptures are infallible, but our human reasoning is not infallible. It can make mistakes. Therefore, we can never be certain that our interpretation of scripture, our reasoning from scripture, is correct.
What is a solution to this problem? Both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholics appeal to a similar solution: an authoritative interpreter. JW’s use the Watchtower Society, and Catholics use the Catholic Church. The Watchtower authoritatively says Jesus is Michael, and the Catholic Church authoritatively says Jesus is God the Son. Which is right? It depends upon which authority we choose.
All right, which authority should we choose? This question shifts the debate from arguing over scripture–an argument that by its very nature can never be solved–to the debate of authority. What authority is right? The Watchtower Society? The Catholic Church? The Mormon hierarchy? Ellen G. White? Herbert W. Armstrong?
Or, are the Protestants right, that there is no such thing as an authoritative scripture interpreter?
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JeanneH
Guest
From the DR
Ex.3:14 God Said to Moses: I AM WHO I AM. He said: thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me to you
15 And God said again to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob hath sent me to you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made I AM.( God’s name)
Jeanne
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Don9of11
Guest
I think your examples are taken out of context consider:
In John 10 verse 30-38, Jesus clearly states the “Father and I are one”. How could a created being say that he is one and the same as his creator?
In Matthew 28:19, Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
John 8:58, when Jesus was quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am”—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—“I Am” (Ex. 3:14).
In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, “My Lord and my God!” (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, “The Lord of me and the God of me!”)
In Philippians 2:6-11, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus “who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped”.
In Rev:1:8, this is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title “the Alpha and the Omega,” which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty”
In John 5:18, we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he “called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”
Only through the Holy Spirit and not mountains of bible verses will come to understand and believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, that he is the second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of the Father, One in nature with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
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Tomster
Guest
Don,
Well said.
The teaching of revelation with regard to the second Person of the Blessed Trinity centers in the doctrine, the teaching of truth, of his real and perfect sonship. If he is the real Son of God, then he must be consubstantial with the Father, that is, of the same divine nature as the Father, or, as the Creed has it, “true God of true God.” There will be community, in fact identity of nature. On the other hand, if the sonship is real, so too must be the distinction of personality. Now, that the sonship is real is stated in the New Testament in the most unequivocal manner: “God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son” (John 3:16); “the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18) This real sonship of Christ is even contrasted by St. John with adoptive sonship, for Christ is “only-begotten,” whereas “as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God.” (John 1:12).
St. Paul, too, stresses the fact that the filiation of Christ is of a different and higher order than that of the adoptive sonship even of the angels (say good bye to Michael the Archangel theory). St. Paul says that God “in these days hath spoken to us by his Son , who he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world,” and who is, “the figure of his substance.” St. Paul then goes on to say that this Son, being made higher than the angels, hath inherited a more excellent name than they, “for to which of the angels hath he said at any time, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let ALL [emph. mine] the angels of God ADORE [again, emph. mine] him." (Hebrews 1:1-6)
The scriptural language used of Christ is unintelliglble unless he is the Son of God in the most literal sense of sonship. It is clear, then, that the second Person of the Blessed Trinity proceeds from the Father by generation which is from all eternity.
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Tomster
Guest
twb1621,
To what degree JW’s “fear” Jesus in Scripture would, in my opinion, depend on the individual JW.
From an historical perspective, though, the reasons for their existence and their beliefs can be traced back through time to the heresies the Church first encountered in her infancy. Two come to mind immediately, Gnosticism and Arianism.
It must be remembered that, in dealing with any heresy, one of its major characteristics is that it is always changing. It is unstable. What was true one day is no longer true today due to a new revelation given to someone which overides a prior revelation given to someone else (Gnosticism). Possibly this could be a reason for their fear. Who can the disciples of the sect trust to give them the true doctrine, the true teaching as has been said elsewhere? When a neophyte enters into the sect they are given a lot of materials to digest. As time goes on, and if the neophyte retains his ability to use the gift of reason, the neophyte begins to see contradictions in the sect’s doctrines, teachings. It is at this point, in my opinion, that real fear sets in.
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twb1621
Guest
interesting to know if that is the case…:dts:
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twb1621
Guest
Jesus said, before Abraham, 'I AM". God our Father said he was “I AM”. If there is a Trinity, this is not a porblem. If you believe in one God and Jesus is not God, you believe He is deceitful in which case justify for me your recognition of Him.
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twb1621
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Excellent Don, Dan has me blocked so he can only see what I post if someone quotes me…
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twb1621
Guest
I understand, but the thing that makes me frustrated enough to “call down lightening” if you get my drift is how someone can twist and in this case fabricate God’s word so badly, gain followers then have the teachings changed on them and they continue to believe in the guy they picked it all up from without ever looking deeper into the facts.
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Tomster
Guest
twb1621,
I can appreciate your frustration. Be of good cheer. Rest in the knowledge that our Lord is truly present in all of the tabernacles all over the world. What Dan doesn’t understand and what Fr. John Corapi so wonderfully and forcefully expounds on is simply “THE TRUTH ISN’T SOMETHING, IT’S SOMEBODY - THE ETERNAL TRUTH, JESUS, THE CHRIST!”
There will always be, sadly, those who want their ears tickled by the likes of Dan. Prayer for their conversion and for our own deeper conversion is necessary here. We, you and me, have to leave the lightning to the Lord. The wheat and weeds will grow together until the final judgment. Let’s just make sure that we are both seeking to do His will and, by His grace, we are fruitful.
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JeanneH
Guest
Here is a site that will show you how the NWT translator’s changed some of the bible verses to go along with what they teach. They used to use the KJ but I guess then they needed a bible to match their teachings. Scroll down to E.
bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm
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