Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

I don’t know how you found this site. It is a site for people that have dysfunction. If this is your issue I understand. It does not translate to the world experience and is related to those with problems. If you have problems, you have my prayers, if you found this site believing it was just a Christian retreat center, it is not…look…

Look at this part of the Resource list for origins of the False Self…it is related to dysfunction and dysfunctional thinking…it is akin to Transactional Analysis and the Games People Play.

shalomplace.com/res/orgfss.html

This site does not translate to other than dysfunctional thinking…

Coptic—I found the Shalom Place forum a number of years ago while doing a Google search for a Christian review of some popular New Age books by Eckhart Tolle. His books came up for discussion in an equestrian forum I was part of, and after I read the books, the SP review threads gave the best critique of them I found anywhere.

I have a great deal of respect for Phil, the SP moderator. Phil and the many other Catholics I met on the SP forum are what made me curious to learn more about Catholicism, since I know very, very few devout Catholics out of the Catholics I know in real life. Phil and others at SP have been instrumental in bringing a good number of non-practicing cradle Catholics back to their faith. I wouldn’t have your attitude towards him if I were you, Coptic.

FWIW, I don’t have any real emotional or mental problems, though I do have the normal struggles most people have. I had a tendency when I was a young to slightly dissociative periods lasting a few minutes because I had a speech impediment as a child, and it was too deeply painful to stay fully “present” in my own skin if my “abnormality” was exposed in, say, a classroom where I had to read out loud. The SP forum helped me understand better what I was experiencing as child. If I did have serious mental health problems, though, I wouldn’t be ashamed of it. Life can be rough, and I admire people who struggle with their problems and still try to trust God.

Coptic, I’m aware of your views on things such as psychology, and I don’t expect you’ll change them, but I suggest less talk against fellow Catholics who do much good.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic—I found the Shalom Place forum a number of years ago while doing a Google search for a Christian review of some popular New Age books by Eckhart Tolle. His books came up for discussion in an equestrian forum I was part of, and after I read the books, the SP review threads gave the best critique of them I found anywhere.

I have a great deal of respect for Phil, the SP moderator. Phil and the many other Catholics I met on the SP forum are what made me curious to learn more about Catholicism, since I know very, very few devout Catholics out of the Catholics I know in real life. Phil and others at SP have been instrumental in bringing a good number of non-practicing cradle Catholics back to their faith. I wouldn’t have your attitude towards him if I were you, Coptic.

FWIW, I don’t have any real emotional or mental problems, though I do have the normal struggles most people have. I had a tendency when I was a young to slightly dissociative periods lasting a few minutes because I had a speech impediment as a child, and it was too deeply painful to stay fully “present” in my own skin if my “abnormality” was exposed in, say, a classroom where I had to read out loud. The SP forum helped me understand better what I was experiencing as child. If I did have serious mental health problems, though, I wouldn’t be ashamed of it. Life can be rough, and I admire people who struggle with their problems and still try to trust God.

Coptic, I’m aware of your views on things such as psychology, and I don’t expect you’ll change them, but I suggest less talk against fellow Catholics who do much good.

Abide,

I am not a fan of Eckhart Tolle or New Age in particular. If anyone wanders there for any reason other than curiosity I would dissuade them. There is a document called Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life concerning the New Age, I suggest you and others read if they find Eckart Tolle and any New Age interesting and provocative…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”

I have no interest in crediting or discrediting the SP forum. If it brought you here, Ok. It is not a place for apologetics and that is what the CAF is. It serves a purpose. You brought this to the CAF. You thought the notion of “false self” was relevant. It is relevant to dysfunction and if there is dysfunction it should be eradicated.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

Where and how do you get this ability to “believe”.

Where and how do you get this Faith?

The grace of God, firstly. But God’s grace is not irresistible. God can be rebuffed.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

You may want to go back and see your routinely intervening and defending Itwin. Itwin can speak for Itwin. This is part of the dysfunction of Rescuing…you need not concern yourself with rescuing Itwin, defending Itwin, and speaking for Itwin…speak for yourself…

You may not be aware of this, I bring it to your attention in consideration of your bringing the notion of false self and the other dysfunctions to the conversation…

Coptic—That’s a nice bit of playing armchair internet psychologist, but no, I’m not intervening and trying to rescue Itwin. I recognize he’s more than capable of taking care of himself, and more articulate than me, in fact.

Jmcrae wrote a good post, and I was acknowledging that she had some good points. However, I simultaneously wanted to acknowledge that Itwin was making a different point. So…that’s what I wrote. No need for analysis of it. I wrote what I meant.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

I am not a fan of Eckhart Tolle or New Age in particular.

Well, we agree on something.

 

[ltwin]

So, the examination of conscience is more than just thinking about your day, reading a book and rasing your eyes…it is a Sacramental effort and a Sacramental action…with firm intention to grow with grace in the walk towards Holiness…

Are you implying that when I examine my conscience I’m simply “thinking about your day, reading a book and rasing your eyes.” I assure you that I am not.

 

[CopticChristian]

The grace of God, firstly. But God’s grace is not irresistible. God can be rebuffed.

Itwin,

How do you get this grace?

How do you get Faith to believe?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

You thought the notion of “false self” was relevant. It is relevant to dysfunction and if there is dysfunction it should be eradicated.

Coptic, I brought it up in order to illustrate the different meanings of “act”.

 

[1protestant]

Protestant one,

How is it you came to believe that Jesus had a vision as you declare?

and what is it you believe was so profound about being seen under a fig tree that Nathaniel declared…

You are the Son of God, the King of Isreal…

Please give me your profound insight…

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,

25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. (

)*the H.S. will show u what someone has been praying or going through)*and when u thll them-- they are conforted-

this is normal in the Christian group led by the H.S

So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Good Order in Worship

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters?

When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation.

(this is a normal event in a christian group H.S. i’m involved with)

(the H.S. will give you pictures ,events, words in your mind) which edify exhort,confort

1cor 12;31

Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down,

the first speaker should stop.

31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

it is also no big deal-- to do tongues and interperation–

because the H.S. will give you the revelation–

back in 1969-- i was involved with a catholic group-- and 30 years later-- in 1999 – they really had not developed very much further–

but i do know of one roman catholic priest that is anointed and is on u-tube with lectures and teaching

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

How do you get Faith to believe?

Not really sure what you’re asking. By grace are we saved. Charles Spurgeon once said, “Grace is the fountain and the stream: faith is the aqueduct along which the flood of mercy flows down to refresh the thirsty sons of men. It is a great pity when the aqueduct is broken. It is a sad sight to see around!”

The simplest way to believe is to believe. If you want to believe but can’t then take it to God in prayer and continue to listen and hear the Gospel.

 

[CopticChristian]

22

Protestant one,

You concern me…I asked you this…

How is it you came to believe that Jesus had a vision as you declare?

and what is it you believe was so profound about being seen under a fig tree that Nathaniel declared…

You are the Son of God, the King of Isreal…

Please give me your profound insight…

You answer with this

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,

25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. (

)*the H.S. will show u what someone has been praying or going through)*and when u thll them-- they are conforted-

this is normal in the Christian group led by the H.S

So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Good Order in Worship

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters?

When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation.

(this is a normal event in a christian group H.S. i’m involved with)

(the H.S. will give you pictures ,events, words in your mind) which edify exhort,confort

1cor 12;31

Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down,

the first speaker should stop.

31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

it is also no big deal-- to do tongues and interperation–

because the H.S. will give you the revelation–

back in 1969-- i was involved with a catholic group-- and 30 years later-- in 1999 – they really had not developed very much further–

but i do know of one roman catholic priest that is anointed and is on u-tube with lectures and teaching

Can we go back to the question about Nathaniel and the fig tree?

 

[CopticChristian]

Not really sure what you’re asking. By grace are we saved. Charles Spurgeon once said, “Grace is the fountain and the stream: faith is the aqueduct along which the flood of mercy flows down to refresh the thirsty sons of men. It is a great pity when the aqueduct is broken. It is a sad sight to see around!”

The simplest way to believe is to believe. If you want to believe but can’t then take it to God in prayer and continue to listen and hear the Gospel.

Itwin,

I am not asking Spurgeon, I am asking you.

We are saved by grace…how is it this grace becomes part of you…explain it to me so I can tell someone else…

I want grace, how do I get this grace, what do I do to get grace?

Faith, you equate to belief, so just believe and that is it. Is this what you are saying…

Abide, let Itwin answer, please…

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide, let Itwin answer, please…

Coptic—Why would I not let Itwin answer? You seem to be holding on to some mistaken assumptions.

At any rate, Itwin answers better than I do.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

I am not asking Spurgeon, I am asking you.

We are saved by grace…how is it this grace becomes part of you…explain it to me so I can tell someone else…

I want grace, how do I get this grace, what do I do to get grace?

Faith, you equate to belief, so just believe and that is it. Is this what you are saying…

Abide, let Itwin answer, please…

So you can quote the Catholic Catechism to me, but I can’t quote Spurgeon to you? I happen to agree with Spurgeon, which is why I quoted him.

And Coptic Christian, no I do not believe that all we have to do is say a sinner’s prayer or give mental assent to the proposition that Jesus is Lord. I believe that you think I believe that when I say anything related to soteriology, but for the final time, I do not believe that when the Bible says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,” that its simply talking about mental assent. It is talking about that you believe in something so much that you are willing to lay down your life for it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, I brought it up in order to illustrate the different meanings of “act”.

Abide,

I ask you to re-examine your motives because here is what you said…

To a considerable extent, even the most introspective, self-reflective of us are not always fully aware of all of our motives. That’s normal. Though, I don’t think that’s the main gist of what Itwin has been saying in his replies to Coptic.

I cannot agree that being self-reflective that we do not know our motives. Our self reflective ability allows us to think about our thoughts and to make decisions. I cannot agree with this.

C.S. Lewis’ novels The Great Divorce and Till We Have Faces are a couple of thoughtful books that go into the idea of not being fully aware of all of our motives.

You believed this to be true and introduced another source to support this notion of “false self” and motives. You may not be aware of your motives. I am fully aware of my motives. I know why I eat, why I exercise, why I read, why I type, why I do most anything…I know this because my motives stem from my profession of Faith and all that follows…I suggest you recite the creed weekly and see what that does to your lack of understanding of your motives…

Everyone, to greatly varying degrees, acts from a false self at times.

Again, here you generalize. Everyone, do you know everyone, have you spoken to everyone, do you truly believe this…

You need to have another look at your motive for introducing this, I pray you do not truly believe this…

 

[AbideWithMe]

I don’t think it’s physically possible to avoid cultivating an inner spiritual life, without at the same time cultivating an outward spiritual life.

How would a person pray three times a day, examine his conscience every day, go to Mass every Sunday, go to Confession as needed, and do the works of mercy at every opportunity, without at the same time reorganizing his inner life, and orienting it toward Christ?

I simply don’t see how that’s possible - either you would stop living the spiritual life altogether, or you would be inwardly transformed by these outward actions. It would not be possible to pray by rote, do good deeds by rote, and go to Confession by rote, without either becoming bored to tears and quitting it altogether, or letting it take hold of you and change you.

Jmcrae—Agreed, outward actions can inwardly transform a person. But, Jesus spoke of some of the Pharisees of his day who did their prayers and practiced their spiritual life for the praise of men. I do believe it can happen that a person does good things for the praise of men rather than God.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

I ask you to re-examine your motives because here is what you said…

I cannot agree that being self-reflective that we do not know our motives. Our self reflective ability allows us to think about our thoughts and to make decisions. I cannot agree with this.

You believed this to be true and introduced another source to support this notion of “false self” and motives. You may not be aware of your motives. I am fully aware of my motives. I know why I eat, why I exercise, why I read, why I type, why I do most anything…I know this because my motives stem from my profession of Faith and all that follows…I suggest you recite the creed weekly and see what that does to your lack of understanding of your motives…

Again, here you generalize. Everyone, do you know everyone, have you spoken to everyone, do you truly believe this…

You need to have another look at your motive for introducing this, I pray you do not truly believe this…

Coptic…As often happens we disagree. That’s that.

 

[CopticChristian]

So you can quote the Catholic Catechism to me, but I can’t quote Spurgeon to you? I happen to agree with Spurgeon, which is why I quoted him.

And Coptic Christian, no I do not believe that all we have to do is say a sinner’s prayer or give mental assent to the proposition that Jesus is Lord. I believe that you think I believe that when I say anything related to soteriology, but for the final time, I do not believe that when the Bible says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,” that its simply talking about mental assent. It is talking about that you believe in something so much that you are willing to lay down your life for it.

Itwin,

I did not quote the Catechism until long after we dialogued. I want to know from you

Charles Spurgeon once said, “Grace is the fountain and the stream: faith is the aqueduct along which the flood of mercy flows down to refresh the thirsty sons of men. It is a great pity when the aqueduct is broken. It is a sad sight to see around!”

Spurgeon tells me what it is and I am asking you how you get it.

How do you get grace, what is the mechanism to get grace?

How is it you believe and where does the Faith come from and how do you get it?

This seems to be a simple question and you have yet to answer.

 

[CopticChristian]

Jmcrae—Agreed, outward actions can inwardly transform a person. But, Jesus spoke of some of the Pharisees of his day who did their prayers and practiced their spiritual life for the praise of men. I do believe it can happen that a person does good things for the praise of men rather than God.

Abide,

Your parallel is a non-sequitor

Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees following the laws of the Old Covenant…

Christians following their conscience are not Pharisees. What do Pharisees have to do with a Christian?

Pharisees had Faith in their Faith of Abraham and the law that they did not follow…even Paul says this…

Do you who say do not steal, steal…

These are two different animals and have no relationship…

In all my years, over 60 going to Church, I never heard anyone say…

look at Joe, he goes to Church, works with the poor, donates time to the missions, his wife gives clothes to the naked, and his children are respectful…

Oh, no, you don’t understand, he does it for the praise of men…

I have never ever, ever, ever, ever heard anyone in any Church I have ever attended heard anyone say that anyone is doing anything for the praise of anything…

I see and saw people doing…it is only the Protestant mind, having attended many Protestant services where others are concerned about others and what and why they do it…I have no idea where this comes from…it certainly is not of God…

 

[1protestant]

Protestant one,

You answer with this

Can we go back to the question about Nathaniel and the fig tree?

it is really simple – Jesus had what is called an “open vision” this is "NOT unusual, but it depends what type of Spiritual group you are fellowshipping with…

my experience is also like what happened in 1 sam:10

Saul Made King

9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah,

a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish?

Is Saul also among the prophets?”

12 A man who lived there answered, “And who is their father?” So it became a saying: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

13 After Saul stopped prophesying, he went to the high place.

hello again–

the question is – how do you think a prophet see’s revelation…?

as jesus was recognized at this time …

how does the revelatory H.S. gifts operate in your personal understanding?

i am involved on a daily or weekly activity

it is easy to read about the operation of the Holy Spirit-- but it is more difficult to be an"empty" vessel – and voice the prophecy the H.S. is showing you.

because it-can “freak-out-the natural mind”

for example reading the following info-- can make one feel “warm and fuzzy”

and increase their natural understanding-- and you can feel more “bible savy”

and quote scripture-- but it will not make you prophetic -

BOOTCAMP

Apostle Jacquelyn F. Fedor

REVELATORY GIFTS

WORD OF KNOWLEDGE

There are three kinds of Knowledge:

1. Natural knowledge.

You don’t have to be saved or even Godly to function or think in the natural. This kind of knowledge was experienced for the first time in history by Eve in the garden when she fell. Her logic and actions were the result of reasoning through her soul man and ignoring her conscience, the voice of her spirit.

You can’t win a battle against evil spirits with your soulish intellect.

There are two forces that influence your thinking. Godly wisdom operates through your spirit, causing you to look at life circumstances as God sees things, and your actions are the result.

On the other hand, if you allow your soul man to control you through its emotions, and to influence your body’s feelings, you are allowing yourself to be tainted by Satan’s logic and led by your intellect.

It will “feel” comfortable or “feel” right, because it will agree with what you want rather than being the result of God’s will.

1. Biblical knowledge. This is knowledge based on truth.

It’s not the result of just memorizing scriptures, but rather from receiving illumination of the scripture by God’s Spirit. Thus, your actions are governed by rhema or divine explanation of the Word.

This is a wonderful way to operate, but it’s still not Word of Knowledge.

1. Word of Knowledge. This knowledge is acquired through the operation of the Holy Spirit through your spirit man. It is not the result of study or experience.

everyone-- seeks out the group they can comfortably relate too–

most people do-not-want to prophecy and be submitted the Holy Spirit-- talk is cheap-

and quoting scripture is a deceptive religious game

good luck in your “Quest”