C
CopticChristian
Guest
Protestant one,
I am asking you how is it Nathaniel was able to proclaim what he proclaimed by being told he was seen under a fig tree?
Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"
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I am asking you how is it Nathaniel was able to proclaim what he proclaimed by being told he was seen under a fig tree?
Z
Zooey
Guest
A smallish PSA:
A number of folks in this thread are using the same words to say different things, & using different words to say the same thing. Ergo, here comes this “Zooey” person with a translation:
Itwin ( like many other non- Catholics) uses the word “being a Christian” to mean what Catholics mean when you all say, " being in the state of grace".
So, when Itwin says a person may find him/herslef “not being a Christian at all”, the reference is to a person who, even though s/he is a baptized Christian, actually doesn’t believe in Christ, doesn’t trust in Christ, but wants to make a good impression on the neighbors. Or some such thing, & puts on a show of religiousity when others are looking.
And the Catholics in this thread are saying, that even though that person is, perhaps, a nonbeliever or at least someone with very little faith/hope/love, that the very fact of being baptized has put an indelible mark on the heart & soul. And that we can never tell who will, at some point in time, :newidea:respond to God’s calling, repent, & begin to :thumbsup:serve :bowdown2:Him Who to know aright is life eternal.:byzsoc:
Because He never gives up on us:extrahappy:…even when we are running as fast as possible in the opposite direction. That’s why Jesus went to the Cross of Calvary, you see:** He’s like that**.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
A number of folks in this thread are using the same words to say different things, & using different words to say the same thing. Ergo, here comes this “Zooey” person with a translation:
Itwin ( like many other non- Catholics) uses the word “being a Christian” to mean what Catholics mean when you all say, " being in the state of grace".
So, when Itwin says a person may find him/herslef “not being a Christian at all”, the reference is to a person who, even though s/he is a baptized Christian, actually doesn’t believe in Christ, doesn’t trust in Christ, but wants to make a good impression on the neighbors. Or some such thing, & puts on a show of religiousity when others are looking.
And the Catholics in this thread are saying, that even though that person is, perhaps, a nonbeliever or at least someone with very little faith/hope/love, that the very fact of being baptized has put an indelible mark on the heart & soul. And that we can never tell who will, at some point in time, :newidea:respond to God’s calling, repent, & begin to :thumbsup:serve :bowdown2:Him Who to know aright is life eternal.:byzsoc:
Because He never gives up on us:extrahappy:…even when we are running as fast as possible in the opposite direction. That’s why Jesus went to the Cross of Calvary, you see:** He’s like that**.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
A
AbideWithMe
Guest
Well said, Zooey. As I’ve read this thread over the past couple of days, the phrase, “What we have here, folks, is a failure to communicate” keeps coming to mind.A smallish PSA:
A number of folks in this thread are using the same words to say different things, & using different words to say the same thing. Ergo, here comes this “Zooey” person with a translation:
Itwin ( like many other non- Catholics) uses the word “being a Christian” to mean what Catholics mean when you all say, " being in the state of grace".
So, when Itwin says a person may find him/herslef “not being a Christian at all”, the reference is to a person who, even though s/he is a baptized Christian, actually doesn’t believe in Christ, doesn’t trust in Christ, but wants to make a good impression on the neighbors. Or some such thing, & puts on a show of religiousity when others are looking.
And the Catholics in this thread are saying, that even though that person is, perhaps, a nonbeliever or at least someone with very little faith/hope/love, that the very fact of being baptized has put an indelible mark on the heart & soul. And that we can never tell who will, at some point in time, :newidea:respond to God’s calling, repent, & begin to :thumbsup:serve :bowdown2:Him Who to know aright is life eternal.:byzsoc:
Because He never gives up on us:extrahappy:…even when we are running as fast as possible in the opposite direction. That’s why Jesus went to the Cross of Calvary, you see:** He’s like that**.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
A
AbideWithMe
Guest
Coptic–You made a couple of posts to me last night. I’m out till this evening; I’ll reply then.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Zoey,A smallish PSA:
A number of folks in this thread are using the same words to say different things, & using different words to say the same thing. Ergo, here comes this “Zooey” person with a translation:
Itwin ( like many other non- Catholics) uses the word “being a Christian” to mean what Catholics mean when you all say, " being in the state of grace".
So, when Itwin says a person may find him/herslef “not being a Christian at all”, the reference is to a person who, even though s/he is a baptized Christian, actually doesn’t believe in Christ, doesn’t trust in Christ, but wants to make a good impression on the neighbors. Or some such thing, & puts on a show of religiousity when others are looking.
And the Catholics in this thread are saying, that even though that person is, perhaps, a nonbeliever or at least someone with very little faith/hope/love, that the very fact of being baptized has put an indelible mark on the heart & soul. And that we can never tell who will, at some point in time, :newidea:respond to God’s calling, repent, & begin to :thumbsup:serve :bowdown2:Him Who to know aright is life eternal.:byzsoc:
Because He never gives up on us:extrahappy:…even when we are running as fast as possible in the opposite direction. That’s why Jesus went to the Cross of Calvary, you see:** He’s like that**.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
I know and understand this, lurkers may not. In order to ferret out all the stuff that we believe that is coming from this side or that, it is important for that person to explain. Your explanation points out the dilema and I still have yet to hear…
Where does this Faith come from?
Where does grace come from?
from Itwin, as Rescuers keep jumping in to clarify a conversation with Itwin…that is a distraction and not an aid…
thanks anyway…
Imagine someone having a conversation with another person, someone over hears and without knowing what the person asking the questions has in mind, believes they have something to offer…does it help or hinder the person asking the questions or does it serve the purpose of the interloper?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Abide,
While you are thinking…this notion of…
Real Christianity
Authentic Faith
True conversion
not a Christian anymore
Tension
Concern for false self
Masks
Hypocricy
Right reason
right action
and on, and on…are all Protestant in nature and have to do, in my opinion with an unsettled understanding of what it is I am to do, what it is I am to believe.
These are all judgements and make no sense to me
There is a dichotomy of what Faith means…is it what I believe or is it trust…and in my experience for the Protestants I speak to it boils down to trust…not for all. In the context of what I believe, these issues as to authenticity, tension, etc…the uneasiness never enters my mind…I believe in revealed truths…knowing this…no Catholic that accepts these truths and assents to the wisdom of the Church in these revealed truths never concerns themselves with these issues.
The Catechism is divided in 4 parts…the first part is
Profession of Faith, that includes…
I accept and believe everything here, as does every other Catholic Christian, knowing that it has served the Church for centuries and is authentic in every way. The notion of authenticity, true, adequate, tension never enter the mind…since I don’t have to figure out what it is I am to believe…
This guides me into the second part of the Catechism…Sacramental Life…that allows me to perform the
3rd part of the Catechism, Life in Christ…Have Life in Christ, model Christ, and this is where I posted the notion of Virtues and where the conversation seems to lie…how do I act…how is it I model Christ, how is it I conform to Christ to be transformed by Christ, how do I become moral, etc…and all the issues that are questioned as authentic, real, true, tension etc…
Since I accept the beliefs, accept the Sacraments as sources of grace and help in order to do,
Model Christ
Then there is never a question of authenticity, tension, real, true, etc because as you recall in my postings in purple…
Since I think and believe, based on revealed truths I never question, since I act on those revealed truths and accept them, as I model Christ, there is never any question or doubt about the reality, sincerity, authenticity and never any tension…
Since, in my opinion the Protestant mind never has surety there is always a concern…and if you search “authentic faith”…you find this…
garythomas.com/about
He also wrote a book. Notice that in defining “authentic faith” and teaching this faith…it is not the Bible alone…and that is what the OHCAC Church does…
Scripture, Church History, Christian Classics like the Church Fathers…authentic as it gets…
Now, there is a choice to make…read Gary Thomas and learn about Authentic Faith…or get hold of the Audio Catechism USA for Adults and learn Authentic Faith so you can know, think, believe and act…and never doubt…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Protestant one,
Your quest concerns me. I asked you about Nathaniel. You keep focusing on other than Nathaniel…
I asked you this…
I again ask you…
Nathaniel was spoken to by Philip…he asks
Can anything good come out of Nazareth…
Philip says come and see…
Jesus says…an Israelite in whom there is no deciet…
Nathaniel says…How do you know me
Jesus says, when you were under the fig tree I saw you
Nathaniel then declares, Rabbi, you are the son of God…
So, how is it when Jesus says I saw you under the fig tree, Nathaniel magically says…Rabbi, you are the son of God…the King of Israel…what caused Nathaniel to say this…not Jesus…
Can we go back to the question about Nathaniel and the fig tree?
J
jmcrae
Guest
That could only happen in a culture or a place where such activities evoked the praise of men.
We don’t live in such a culture, or such a time - indeed, one is at risk of being considered mentally ill, nowadays, or dangerously radical - it is an act of courage to pray in public; people get arrested for that these days - especially if you happen to be within a certain legally defined distance from a hospital, abortion clinic, or government office, at the time.
ETA: Also, the point was well made above, that the Pharisees were not doing good things to get praise from human beings; they were doing evil things secretly, and dressing the evil up in the clothing of piety - for example, stealing from the elderly was given a ritual name, and permitted in the name of God - a clear case of “taking the name of the Lord thy God in vain” if ever there was one - and they were making commerce in the Temple by declaring all animals “unclean” and forcing people to destroy the animals they had brought with them, and then purchase new ones in the Temple (giving profit to the Pharisees) - and using the area of the Temple that was supposed to have been reserved for quiet prayer by those who were in a process of converting to Judaism (a modern day equivalent would be, to host a bake sale in the RCIA classroom, and then tell those who had brought their lunch that they weren’t allowed to eat their lunch in there, but that they were required by law to buy a cake instead.)
Z
Zooey
Guest
I am only a
translator.I know that you know, but as you say, others reading this need to understand, so I translate for them.
God bless all here.:byzsoc::grouphug:
L
ltwin
Guest
We also live in a culture that is a collection of subcultures. And while the dominant culture of America and the West at large is secular and hostile to religious belief, there is (or are) a Christian subculture(s) in which it is beneficial to put on an outward show of religiosity, which is what I did because the circumstances that I was born into meant that I moved in almost exclusively Christian circles for most of my life before high school graduation. .
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Zooey,I am only a
I know that you know, but as you say, others reading this need to understand, so I translate for them.
God bless all here.:byzsoc::grouphug:
Are you self appointed translator or designated translator?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Itwin,
You have yet to tell me
Where and how do you get grace?
Where and how do you get Faith?
Keep Acting Like a Christian so you can Be one…
L
ltwin
Guest
It comes from God. Period.
L
ltwin
Guest
Grace comes from God. “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” Hearing the word of Christ is the means for faith, and faith is a conduit of grace.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Itwin,
We are back at the Spurgeon, as to what is grace, Ok.
Grace comes from God, Ok.
So we agree that we know what grace is, where it comes from…how do you get it?
So, you are saying that Faith comes by hearing someone say something. Be specific please.
You will get the gift of Faith by what?
L
ltwin
Guest
The words of Christ. Duh, Duh, Duh!!!
By hearing the words of Christ. Having heard them, there are two things you can do: believe (and all that encompasses) or not.
J
jmcrae
Guest
By Magic? Or what?
An analogy of the same series of questions, using “water” in place of “the grace of God.”
From where does water come?
“We get water from the river.” True, yes.
Next question: How do we get water from the river?
Answer (simplified, rather): The Hydro Company has pipes in the river through which it flows. It goes first through a system of purifiers before being directed to large tanks where it is stored, and where there are thousands of pipes from homes all over the city that draw water into their toilets and sinks. When the homeowner turns a knob, it opens the tap in his home that allows a small amount of water from the tank into his sink, so that he can use it for drinking and for washing.
Can you get water without involving the pipes or the Hydro Company?
Yes - you could carry a bucket to the river yourself, and take some - but you are on your own for making it pure, and for carrying it to your home, in that case.
So, again:
Where does grace come from?
Answer: From God. (Correct!
)**How does it get from God to the people who want it? **
For example: Is there a system of purifiers and pipes? Is there a Corporation that governs the purification and distribution of God’s grace? Or by what method does it get conveyed from God to those who want it?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Itwin,
Where do you hear the words of Christ? Audio cassette, someone reading from a book, tell me where…
What is the basis of your believing that this hearing causes two things? Is it in the Bible?
L
ltwin
Guest
If you hear the word of God preached and hear that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the father but by him, then there is only two things you can do: believe that Jesus is who he said he is and follow him or not.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Christ went back to Heaven in May of the year 33 AD. No one alive today has ever heard His voice directly (apart from private visions and the like, which have to be tested).
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