Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[AbideWithMe]

That is something that the individual has to work out and discern. No one is capable of “deciding” who is authentic and who is acting. The point of the phrase is not to decide for a person whether they are authentic or not. It is to provoke the hearer to examine themselves.

Abide,

In all my years, over 60 going to Church, I never heard anyone say…

look at Joe, he goes to Church, works with the poor, donates time to the missions, his wife gives clothes to the naked, and his children are respectful…

Oh, no, you don’t understand, he does it for the praise of men…

I have never ever, ever, ever, ever heard anyone in any Church I have ever attended heard anyone say that anyone is doing anything for the praise of anything…

I see and saw people doing…it is only the Protestant mind, having attended many Protestant services where others are concerned about others and what and why they do it…I have no idea where this comes from…it certainly is not of God…

Coptic, in all my 45 years of going to Evangelical services, I have also never heard anyone say what you’ve said above.

What I have heard, though, is what Itwin said in the quoted post…examine yourselves, don’t examine other people.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Right, but instead of rejecting the actions, you should embrace the actions and try to develop a matching attitude, rather than choosing instead to act on how you really feel, or to do nothing at all.

This is a very good point, Jmcrae. As an Evangelical, I’ve been taught this.

I don’t see any reason to think Itwin doesn’t know this also. I think he’s been trying to make a different point in response to Coptic’s original question to him about his signature line. If you and Coptic don’t understand what he’s talking about, then you don’t need to. It’s not a saying that’s meant for everyone. It makes sense to those who need to understand it.

 

[jmcrae]

My grandmother, bless her soul, said once, “I’m not a Christian. I’m a Catholic.” My family still laughs about it to this day.

This is what happens, unfortunately, when heretics co-opt the term “Christian” and make it refer to their particular brand of heresy.

 

[jmcrae]

This is a very good point, Jmcrae. As an Evangelical, I’ve been taught this.

I don’t see any reason to think Itwin doesn’t know this also. I think he’s been trying to make a different point in response to Coptic’s original question to him about his signature line. If you and Coptic don’t understand what he’s talking about, then you don’t need to. It’s not a saying that’s meant for everyone. It makes sense to those who need to understand it.

I get what he is driving at - but at the same time, “being” can be misunderstood (especially since we say that all human life is of value, simply for being - meaning, infants in the womb, people not in their right minds, people who are missing large portions of their minds and/or bodies, etc. - people who have little or no ability to “do” are valuable because they “be.”

Someone coming at it with that understanding of “being” would surely assume that no action, therefore, is required at all, even from those who are fully in their right minds, fully mature, and fully capable. It’s important that the message be made completely clear, so as to avoid confusion. (It’s not “clear” if someone has to be there to explain what it means.)

 

[AbideWithMe]

jmcrae;10340436:

That could only happen in a culture or a place where such activities evoked the praise of men.

**Exactly! And to expand on what Itwin said below: though, yes, you’re right that our larger cukture doesn’t value religious actions, there are subcultures within our larger culture where appearing religious will get a child (for my particular example) the praise and attention that children need. And so a clever child learns that acting religious is a good way to get more praise from the important people in his/her life. It doesn’t just happen in Christian families; it can be any religion. I’ve even seen it happen in New Age-y families. And it varies, again, in degree.

It need not be a sign of dysfunction in a family or religious subculture (though it can be). To illustrate with another, non-religious, example, I’ll use myself. My own family was fairly healthy. But, I had the sort of gifts that get a child extra attention—academic success and artistic talent. These things were highly valued in my family. My parents showed my sister, brother, and myself plenty of unconditional love. Nevertheless, sometimes**

I felt that what made me really worthwhile and worthy of attention just might be my giftedness. It wasn’t my parents’ fault–I made the incorrect connection on my own. So, as part of growing up, I had to learn that my value and identity never rested in my artistic talent. The “talented artist” was a mask for me at times. Sometimes (often, in fact) I did artwork for good reasons, but at other times, having done the work for its own sake, I later let it become a way to get praise from people.

While it may seem to you a tenuous connection to make between artistic/academic giftedness and religious precociousness leading someone to hide behind a certain identity, I think the same dynamic underlies both.

Jmcrae—My attempt at quoting came out weird the first time I wrote this. I’m re-posting this to make it clear that I’m responding to you, not Itwin.

Edit: Ugh, now it’s worse. Oh well. The bolded writing is from me; the first standard type is from Jmcrae.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I get what he is driving at - but at the same time, “being” can be misunderstood (especially since we say that all human life is of value, simply for being - meaning, infants in the womb, people not in their right minds, people who are missing large portions of their minds and/or bodies, etc. - people who have little or no ability to “do” are valuable because they “be.”

Someone coming at it with that understanding of “being” would surely assume that no action, therefore, is required at all, even from those who are fully in their right minds, fully mature, and fully capable. It’s important that the message be made completely clear, so as to avoid confusion. (It’s not “clear” if someone has to be there to explain what it means.)

True…well, I hope enough has been explained now to make it clear to most people!

 

[ltwin]

Right, but instead of rejecting the actions, you should embrace the actions and try to develop a matching attitude, rather than choosing instead to act on how you really feel, or to do nothing at all.

Putting on sackcloth and ashes was not the evil thing that the Pharisees did - stealing from the poor was the evil thing. They needed to continue to put on sackcloth and ashes - and maybe even do it more - and stop stealing from the poor, and actually fast, instead of just appearing to fast.

They would have been no further ahead if they had simply stopped putting on sackcloth and ashes, and simply stole from the poor openly and for all to see - that would not have been the proper solution to their problem. The solution was for them to stop stealing, and start fasting.

Where have I said to reject good actions? I think people are getting stuck on the word “acting.” The point is that “being” a Christian is both internal and external. If we’re only doing Christianity externally but if we’re missing the internal component then we’re not “being” Christians we are simply “acting” like Christians. Nothing in the phrase suggests to stop “doing” good.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

Faith is a gift. I cannot for the life of me understand how it is you believe you received this gift.

I’ve already told you. I heard the Jesus’ message, and in hearing the message I got faith and believed. You may not agree with this but there it is.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic–You say you have no interest in discrediting the Shalom Place forum. But here you do…you talk about it as psychobabble and nonsense and say it does not support the Faith. I’d hate to see what you’d say about a group you do want to discredit.

Shalom Place forum is hosted by the Dominican Sisters of Peace. The SP moderator, Phil, runs their internet ministry; the forum is mostly to offer support for Christian contemplative practice.

I’m kind of disgusted at the way you dismissed fellow Catholics without taking the time to understand what you were talking about…so much for brotherly love.

Abide,

I don’t discredit them. They serve a purpose, not necessarily apologetics and understanding the Faith…rather they are a magnet for dysfunction and PTL…someone has to do it…notice all the resources they have…glad they are doing it…it isn’t a place I would send someone looking into trying to find out about Catholocism…it is a place for people with problems and perhaps if they had problems it is better than Alanon or others like that.

 

[CopticChristian]

Where have I said to reject good actions? I think people are getting stuck on the word “acting.” The point is that “being” a Christian is both internal and external. If we’re only doing Christianity externally but if we’re missing the internal component then we’re not “being” Christians we are simply “acting” like Christians. Nothing in the phrase suggests to stop “doing” good.

Itwin,

This is close to unsanity. Someone is being Christian externally?

Joe goes to RCIA, learns the Faith…has to wait a year to get Baptized, Confirmed and then is allowed after much study to enter the Church…then he studies the Catechism…and learns

Profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ…Essentially this is where the Protestant focus is as you dialogue
Pray

So one day Joe is at Church and someone says…aren’t you glad Joe is in the Church…oh, no…did you not know…he is just externally a Christian…

Say Wah…

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve already told you. I heard the Jesus’ message, and in hearing the message I got faith and believed. You may not agree with this but there it is.

Itwin,

So it is your belief, that you got Faith just through the act of hearing…this brings into question…

What if someone is deaf…can they get Faith?

What if someone is deaf and blind…can they get Faith?

What if someone is deaf, blind and has no fingers or toes…can they get Faith?

In order for this to work it has to work for all people and your paradigm fails here…

You got Faith when you were Baptized and each and every one of those examples above get Faith when they are Baptized…

So, I suggest you stop acting like a Christian and start acting as a Christian so you can be one…

 

[CopticChristian]

True…well, I hope enough has been explained now to make it clear to most people!

Abide,

Seems like you and Zoey are in the same boat looking for clarity…I want truth and understanding, not clarity. I want feedback as all communication is feedback. Forget Clarity until we get truth and understanding…

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

So it is your belief, that you got Faith just through the act of hearing…this brings into question…

What if someone is deaf…can they get Faith?

What if someone is deaf and blind…can they get Faith?

What if someone is deaf, blind and has no fingers or toes…can they get Faith?

In order for this to work it has to work for all people and your paradigm fails here…

You got Faith when you were Baptized and each and every one of those examples above get Faith when they are Baptized…

So, I suggest you stop acting like a Christian and start acting as a Christian so you can be one…

I was baptized when I was 20 years old. I had faith long before then.

And baptism works no better for the deaf, blind, or those who are deaf, blind, and have no fingers or toes. If they have no way of comprehending the gospel through their senses, then baptizing them will still leave them uncomprehending the gospel, in which case they have nothing to place faith in even if they are baptized.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

This is close to unsanity. Someone is being Christian externally?

Joe goes to RCIA, learns the Faith…has to wait a year to get Baptized, Confirmed and then is allowed after much study to enter the Church…then he studies the Catechism…and learns

Profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ…Essentially this is where the Protestant focus is as you dialogue
Pray

So one day Joe is at Church and someone says…aren’t you glad Joe is in the Church…oh, no…did you not know…he is just externally a Christian…

Say Wah…

Bobby is a lifelong Christian, and he is such a wonderful member of the parish. He’s baptized, confirmed, and thinking of joining the priesthood or diaconate or whatever. He’s read the Catechism like a hundred times. Unbeknownst to everyone, Bobby is a murderer! GASP! External Christian? Of course not, he’s such a nice person on Sunday and he goes to Confession whenever the door’s open. And what’s a murder or two if no one knows about it, eh? Bobby looks like a Christian, he talks like a Christian, and he acts like a Christian. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck I guess it is a duck.

We can make hypothetical stories of Joe and Bobby all day long. We can even switch it up to Marsha and Cindy if we get bored.

 

[CopticChristian]

Bobby is a lifelong Christian, and he is such a wonderful member of the parish. He’s baptized, confirmed, and thinking of joining the priesthood or diaconate or whatever. He’s read the Catechism like a hundred times. Unbeknownst to everyone, Bobby is a murderer! GASP! External Christian? Of course not, he’s such a nice person on Sunday and he goes to Confession whenever the door’s open. And what’s a murder or two if no one knows about it, eh? Bobby looks like a Christian, he talks like a Christian, and he acts like a Christian. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck I guess it is a duck.

We can make hypothetical stories of Joe and Bobby all day long. We can even switch it up to Marsha and Cindy if we get bored.

Itwin,

Who told you about Marsha and Cindy. I thought that was kept underwraps.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

Who told you about Marsha and Cindy. I thought that was kept underwraps.

Someone wise once said, what’s done in darkness will come to light

 

[1protestant]

Protestant one,

You answer with this

Can we go back to the question about Nathaniel and the fig tree?

hey really – do you want me to ask you a question?

when jesus said to peter – “you will deny me three times before the roster will crow”

how do you think he was able to prophecy that event-- ??

1. did he see the future?
   2.did he hear peter denying him 3 times?
2. did he just majic-ly know?
3. did he have a “dream” like joseph in the O.T. ?

and on that note-- catholics do get dreams of future events and warnings-- one teacher i know of is john paul jackson, he’s been in ministry 30 years… and has an interesting testemony on how God entered him into ministry

the bible is full of dreams , visions, and the prophetic

 

[pablope]

hey really – do you want me to ask you a question?

and on that note-- catholics do get dreams of future events and warnings–

 

[CopticChristian]

hey really – do you want me to ask you a question?

when jesus said to peter – “you will deny me three times before the roster will crow”

how do you think he was able to prophecy that event-- ??

1. did he see the future?
   2.did he hear peter denying him 3 times?
2. did he just majic-ly know?
3. did he have a “dream” like joseph in the O.T. ?

and on that note-- catholics do get dreams of future events and warnings-- one teacher i know of is john paul jackson, he’s been in ministry 30 years… and has an interesting testemony on how God entered him into ministry

the bible is full of dreams , visions, and the prophetic

One Protestant,

What was significant that allowed Nathaniel to make the claim he made?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

I don’t discredit them. They serve a purpose, not necessarily apologetics and understanding the Faith…rather they are a magnet for dysfunction and PTL…someone has to do it…notice all the resources they have…glad they are doing it…it isn’t a place I would send someone looking into trying to find out about Catholocism…it is a place for people with problems and perhaps if they had problems it is better than Alanon or others like that.

Coptic–What is PTL?

You’ve repeatedly pronounced your assessment of Heartland Center for Spirituality and Shalom Place, its internet ministry. You say it doesn’t have as its purpose “understanding the Faith”, but that “rather they are a magnet for dysfunction and PTL”. That’s about as accurate as someone perusing CAF and announcing it’s a magnet for dysfunction because it has a group for people with OCD and it has members who often ask questions about dealing with their scrupulosity or porn addiction.

As I said before, Heartland Center is a retreat center run by the Dominican Sisters of Peace. Its internet ministry is Shalom Place. Both Heartland and SP are focused on providing teaching and support for Christian contemplative practice. Their purpose indeed is “understanding the Faith”. Here, under “web site resources” you can find their online bookstore: shalomplace.com/books/index.html. As you can see, with few exceptions the books are from well-known Catholic authors who write about Christian spirituality.

Below the bookstore on “web site resources” is “A Daily Spiritual Seed”: “This daily (M-F) email message provides information, guidance and support on Christian contemplative spirituality using quotes from writers on Christian mysticism… Some of the authors quoted are St. John of the Cross, Thomas Merton, St. Theresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich, Evelyn Underhill, Bede Griffiths, Thomas Keating, St. Bernard of Clairvaux and many others.” With the exception of Underhill, all these authors are Catholic. How then, Coptic, is this not for the purpose of “understanding the Faith”?

A little further down the “web site resources” is the part you linked to earlier, “online resources”. On that page, the central and larger column is taken up by books and discussions on Christian spirituality such as Jesus is Risen , to give just one example. You, however, apparently latched onto one small part of SP’s offerings, on the side column where some papers on co-dependency, etc. are listed. Right below those are “Spirituality and Metaphysics” articles, with topics headed by a brief introduction to lectio divina. You seemed to have ignored the great majority of offerings from SP and Heartland and mistaken a peripheral topic for their central focus.

Edit: I wanted to add that I’ve been a reader of SP’s material for over four years, so I do know what I’m talking about.