Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[ltwin]

However, when a Christian does good things, he doesn’t have to worry that he’s “not a Christian” because his motives for doing good things might not be completely pure. He remains a Christian as long as he is a baptized person who affirms the Creed and does his best to do what he thinks God would have him do.

And again, if you were doing good things, then the reason was that it was important to do good things because … (whatever) - and because Jesus expects it - and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. It’s always okay to do good things!

I don’t think anyone should ever be encouraged to stop doing good things because we think their motives might not be pure enough. Any motive that results in good is most likely to be good enough and people can build from there.

I’m not saying to stop doing good because you don’t have all your mess together. And I’m not advocating that people have hyper-obsession over if what they do will be acceptable to God because they’re not perfect.

What I am saying is that if we do a lot of things that are good without maintaining a closeness and familiarity with God and a passion for what God is passionate about, then we will be running on our own energy and ability and drive. In such a case, a person may very well live an exemplary life in public, but fall into besetting and entangling sin in private. They will not be consistent in their Christian life because it is not rooted in love and passion for God. In the words of Christine Caine, they don’t have a strong spiritual core and they could end up acting like a Christian some of the time while never being a Christian all of the time, because Christianity is about a transformation and conversion of ourselves into the image of Christ. If we only get the outward part right and ignore the inward part, then we have missed the point.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s a matter of the degree of “false self” influence and control in one’s life. A person who has generally good mental health will not only be less influenced by their false self, they will be more aware of when their false self is seeking to influence them. I think this is what Itwin is talking about—he’s normal, he’s maturing (he seems to me more mature than the majority of college students or 20-somethings I know) and he’s becoming more aware of when his false self is in action…and he’s choosing to be more authentic.

The Catholic spiritual director who wrote the questionnaire in the link has led many retreats and has been a full time spiritual director for many years. He considers false self problems to be common–again, to greatly varying degrees.

Abide,

You are fooling yourself into believing that this is common place…this is from the Resource of this person’s website…

Codependency and Relationships
What is Codependency?
Checklist of Codependent Behaviors
Codependency Recovery Guidelines
Dependency Attitudes and Behavior
Enabling Behavior
Essential Symptoms of Codependency
Boundaries in Relationships
The Roles People Play

Addiction and the False Self
The Nature of Addictions
The Nature of Attachments
Origin of the False Self System
Characteristics of the False Self System
How to Drop an Attachment or Addiction
The Two Ways to Grow

Look at this part of the Resource list for origins of the False Self…it is related to dysfunction and dysfunctional thinking…it is akin to Transactional Analysis and the Games People Play.

shalomplace.com/res/orgfss.html

I don’t care how many retreats this person has led. You may want to believe that this notion of False self translates into every day parlance…it does not…

Who am I?

I am a created being?

What am I?

I am a Child of God, being Baptized in the Trinitarian formula

What is my role in life?

To

Profess my Faith
Live a Sacramental Life
Model Christ, learn Life in Christ and be Holy as God is Holy
Pray and ask for help…

Is there anything false about this?

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

You have in your mind thoughts that are imagined or experienced/retrieved through memory…these elements are what cause you to express to the world what it is you think and feel by your speech and actions…there is nothing else we can do…

In other words in our heads…Thinking/Feeling

In the World Speech/Behavior is an indication of the aforementioned…

So with that in mind…

To be something you must profess something, you must live someway, look to be something and of course consider you need help to do it…this is how I see Christianity and I can profess that in more formal terms however… **

This I shall expand on later…with my true self…

 

[AbideWithMe]

Perhaps you’ve never experienced this, but I have. I grew up in church all my life, and I’ve always maintained outward expectations for what Christians should do. But I have not always sought within myself to do all of this out of my love for God. …A lot of the good things I did I did out of a need to please people and a need to be praised for what I did.Perhaps I’m a horrible person and more selfish than most people from the reactions that I’m getting on this thread, but I don’t think that. I think many people go through the same things I have went though-Acting like a Christian but not being one.

Itwin, you’re perfectly normal, despite the reactions you’re getting on this thread. I think Coptic has forgotten what the growing-up process is like, and the normal struggles of people coming into making their parents’ faith more fully their own. Learning to do things not for the praise of men (our parents, teachers, friends, etc) or fear of men but to please God is a life-long process, but I think for some of us there’s a time when we hopefully learn this distinction in a radical way.

I’m impressed by your maturity and your ability to articulate your thoughts ( not that you wrote anything to impress anybody…).

 

[AbideWithMe]

Jmcrae,

It is a site for someone that has an eclectic approach to things like Addiction, CoDependency and other problems…it is not a site for those that want to learn the Faith…it attracts people with problems and for that we should understand that if it is valuable to someone, then that someone has problems and we should respect that.

I am not a fan of Co-dependence as it leans on the 12 step model of Addiction and this notion of False self has to do with troubled people.

It reminds me of the MMPI, with “often” and “frequently”…

When people are mentally challenged it may provide solace. For my money get hold of the Audio Catechism for Adults USA, $42.00…spend some time there and avoid all the psyhobabble…false self, Chakras, hypocrites and get on board lil chillin…room for many a more…

Coptic—What a dismissive attitude. You amaze me…apparently your world can be divided into two categories— 100% perfectly normal and 100% mentally challenged and problem-ridden.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not saying to stop doing good because you don’t have all your mess together. And I’m not advocating that people have hyper-obsession over if what they do will be acceptable to God because they’re not perfect.

What I am saying is that if we do a lot of things that are good without maintaining a closeness and familiarity with God and a passion for what God is passionate about, then we will be running on our own energy and ability and drive. In such a case, a person may very well live an exemplary life in public, but fall into besetting and entangling sin in private. They will not be consistent in their Christian life because it is not rooted in love and passion for God. In the words of Christine Caine, they don’t have a strong spiritual core and they could end up acting like a Christian some of the time while never being a Christian all of the time, because Christianity is about a transformation and conversion of ourselves into the image of Christ. If we only get the outward part right and ignore the inward part, then we have missed the point.

I would much rather see someone “being a Christian” some of the time rather than not at all. I’d rather see hypocrites (part-time Christians) filling the pews every Sunday morning, than staying away from Church because they don’t think they are “worthy” of God’s grace and forgiveness. “Sainthood” doesn’t mean perfection - it just means that we went to Confession to repent and be forgiven once more often than we sinned - that we got up once more often than we fell down.

 

[CopticChristian]

AbideWithMe:
Abide,

I don’t know how you found this site. It is a site for people that have dysfunction. If this is your issue I understand. It does not translate to the world experience and is related to those with problems. If you have problems, you have my prayers, if you found this site believing it was just a Christian retreat center, it is not…look…

Codependency and Relationships
What is Codependency?
Checklist of Codependent Behaviors
Codependency Recovery Guidelines
Dependency Attitudes and Behavior
Enabling Behavior
Essential Symptoms of Codependency
Boundaries in Relationships
The Roles People Play

Addiction and the False Self
The Nature of Addictions
The Nature of Attachments
Origin of the False Self System
Characteristics of the False Self System
How to Drop an Attachment or Addiction
The Two Ways to Grow

Look at this part of the Resource list for origins of the False Self…it is related to dysfunction and dysfunctional thinking…it is akin to Transactional Analysis and the Games People Play.

shalomplace.com/res/orgfss.html

This site does not translate to other than dysfunctional thinking…

 

[AbideWithMe]

I would much rather see someone “being a Christian” some of the time rather than not at all. I’d rather see hypocrites (part-time Christians) filling the pews every Sunday morning, than staying away from Church because they don’t think they are “worthy” of God’s grace and forgiveness. “Sainthood” doesn’t mean perfection - it just means that we went to Confession to repent and be forgiven once more often than we sinned - that we got up once more often than we fell down.

Well said. But I think Itwin is making a different point.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic—What a dismissive attitude. You amaze me…apparently your world can be divided into two categories— 100% perfectly normal and 100% mentally challenged and problem-ridden.

Abide,

This is CAF, you brought this site to a CAF and here it is intended that as Catholics we discuss the Faith and provide defense of the Faith…

False self and the source you brought is not relevant to the discussion, it is only relevant to the dysfunctional world that the site addresses. I pray for those people, I have experienced those people, and I try to avoid those people…

I am real, I relate to real and I expect others to be real…I have little patience for psychobabble and nonsense when it comes to

Profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ
Prayer

thank you…

 

[jmcrae]

Totally missed the point of what I was saying. I’m not talking about that.

I’m talking about simply questioning why we do the things we do. I can do it. I sit down, and examine myself. Often this occurs when I’ve listened to a sermon or just anything that God uses to grab my attention, and I find that in what I have done and why I’ve done them I have not been following Christ.

This is called an “examination of conscience” - it’s important to do this every day.

A good time to do it is just before bed, since you can examine your day and see where you need to improve. If you have anything that you need to go to Confession for, you can make a mental note of it, and plan to go to Confession at the next reasonable opportunity.

You shouldn’t wait until something “grabs your attention” - this should be part of your normal spiritual exercises every day.

 

[ltwin]

I would much rather see someone “being a Christian” some of the time rather than not at all. I’d rather see hypocrites (part-time Christians) filling the pews every Sunday morning, than staying away from Church because they don’t think they are “worthy” of God’s grace and forgiveness. “Sainthood” doesn’t mean perfection - it just means that we went to Confession to repent and be forgiven once more often than we sinned - that we got up once more often than we fell down.

Once again, I think you’re still missing my point. If we fail to cultivate an inner spiritual life, and instead cultivate an outer spiritual life because that is what people will see, and if such an inconsistency goes on for any length of time, then we can possibly fall into a situation where we’re not a Christian at all. The reason for this is that the things we do have to come out of what we are passionate about. If we fail to cultivate the love of Christ and passion to do his will, then we will not be able to sustain our walk with God. If we don’t even get to know the person we’re walking beside, are we really walking with him?

 

[CopticChristian]

Well said. But I think Itwin is making a different point.

Abide,

You may want to go back and see your routinely intervening and defending Itwin. Itwin can speak for Itwin. This is part of the dysfunction of Rescuing…you need not concern yourself with rescuing Itwin, defending Itwin, and speaking for Itwin…speak for yourself…

You may not be aware of this, I bring it to your attention in consideration of your bringing the notion of false self and the other dysfunctions to the conversation…

 

[ltwin]

This is called an “examination of conscience” - it’s important to do this every day.

A good time to do it is just before bed, since you can examine your day and see where you need to improve. If you have anything that you need to go to Confession for, you can make a mental note of it, and plan to go to Confession at the next reasonable opportunity.

You shouldn’t wait until something “grabs your attention” - this should be part of your normal spiritual exercises every day.

I do this every day. When I spoke of something grabbing my attention, I was speaking in the context of me being in a spiritual malaise at the time. Something caught my attention and God used that to wake me up.

But yes, we should examine our conscience everyday, which is all I’m really asking us to do, that and truly seek a deeper love for God and greater awareness of God and a greater fullness of our life in and with God. Such a relationship will empower our Christian activity and energize it and give it sustainability.

 

[CopticChristian]

Once again, I think you’re still missing my point. If we fail to cultivate an inner spiritual life, and instead cultivate an outer spiritual life because that is what people will see, and if such an inconsistency goes on for any length of time**, then we can possibly fall into a situation where we’re not a Christian at all. **The reason for this is that the things we do have to come out of what we are passionate about. If we fail to cultivate the love of Christ and passion to do his will, then we will not be able to sustain our walk with God. If we don’t even get to know the person we’re walking beside, are we really walking with him?

Itwin,

Here we have a point of concern…earlier you said this…

What we do does not define our Christian life.

What defines us as Christains is what Christ has done for us.

and here you say it is possible not to be a Christian…

How is it I am defined by what Christ has done?

Define for me how one becomes a Christian, how one remains a Christian and how one stops being a Christian from your perspective.

 

[jmcrae]

Once again, I think you’re still missing my point. If we fail to cultivate an inner spiritual life, and instead cultivate an outer spiritual life because that is what people will see, and if such an inconsistency goes on for any length of time, then we can possibly fall into a situation where we’re not a Christian at all. The reason for this is that the things we do have to come out of what we are passionate about. If we fail to cultivate the love of Christ and passion to do his will, then we will not be able to sustain our walk with God. If we don’t even get to know the person we’re walking beside, are we really walking with him?

I don’t think it’s physically possible to avoid cultivating an inner spiritual life, without at the same time cultivating an outward spiritual life.

How would a person pray three times a day, examine his conscience every day, go to Mass every Sunday, go to Confession as needed, and do the works of mercy at every opportunity, without at the same time reorganizing his inner life, and orienting it toward Christ?

I simply don’t see how that’s possible - either you would stop living the spiritual life altogether, or you would be inwardly transformed by these outward actions. It would not be possible to pray by rote, do good deeds by rote, and go to Confession by rote, without either becoming bored to tears and quitting it altogether, or letting it take hold of you and change you.

 

[1protestant]

With all due respect, never have I suggested that you or I read minds. You seem to suggest that anyone who observes human nature and their own spiritual condition must be projecting that outside of themselves. I’m not asking for you to judge anyone but yourself. You are the only one capable of determining whether you are acting like a Christian or being one. It’s a phrase that should provoke an individual to think about and assess their own spiritual condition.

I take people at face value as well. But that doesn’t mean I deny human nature, and that I live in denial about human nature and the potential that all people have for gaining glory, honor, attention, power and influence for themselves. This is a fact. People do it. Acknowledging human nature is not concerning yourself with other people, it is acknowledging that you yourself are a person and capable of doing what all human beings can possibly do.

We are talking about what it means to be a Christian. Christians are people. How should we talk about the inward and outward dimensions of being a Christian without talking about hypothetical people who are Christians???

So, what is your answer? Do you think that right motives are important or not?

I say this with humility. First, in order for you to understand what I’m saying, it may be necessary for you to step back and reread our conversation without assuming that I’m judging people or reading people’s minds or not taking people at face value. I’m not accusing people of not being Christians. I’m not spending my time looking for clues whether other people are Christians or not. I do examine myself, and I seek to be purified and refined inwardly so that I can show true godliness outwardly. That’s what I do. If that offends people then too bad.

I’m not sure you get me either, and I don’t know what more I can do to help you understand.

Read mind’s no – but see visions

i believe that everyone out-side of the catholic church is a protestant-- but those in the christian church do not view themselves as protesting-- against the scriptures

–and the word christian is is generally defined as “an anointed one with the anointing”

and christians believe they are led by the H.S. and will hear and get instruction as demenstrated in the scripture
47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”

48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “*I saw you while you were still under the fig tree *before Philip called you.

(note Jesus had a vision or waking dream about nathanael)”

49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

50 Jesus said, “You believe[h] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you,* you[j] will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’[k] the Son of Man.”

and as St paul said-- in Romans 8 - if you don’;t have the H.S. then you are not part of the body*

 

[CopticChristian]

I do this every day. When I spoke of something grabbing my attention, I was speaking in the context of me being in a spiritual malaise at the time. Something caught my attention and God used that to wake me up.

But yes, we should examine our conscience everyday, which is all I’m really asking us to do, that and truly seek a deeper love for God and greater awareness of God and a greater fullness of our life in and with God. Such a relationship will empower our Christian activity and energize it and give it sustainability.

Itwin,

Here we have a point of agreement with different understanding that relates to what I have posted previously…

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

You have in your mind thoughts that are imagined or experienced/retrieved through memory…these elements are what cause you to express to the world what it is you think and feel by your speech and actions…there is nothing else we can do…

In other words in our heads…Thinking/Feeling

In the World Speech/Behavior is an indication of the aforementioned…

So with that in mind…

To be something you must profess something, you must live someway, look to be something and of course consider you need help to do it…this is how I see Christianity and I can profess that in more formal terms however… **

Protestants lack the fullness of Faith, we believe Protestants are fully Christian by virtue of Baptsm, the Theoologic Virtues of Faith Hope and Charity…

As we think and believe so we act…notice that while we/Catholics recite and believe the entirety of this profession of Faith…you more than likely deny that in red and…

We believe (I believe ) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begottenSon of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God ) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for usmen and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man ; was crucified also for us underPontius Pilate, suffered and wasburied ; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe ) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son ), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by theProphets. **And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. **And we look for (I look for) theresurrection of the dead and thelife of the world to come. Amen."

You act based on your belief…The Deposit of Faith is outlined in the Catechism in 4 parts…

Profession of Faith…as noted above
Sacramental Life…we all agree that you, having been Baptized have participated in the Sacrament of Baptism…however your denial of that portion in red excuses you from the Sacrament of Reconcilliation/Examination of Conscience and a source of Grace…

The Examination of Conscience is integral to the Sacrament of Reconciliation insofar as it is intended that with that act of confessing there is a repentance=change of mind to correct and not perform those acts confessed…this is more than just lifiting my eyes up in my bedroom and saying “God forgive me”

this then allows for a firm committment to what you have been focusing on and what I pointed out concerning Virtues from the Catechism

Life in Christ, modeling Christ, following Christ, living Morally, using the gifts, grace, acting and pursuing Holiness

and then asking for help

Prayer…

So, the examination of conscience is more than just thinking about your day, reading a book and rasing your eyes…it is a Sacramental effort and a Sacramental action…with firm intention to grow with grace in the walk towards Holiness…

 

[ltwin]

Define for me how one becomes a Christian, how one remains a Christian and how one stops being a Christian from your perspective.

To become a Christian, we believe that Jesus is the way, truth, and life. We believe that he loves us and gave his life for us. We recognize him as our Lord and Savior. We ask him to forgive us of our sins. We obey him by turning away from sin and doing what he requires of us.

To remain a Christian, we continue to have faith who he is and what he has done. We continue to to confess our sins and ask him to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And we continue to obey him by turning away from sin and doing what he requires of us, growing and learning as we continue to walk with the Lord. We basically continue doing what we did when we became a Christian, but we mature as time goes on.

If we are not allowing ourselves to be changed by Christ, if we are not letting him change us on the inside, if we continue to sin and do not repent and do not allow him to sanctify us, then I do think there comes a point when we have severed our faith in Christ and rejected him. I have experienced such a state, and thank God that he drew me back to him and melted my heart of stone. I had fallen away and shipwrecked my faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

Read mind’s no – but see visions

i believe that everyone out-side of the catholic church is a protestant-- but those in the christian church do not view themselves as protesting-- against the scriptures

–and the word christian is is generally defined as “an anointed one with the anointing”

and christians believe they are led by the H.S. and will hear and get instruction as demenstrated in the scripture
47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”

48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “*I saw you while you were still under the fig tree *before Philip called you.

(note Jesus had a vision or waking dream about nathanael)”
49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

50 Jesus said, “You believe[h] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you,* you[j] will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’[k] the Son of Man.”

and as St paul said-- in Romans 8 - if you don’;t have the H.S. then you are not part of the body*

Protestant one,

How is it you came to believe that Jesus had a vision as you declare?

and what is it you believe was so profound about being seen under a fig tree that Nathaniel declared…

You are the Son of God, the King of Isreal…

Please give me your profound insight…

 

[ltwin]

I don’t think it’s physically possible to avoid cultivating an inner spiritual life, without at the same time cultivating an outward spiritual life.

How would a person pray three times a day, examine his conscience every day, go to Mass every Sunday, go to Confession as needed, and do the works of mercy at every opportunity, without at the same time reorganizing his inner life, and orienting it toward Christ?

I simply don’t see how that’s possible - either you would stop living the spiritual life altogether, or you would be inwardly transformed by these outward actions. It would not be possible to pray by rote, do good deeds by rote, and go to Confession by rote, without either becoming bored to tears and quitting it altogether, or letting it take hold of you and change you.

Yes, if we only act like a Christian we will eventually get bored or unsatisfied and quit. That’s part of the problem.

There are also a lot of Christians who haven’t reached the point of quitting. They do what they think is required of them and are satisfied with that. To most people, they live ok lives, and they are good to other people, and they go to church.

 

[CopticChristian]

To become a Christian, we **believe **that Jesus is the way, truth, and life. We believe that he loves us and gave his life for us. We recognize him as our Lord and Savior. We ask him to forgive us of our sins. We obey him by turning away from sin and doing what he requires of us.

To remain a Christian, we continue to have **faith **who he is and what he has done. We continue to to confess our sins and ask him to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And we continue to obey him by turning away from sin and doing what he requires of us, growing and learning as we continue to walk with the Lord. We basically continue doing what we did when we became a Christian, but we mature as time goes on.

If we are not allowing ourselves to be changed by Christ, if we are not letting him change us on the inside, if we continue to sin and do not repent and do not allow him to sanctify us, then I do think there comes a point when we have severed our faith in Christ and rejected him. I have experienced such a state, and thank God that he drew me back to him and melted my heart of stone. I had fallen away and shipwrecked my faith.

Itwin,

Where and how do you get this ability to “believe”.

Where and how do you get this Faith?