Why do lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics?

[Peter_J]

I must say I have been mystified by what “non-nonCatholic” really means.

I might change it … I get tired of everyone saying “I get that you aren’t a non-Catholic, but what are you?”

 

[PRmerger]

Is there a legal copyright that gives Latin Catholics sole right to use the term “Catholic” to apply the word Catholic only?

As an Orthodox Christian I find the triumphalism in this very unatractive, and not charitable at all.

Can someone link to such a document that gives Latins sole use of the word ‘Catholic’?

This sounds quite errily reminiscent of the accusation that is made against Traditional Marriage advocates.

We are accused of a triumphalism and a usurpation of the term “marriage”.

The homosexual voice cries, “Who says that you get to define marriage? You don’t get to claim that entity for just a man and a woman!”

The Catholic response is: yes, sir, we do, actually get to claim that definition.

That response in red applies to both the homosexual lobby as well as those who are testy about our claim to the word “Catholic.”

 

[andrewstx]

I wonder how the Orthodox would feel if those who were not Orthodox used the word evangelical Orthodox etc. The term orthodox may not be the sol right for the Orthodox to use if others want to use the word for define themselves but are not Orthodox.

The word “Orthodox” literally means having correct belief of worship. Their are actually several conservative Protestant denominations who use “Orthodox” in their names. I am most familiar with the Orthodox Presbyterian church. I know of others as well.

If they wish to use Orthodox as a name more power to them. We have no more copyright to Orthodox than you have to Catholic.

I am no triumphalist myself.

BTW their once was a church using the term Evangelical Orthodox they went into the Antiochian Orthodox church.

 

[Peter_J]

The homosexual voice cries, “Who says that you get to define marriage? You don’t get to claim that entity for just a man and a woman!”

Boy are my cheeks red. I thought we were on a thread about Lutherans.

 

[PRmerger]

The word “Orthodox” literally means having correct belief of worship. Their are actually several conservative Protestant denominations who use “Orthodox” in their names. I am most familiar with the Orthodox Presbyterian church. I know of others as well.

If they wish to use Orthodox as a name more power to them. We have no more copyright to Orthodox than you have to Catholic.

I bet that you wouldn’t be so cheery about this if their use of the label Orthodox meant, “Well, yes, indeed, we are a part of the Orthodox Church! Not all Orthodox folks have to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist! And lots of Orthodox folks profess that once we are saved, we are always saved! And lots of Orthodox folks can believe that God has predestined some folks to hell!”

Nope.

The Orthodox here would be stepping up to say, “Ummm…if you want to be a member of our Church, then you need to profess that Christ truly present in the Eucharist. And that we can lose our salvation. And that God predestines no one to hell!”

 

[spina1953]

I bet that you wouldn’t be so cheery about this if their use of the label Orthodox meant, “Well, yes, indeed, we are a part of the Orthodox Church! Not all Orthodox folks have to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist! And lots of Orthodox folks profess that once we are saved, we are always saved! And lots of Orthodox folks can believe that God has predestined some folks to hell!”

Nope.

The Orthodox here would be stepping up to say, “Ummm…if you want to be a member of our Church, then you need to profess that Christ truly present in the Eucharist. And that we can lose our salvation. And that God predestines no one to hell!”

Hi PRmerger: You said it better than I could. Thanks it was I was trying to get at.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Well, this is ANOTHER area of disunity. We would not view that document as anything authoritative.

That you have used it as an authoritative source for changing the Lutheran doctrine of 2 valid sacraments is telling.

We cannot even agree on what is a source of authority.

Lutherans (you?) view that document as magisterial.
Catholics view that document as helpful and interesting and hopeful.

So you will have to be rather accepting of my high skepticism that what you are saying is anywhere near a Lutheran doctrinal change proposing that they no longer view only 2 sacraments as valid.

Google search tells me that no Lutheran doctrine has changed in this regard.

google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=lutheran%20sacraments

Predictably you question the authority of the Lutheran Church called the Augsburg Confession in your apparent effort to undermine others. Lutherans celebrate holy Baptism, holy Communion, holy Absolution and view the others as sacramental rites that can be called sacraments per our Confessions.

This understanding is summarized in Article VII of the Augsburg
Confession:
Likewise, they teach that one holy church will remain forever. The church
is the assembly of saints in which the gospel is taught purely and the
sacraments are administered rightly. And it is enough for the true unity of
the church to agree concerning the teaching of the gospel and the administration
of the sacraments. It is not necessary that human traditions, rites,
or ceremonies instituted by human beings be alike everywhere. As Paul
says [Eph. 4:5,6]: “One faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all …”4

Apology XIII: “Therefore Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God’s command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament.”

The express purpose of the Augsburg Confession is to bear witness to the faith of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Its and concern is not with peculiar doctrines nor indeed with the establishment of a new Church (CA 7,1), but with the preservation and renewal of the Christian faith in its purity in harmony with the Ancient Church, and “the Church of Rome,” and in agreement with the witness of Holy Scripture.3 This explicit intention of the Confessio Augustana is also still important for our understanding of the later Lutheran confessional documents.

Joint studies by Catholic and Lutheran theologians4 have shown that the contents of the statements of the Augsburg Confession in large measure fulfill this intention and to this extent can be regarded as an expression of the common faith.
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int…onechrist.html

Catholics and Lutherans together understand that the communion with God mediated through word and sacrament leads to communion of the faithful among themselves. This takes concrete shape in the communion of the churches: the one holy catholic and apostolic church, the una sancta of the, creed is realized in the communio ecclesiarum as local, regional and universal communion, and so as church fellowship.
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int…urch3.html#3.4

 

[PRmerger]

Predictably you question the authority of the Lutheran Church called the Augsburg Confession in your apparent effort to undermine others.

Well, yeah. I* am *questioning your authority to declare that the Lutheran church no longer teaches that there are 2 valid sacraments.

I make no apologies about my skepticism of almost everything you post regarding this alleged union between my Church and yours. It is almost always a gross overstatement.

We have a* hope* for a union between your church and mine. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

And I have done a bit o’ research meself about this alleged change in doctrine regarding 2 vs 7 sacraments…and haven’t found a single authoritative statement that declares that this doctrine has changed.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, yeah. I* am *questioning your authority to declare that the Lutheran church no longer teaches that there are 2 valid sacraments.

I make no apologies about my skepticism of almost everything you post regarding this alleged union between my Church and yours. It is almost always a gross overstatement.

We have a* hope* for a union between your church and mine. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

And I have done a bit o’ research meself about this alleged change in doctrine regarding 2 vs 7 sacraments…and haven’t found a single authoritative statement that declares that this doctrine has changed.

Another Google search turned up about 220,000 sites in response to the query: “How many sacraments in the Lutheran church?”

See if any of them state that they no longer recognize only 2…

google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20many%20sacraments%20in%20the%20lutheran%20church

QED

 

[commenter]

Except, of course, that your own Magisterium recognizes the Catholicity of, say, the Orthodox and the PNCC. Therefore ‘Catholic’ cannot mean ‘in communion with Rome.’

“Catholicity”?

We recognize the Orthodox Christians as having “Churches”.
We also recognize the Orthodox, and some other Christians, as having valid sacraments, and some as having Apostolic Succession among individuals in their membership. Among other Christians, we recognize their baptisms and other features. This doesn’t necessarily means they are part of the Catholic Church. I would say the PNCC are simply late Protestants, who accept Catholic tradition until well into the 1800s. Or someone else may describe the Lutherans as earlier Catholics, in the sense they accept all Catholic tradition up to a point - a point hundreds of years before the PNCC would draw the line.
Baptists might be considered by some (not me) to be “very early” Catholics in that they would say only the very early Catholic tradition is reliable. Some fringe groups that split off after Vatican II I would label extremely late Protestants, even if they have the word “Catholic” in their title. If you’re going to label the PNCC as Catholic, why not Baptists? They are on the same side of an important line.

My own preference is that the word Catholic refer only to those currently in communion with the Pope. No, there is no copyright, but it’s a question of courtesy and clarity in communication.

 

[7_Sorrows]

really nice to see the people defending the One, Holy,
Apostolic and Catholic church! Good work!

 

[7_Sorrows]

“Catholicity”?

My own preference is that the word Catholic refer only to those currently in communion with the Pope. No, there is no copyright, but it’s a question of courtesy and clarity in communication.

Yes!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The first picture is not of Lutherans. They all used to be Lutherans (from the Church of Sweden and the Church of Norway), but are now part of the Nordic Catholic Church, which is the Northern European wing of the PNCC.

The people on the picture is, from left to right, Archdeacon Petrus Michael Catenacci, Father Matteus Maria Furemalm (the vicar of the parish in Stockholm and the vicar of the bishop in Sweden), bishop Roald Nikolai Flemestad, and Father Asle Ambrosius Dingstad (the vicar and Dean of the parish in Oslo). I know the last two personally, and am on a first name basis with them.

Wow, what are the odds of posting a photo off Google that someone on the other side of the Atlantic would recognize and even know the individuals? These priests/ bishop are identified as Lutheran per Google but now we know they have moved closer to the Church of Rome. I read where the archbishop of Sweden has urged closer ties/ full-communion with PNCC. Do you think that will occur soon? How do these brothers believe differently from Lutheran priests?

Can you identify these clergy? I especially like the first photo.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Well, yeah. I* am *questioning your authority to declare that the Lutheran church no longer teaches that there are 2 valid sacraments.

I make no apologies about my skepticism of almost everything you post regarding this alleged union between my Church and yours. It is almost always a gross overstatement.

We have a* hope* for a union between your church and mine. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

And I have done a bit o’ research meself about this alleged change in doctrine regarding 2 vs 7 sacraments…and haven’t found a single authoritative statement that declares that this doctrine has changed.

You certainly have your own opinion and probably one of the last posters one would go to for unbiased opinions. Remember your argument that Lutherans can not use the word “Catholic” in the ecumenical creeds?

You don’t have to agree with the Declaration between Catholics and Lutherans even if it means you are out of sync with the Holy See.

 

[Peter_J]

Wow, what are the odds of posting a photo off Google that someone on the other side of the Atlantic would recognize and even know the individuals?

Actually, William Tighe certainly knows Bishop Flemestad, since he even interviewed him for Touchstone. (Well, unless my memory is much worse than I think it is. )

 

[Peter_J]

You certainly have your own opinion

Slow down … Own opinion? Are we Catholics not really Vatican marionettes?

Just kidding.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Actually, William Tighe certainly knows Bishop Flemestad, since he even interviewed him for Touchstone. (Well, unless my memory is much worse than I think it is. )

Thanks for the info; here’s the link. touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=15-06-054-i

Once again, female ordination divides Lutherans but my hunch is that all Lutherans will eventually accept this development.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Slow down … Own opinion? Are we Catholics not really Vatican marionettes?

Just kidding.

What I find puzzling is that documents [e.g. Declaration] on the Holy See website seem to be contrary to what posters like PRmerger profess. And invariably there is an attempt to confute or minimize the Roman Curia by these Catholic posters. Odd behavior for those who speak of the infallibility of the Church so often.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Another Google search turned up about 220,000 sites in response to the query: “How many sacraments in the Lutheran church?”

See if any of them state that they no longer recognize only 2…

google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20many%20sacraments%20in%20the%20lutheran%20church

QED

The German Text of the Augsburg Confession 28, 5

The German text of A.C. 28, 5 refers not to “the distribution of the Body and Blood” of our Lord, but to “the distribution of the sacraments”—in the plural. (The German die Sakrament is plural.) According to the Lutheran Confessions, the sacraments include Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution,# and Holy Ordination, “if it is interpreted in relation to the ministry of the Word.”#
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

 

[PRmerger]

Remember your argument that Lutherans can not use the word “Catholic” in the ecumenical creeds?

Nope.

Please refresh me.

You don’t have to agree with the Declaration between Catholics and Lutherans even if it means you are out of sync with the Holy See.

Oh, I agree with the Declaration. I just don’t believe it says what you profess it says.

Nor do a multitude of posters here on the CAFs who have corrected you repeatedly.

I have hope that your church will one day be in union with mine.

But this union is not yet achieved.

And the fact that you cite this declaration as magisterial in authority, when we do not is but one small example of the disunity we have as Catholics and Lutherans.