Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[CopticChristian]

Coptic–What is PTL?

You’ve repeatedly pronounced your assessment of Heartland Center for Spirituality and Shalom Place, its internet ministry. You say it doesn’t have as its purpose “understanding the Faith”, but that “rather they are a magnet for dysfunction and PTL”. That’s about as accurate as someone perusing CAF and announcing it’s a magnet for dysfunction because it has a group for people with OCD and it has members who often ask questions about dealing with their scrupulosity or porn addiction.

As I said before, Heartland Center is a retreat center run by the Dominican Sisters of Peace. Its internet ministry is Shalom Place. Both Heartland and SP are focused on providing teaching and support for Christian contemplative practice. Their purpose indeed is “understanding the Faith”. Here, under “web site resources” you can find their online bookstore: shalomplace.com/books/index.html. As you can see, with few exceptions the books are from well-known Catholic authors who write about Christian spirituality.

Below the bookstore on “web site resources” is “A Daily Spiritual Seed”: “This daily (M-F) email message provides information, guidance and support on Christian contemplative spirituality using quotes from writers on Christian mysticism… Some of the authors quoted are St. John of the Cross, Thomas Merton, St. Theresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich, Evelyn Underhill, Bede Griffiths, Thomas Keating, St. Bernard of Clairvaux and many others.” With the exception of Underhill, all these authors are Catholic. How then, Coptic, is this not for the purpose of “understanding the Faith”?

A little further down the “web site resources” is the part you linked to earlier, “online resources”. On that page, the central and larger column is taken up by books and discussions on Christian spirituality such as Jesus is Risen , to give just one example. You, however, apparently latched onto one small part of SP’s offerings, on the side column where some papers on co-dependency, etc. are listed. Right below those are “Spirituality and Metaphysics” articles, with topics headed by a brief introduction to lectio divina. You seemed to have ignored the great majority of offerings from SP and Heartland and mistaken a peripheral topic for their central focus.

Edit: I wanted to add that I’ve been a reader of SP’s material for over four years, so I do know what I’m talking about.

Abide,

Crusing through the Shalom website, Chakra’s, Jung, Kundalini, Co-dependency, Addiction and the false self, etc…I am quite sure you know what you are talking about.

I spent time reading Jung, I spent time learning Chakra’s, I understand Kundalini yoga, Raja Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Zen, too much reading of Melody Beattie and co-dependency as well as Transactional Analysis, Gestalt, and you know I know lots about the 12 step religion of AA and addiction…and to that I would add…so what…none of this holds a candle to what can be found in the USA Catechism for adults…I suggest the Audio version…

This is all entertwined in the Shalom place and if that is where you spend your time, my blessings, I suggest you get hold of the Audio Catechism of the USA and learn what Catholic teachings are from the Deposit of Faith, rather than an eclectic minitstry…you can get it for $42.00 at Amazon…

I would hope that their bookstore has books on Catholocism…you would do better to look at the Daughters of St. Paul…

store.pauline.org/

No wonder you brought this nonsense about false self into the conversation as if it were Catholic teaching…Shalom is a place, it is eclectic, it is oriented towards problems and some sort of spirituality that includes Jung, Kundalini, and other stuff…I would not suggest anyone go to this site…

You can…

You may want to do a reality check on this website…

shalomplace.com/res/index.html

down at the bottom you will see this…

Spiritual Health Inventories
Inventories include False Self Scale, Codependency Inventory, and Christian Walk with God. Online tally available. Click here.

when you click on it, it takes you here…

eremitical.com/

Yikes…4 years you have been at this site…whoaa nelly…

It will certainly take you less than 4 years to get through the Audio Catechism…I got through it in a week and have listened to it well over a dozen times now…study this and then get back to me about Shalom Place…

P.S. What in the world is this Evangelical World coming to…Jim and Tammy Baker…lights, camera, action…it’s time to Praise The Lord…PTL ministry?:doh2:

Phil is as I thought, 12 step oriented, and if you like that more power to you…I don’t see this as valuable…perhaps if you have problems you find it helpful…there are better ways…If you find it meeting your needs in your hours of distress…by all means stay with it…you’ve been with it for 4 years as you say…if it works, work it…

Twelve Steps to Spiritual Wholeness: A Christian Pathway, by Philip St. Romaine…

amazon.com/Twelve-Steps-Spiritual-Wholeness-Christian/dp/0892434295

Anyone familier with the 12 step meeting format could easily use the prinicples laid forth to conduct meetings. Anyone not familier with 12 step meetings that would like to form a group using the ideas presented,would benifit in attending many AA meetings to understand the group dynamics.Make sure that the meeting you’re attending is an “open” meeting and visitors are welcome.Finally, as in any 12 step program,it ain’t easy and whomever you chose to do it with should be a trusted confidont

 

[CopticChristian]

Someone wise once said, what’s done in darkness will come to light

Itwin,

So do you agree with this profession of Faith…

We believe (I believe ) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begottenSon of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God ) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.

In that regard, Jesus is Lord of all…do you agree?

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

So do you agree with this profession of Faith…

In that regard, Jesus is Lord of all…do you agree?

Yes.

 

[ltwin]

I’ve already told you. I heard the Jesus’ message, and in hearing the message I got faith and believed. You may not agree with this but there it is.

As I reread and think on this thread, I think I probably haven’t been as helpful in my responses as I could have been, partly out of a growing sense of resignation that our conversations are getting us nowhere. Nevertheless, I can and will attempt to be more precise.

Itwin,

Faith is a gift. I cannot for the life of me understand how it is you believe you received this gift.

The benefits of divine grace are received by faith. Living in grace is living the life of faith. The agents for realizing and applying the benefits of grace are the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is the announcement of the law of God, which judges sin, and it is also the announcement of the grace of God in the healing and forgiveness of sin. The Holy Spirit is the convicting agent in the call to repentance, confession, and salvation. The Holy Spirit cultivates and leads the believer through all the experiences of grace.

Repentance is an experience of grace and an experience of faith. It is brought about by the word and the Holy Spirit where there is a renewal of the mind so the individual is convinced of guilt and offensiveness to God. There is a renewal of the emotions so that the individual is sorry for and despises his/her sinful life. And the individual is renewed in will so that he/she turns from sin and seeks a life of obedience to God.

I do remember the time I recieive the gift of faith. I was in a church service, and even though I had been in church all my life and had heard the gospel all my life, it never occurred to me that the gospel was for me, that Jesus’ life and death, his shed blood, his victory over death, hell, and the grave was for me. It never occurred to me that I needed forgiveness and that Jesus would give it to me. The way I saw it, the preacher was always talking to other people in the congregation, not me. My parents had always been referring to other people, not me. It was always something that didn’t have anything to do with me. That day, however, it did. It just clicked. For the first time in my life, what I had heard all my life and watched all my life became real to me. It applied to me. I knew what I had to do, there was nothing I could do but cry out to God and repent.

Keeping the commandments is as you recall as a result of Human Virtue, grace animating and causing moral virtues coupled with Theologic Virtues to cause us to keep the commandments by the Grace of God through Faith in God…all a gift. You said you agreed with all I wrote about this when quoting the Catechism and here I see confusion.

I don’t see any confusion. Repentance and the renewal and transformation of our minds involves a reconfiguration of our will. In sanctification, the graces that were implanted in regeneration are released, allowing a more fruitful growth in and by the Holy Spirit. Our energies, abilities,and actions that once were used to live contrary to the law of God and the love of Christ are now able to be used for the glory of God. The pursuit of holiness is the normal manner of life for the Christian.

Protestants get saved, whatever that means, but in the course get Baptized…you disallow any value, however I believe it infuses you with Faith/Hope/Charity

I don’t “disallow any value” to baptism. I believe it has important value and have written on the subject in certain threads on this very forum.

 

[CopticChristian]

As I reread and think on this thread, I think I probably haven’t been as helpful in my responses as I could have been, partly out of a growing sense of resignation that our conversations are getting us nowhere. Nevertheless, I can and will attempt to be more precise.

The benefits of divine grace are received by faith. Living in grace is living the life of faith. The agents for realizing and applying the benefits of grace are the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is the announcement of the law of God, which judges sin, and it is also the announcement of the grace of God in the healing and forgiveness of sin. The Holy Spirit is the convicting agent in the call to repentance, confession, and salvation. The Holy Spirit cultivates and leads the believer through all the experiences of grace.

Repentance is an experience of grace and an experience of faith. It is brought about by the word and the Holy Spirit where there is a renewal of the mind so the individual is convinced of guilt and offensiveness to God. There is a renewal of the emotions so that the individual is sorry for and despises his/her sinful life. And the individual is renewed in will so that he/she turns from sin and seeks a life of obedience to God.

I do remember the time I recieive the gift of faith. I was in a church service, and even though I had been in church all my life and had heard the gospel all my life, it never occurred to me that the gospel was for me, that Jesus’ life and death, his shed blood, his victory over death, hell, and the grave was for me. It never occurred to me that I needed forgiveness and that Jesus would give it to me. The way I saw it, the preacher was always talking to other people in the congregation, not me. My parents had always been referring to other people, not me. It was always something that didn’t have anything to do with me. That day, however, it did. It just clicked. For the first time in my life, what I had heard all my life and watched all my life became real to me. It applied to me. I knew what I had to do, there was nothing I could do but cry out to God and repent.

I don’t see any confusion. Repentance and the renewal and transformation of our minds involves a reconfiguration of our will. In sanctification, the graces that were implanted in regeneration are released, allowing a more fruitful growth in and by the Holy Spirit. Our energies, abilities,and actions that once were used to live contrary to the law of God and the love of Christ are now able to be used for the glory of God. The pursuit of holiness is the normal manner of life for the Christian.

I don’t “disallow any value” to baptism. I believe it has important value and have written on the subject in certain threads on this very forum.

Itwin,

Amen to grace and the Holy Spirit…now when we look at the Lord of all, it is important not to forget the Jew…The Catechism says this…

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

You have to examine creation, the world, and what God did with the Jews from Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon…up until Christ came…Paul exclaims in Romans…

Has God abandoned His people, by no means, for to them was given the Utterance of Scripture…

Kind of like that song…He’s got the whole world in his hands…

Do you marvel, as I do, stars, planets, earth, laws of Physics, the Jews with all their trials and tribulations, the tribe of Judah chosen to deliver the lion of the Tribe of Judah…

Do you see as I do the way God is Lord over that which came before and what has transpired?

 

[ltwin]

Amen to grace and the Holy Spirit…now when we look at the Lord of all, it is important not to forget the Jew…The Catechism says this…

OK. Jesus is Lord of all. Is there a point you’re trying to make?

 

[Roostah]

Man this thread has gotten way off subject. I don’t really know what an evangelical is. I googled it, I can read and understand. There seems to be a presumption that all those who profess to be a christian, come out of the catholic church one way or another-like through catholicism itself or out of the reformation churches. What the hey? you don’t need any church or organized religion to be a christian. If you have the Word of God and you believe in Jesus’ diety, life ,death and resurrection, you are a christian and you are saved.

Just what and what works do you need to add to that?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Coptic—I found the Shalom Place forum a number of years ago while doing a Google search for a Christian review of some popular New Age books by Eckhart Tolle. His books came up for discussion in an equestrian forum I was part of, and after I read the books, the SP review threads gave the best critique of them I found anywhere.

I have a great deal of respect for Phil, the SP moderator. Phil and the many other Catholics I met on the SP forum are what made me curious to learn more about Catholicism, since I know very, very few devout Catholics out of the Catholics I know in real life. Phil and others at SP have been instrumental in bringing a good number of non-practicing cradle Catholics back to their faith.

Coptic— I answered here, several pages ago, in regards to what brought me to Shalom Place. Many of my equestrian and artist friends are Buddhist or New Age—this ain’t the Bible Belt. What SP does attract in particular are people coming out of New Age practices and coming into, or back to, Christianity. I have no personal experience in New Age things, so SP has been helpful for me to understand New Age beliefs from a perspective of Christian critical thinking.

I understand the discussions of kundalini are unsettling. Phil and other Christians, though, have ended up with unusual “kundalini symptoms” simply from doing Catholic contemplative practice, not from doing kundalini yoga. Apparently some of the symptoms can be very disturbing, and SP provides one of the few places where Christians can look for help with dealing with them. While I’m skeptical myself about what kundalini actually is, I reserve judgment.

Abide,

No wonder you brought this nonsense about false self into the conversation as if it were Catholic teaching…Shalom is a place, it is eclectic, it is oriented towards problems and some sort of spirituality that includes Jung, Kundalini, and other stuff…I would not suggest anyone go to this site…

Coptic, you brought NLP (Neuro-linguistic Programming) into this thread. You must know that it has a reputation of being pseudoscience. Here, for anyone who hasn’t heard of it, is the wiki article on NLP: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming. You consider the “false self” concept nonsense, but it’s accepted as a useful concept by more mainstream psychologists than NLP is. So, your nonsense is okay on this thread, but mine is not?

You can…

You may want to do a reality check on this website…

shalomplace.com/res/index.html

down at the bottom you will see this…

when you click on it, it takes you here…

eremitical.com/

Yikes…4 years you have been at this site…whoaa nelly…

Obviously that’s a malfunctioning link.

It will certainly take you less than 4 years to get through the Audio Catechism…I got through it in a week and have listened to it well over a dozen times now…study this and then get back to me about Shalom Place…

I started to read the CCC years ago on Shalom Place. The Catholics quote it pretty often and post links to it.

Phil is as I thought, 12 step oriented, and if you like that more power to you…I don’t see this as valuable…perhaps if you have problems you find it helpful…there are better ways…If you find it meeting your needs in your hours of distress…by all means stay with it…you’ve been with it for 4 years as you say…if it works, work it…

I don’t have any addictions, co-dependency, or disorders. If I was involved in a 12 step program, I naturally would have said so on the AA thread. My point on that thread was that despite your efforts to undermine AA, I gave you links to Catholics priests, religious, and laypeople who don’t share your disdain.

 

[ltwin]

P.S. What in the world is this Evangelical World coming to…Jim and Tammy Baker…lights, camera, action…it’s time to Praise The Lord…PTL ministry?:doh2

The Bakers and PTL appeal to a subset of Evangelicalism, namely some Pentecostals and charismatics. Many Evangelicals run from PTL like the plague.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic— I answered here, several pages ago, in regards to what brought me to Shalom Place. Many of my equestrian and artist friends are Buddhist or New Age—this ain’t the Bible Belt. What SP does attract in particular are people coming out of New Age practices and coming into, or back to, Christianity. I have no personal experience in New Age things, so SP has been helpful for me to understand New Age beliefs from a perspective of Christian critical thinking.

I understand the discussions of kundalini are unsettling. Phil and other Christians, though, have ended up with unusual “kundalini symptoms” simply from doing Catholic contemplative practice, not from doing kundalini yoga. Apparently some of the symptoms can be very disturbing, and SP provides one of the few places where Christians can look for help with dealing with them. While I’m skeptical myself about what kundalini actually is, I reserve judgment.

Abide,

NLP is a communication model and a model of excellence. You might be surprised to know that all it does is describe how we communicate and that when modeling those that do things well you can achieve the same succes. You may also be surprised that Wiki has lots of information that if digested would be hard to understand…

I discovered that the Church speaks NLP, Church documents speak NLP and the Bible speaks NLP…I thought that I found something new. Boy was I in for a surprised when I discovered that two Protestant pastors figured this out, the Bible, not the Church long before me.

NLP is about changing your mind and the way you view things. Repent=change your mind and Paul said do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of you mind. Wow, NLP…right there…Jesus practiced NLP but since He created the mind He did it better than you or I…if you study Jesus and the Bible you would discover what I found and if you want more support…try reading this book…

Patterns for Renewing the Mind: Christian Communicating & Counseling Using NLP by Bobby Bodenhamer and Michael Hall

Bodenhamer is a Baptist Pastor and Michael Hall was a pastor before he became a Psychologis…they are on to something and you and others could learn something from these guys…

There is no pseudoscience about communication…I never claimed it was science. It is a model. It is a model that works. You would benefit from learning a model of the mind that works, is predictable and has benefit in communicating. If you don’t want to learn how to communicate then discard the notion. I like learning how to communicate. I make no claim to it being science.

So, NLP says if you want to achieve the same results as someone else, find that someone, model them and you will get the same results. Now just imagine you want to stop acting like a Christian and be one…and just imagine that if you were to read the Catechism…it is divided in 4 parts…

Profession of Faith…Map of Revealed Truth…NLP says that the map is not the territory, however in this case it is the territory
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ/Model Christ so you can be Holy as God is Holy
Pray

So NLP says model someone you want to be like and the Church says model Christ…now don’t that get all…if you want to be a Christian you have to do all you can to model Christ…modeling excellence is all you have to do…and the Church is right in tune with what we know about how the mind works…NLP, etc…

Kinda blew my mind when I realized that all the General Semantics, NLP, Neurosemantics fit right in with Christian thought and when you read the Catechism and Church documents you realize that it was always there all along…not to mention when you read the Bible with an understanding of what and how God communicates…just like NLP…He created it…we found it…

Patterns for Renewing the Mind: Christian Communicating & Counseling Using NLP [Paperback]
Bobby Bodenhamer and Michael Hall

amazon.com/Patterns-Renewing-Mind-Communicating-Counseling/dp/1890001309/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360728796&sr=8-1&keywords=patterns+for+renewing+the+mind

 

[mayogirl25]

The Bakers and PTL appeal to a subset of Evangelicalism, namely some Pentecostals and charismatics. Many Evangelicals run from PTL like the plague.

To put an end to naming religions and to answer the original question. Catholics are Christians and there are a lot of off-shoot religions (protestants) from Catholicism which all came about during the 1500’s or thereabouts and therefore they are called Protestants in order to differentiate from Catholics. Over the years everyone has diluted all the religions believing in Jesus Christ to be Christians. Sweet and simple.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic— I answered here, several pages ago, in regards to what brought me to Shalom Place. Many of my equestrian and artist friends are Buddhist or New Age—this ain’t the Bible Belt. What SP does attract in particular are people coming out of New Age practices and coming into, or back to, Christianity. I have no personal experience in New Age things, so SP has been helpful for me to understand New Age beliefs from a perspective of Christian critical thinking.

I understand the discussions of kundalini are unsettling. Phil and other Christians, though, have ended up with unusual “kundalini symptoms” simply from doing Catholic contemplative practice, not from doing kundalini yoga. Apparently some of the symptoms can be very disturbing, and SP provides one of the few places where Christians can look for help with dealing with them. While I’m skeptical myself about what kundalini actually is, I reserve judgment.

Abide,

Here is a working example of NLP…I wanted to know how to get in shape and so I went here…

cbass.com/index.html

I read his books, studied what he did and I followed his exercise routine and ate like he ate…the result…I got the same results and I have learned that when I want to do something, learn something, I look at what others do and find someone succeeding and model them…

Any questions?

 

[philv]

The truth is there’s no difference with Protestants today than those who rejected Christ and the church. Christ said the bread and wine was his blood and body “indeed”, and they left him. His disciples remained and Peter said he has the words of life, so where should they go? (John 6)

Another comes to mind…
Acts 15:24-26
24Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, 25we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Simply put then, whoever is with Jesus Christ is with the One, Catholic Church.

 

[jmcrae]

OK. Jesus is Lord of all. Is there a point you’re trying to make?

Jesus established a Church - if Jesus is really your Lord then why not belong to His Church? Why be any kind of Protestant or Evangelical or whatever when you can have the real thing?

 

[Roostah]

I don’t consider myself catholic, protestant or maybe maybe not evangelical, yet I am a christian because I believe in Jesus. My relationship to Jesus is not encumbered by labels. I am free from that stuff. I do belong to his ecclesia but not an institution. My deal/your deal is a one on one deal with Jesus. To put anything in between it to usurp the headship of Jesus Christ.

 

[awantz]

We use the term Christian, because that’s what we are. We are followers of Christ. A person who has put faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ, including His death on the cross as payment for sins and His resurrection on the third day are true Christians. Using the term protestant would be incorrect, because we are not protesting anything/ anyone. Actually, we want unity between all believers.

 

[Aramis]

I don’t consider myself catholic, protestant or maybe maybe not evangelical, yet I am a christian because I believe in Jesus. My relationship to Jesus is not encumbered by labels. I am free from that stuff. I do belong to his ecclesia but not an institution. My deal/your deal is a one on one deal with Jesus. To put anything in between it to usurp the headship of Jesus Christ.

It’s also ignoring John Ch.23. But, hey, the mark of protestantism really seems to be cafeteria biblical reading. In fact all 4 gospels include the commissioning of the 11, and the instruction to do likewise as Jesus had done.

How do you, without the church to double check you, know you’re not being lead by Lucifer’s angels, instead?

Acts likewise shows not One-on-one travels - but always at least in Pairs. Even St. Paul did not travel alone most of the time (St. Phoebe the Deaconess was one of his assistants in his travels).

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t consider myself catholic, protestant or maybe maybe not evangelical, yet I am a christian because I believe in Jesus. My relationship to Jesus is not encumbered by labels. I am free from that stuff. I do belong to his ecclesia but not an institution.

From what do you believe you are free? You are free from the Sacraments; from the real presence of Christ; from the “foundation and pillar of truth”. Why would you think this makes you free?

My deal/your deal is a one on one deal with Jesus. To put anything in between it to usurp the headship of Jesus Christ.

Sorry. Jesus started a Church. Do you imagine that this was just some after-thought, not really important in the great scheme of things? It is all about “we”, and not just “me”. We are the body of Christ. We are in communion with each other as well as with Christ. A solitary part cannot claim to be the body. In order to be part of the body it is necessary that there are other parts as well. Jesus didn’t say “Now go off on your own and worship me.” He started a Church. From that point on having a relationship with Christ means having a relationship with his Church.

 

[SteveVH]

A person who has put faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ, including His death on the cross as payment for sins and His resurrection on the third day are true Christians.

Yes, I would agree that true Christians believe what you have stated. But is that it? What about the Trinity? What about the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? What about Once Saved Always Saved. What about the hypostatic union? What about worshiping on Sundays rather than Saturday? Who’s right? Who’s wrong?

My question is, how did you arrive at your criteria for defining a “true Christian”?

Using the term protestant would be incorrect, because we are not protesting anything/ anyone. Actually, we want unity between all believers.

I would agree with you concerning the term “protestant”. Most non-Catholic Christians today are not protesting anything. They have been raised in a certain faith tradition and have never known anything else. Most don’t know enough about the Catholic Church to even motivate them to protest. This is in contrast to the ecclesial communities of the “Reformation”. They were in protest and the word “protestant” was very applicable.
I also applaud your desire for unity.

 

[Roostah]

It’s also ignoring John Ch.23. But, hey, the mark of protestantism really seems to be cafeteria biblical reading. In fact all 4 gospels include the commissioning of the 11, and the instruction to do likewise as Jesus had done.

How do you, without the church to double check you, know you’re not being lead by Lucifer’s angels, instead?

Acts likewise shows not One-on-one travels - but always at least in Pairs. Even St. Paul did not travel alone most of the time (St. Phoebe the Deaconess was one of his assistants in his travels).

Hi Aramis,

Are you sure you meant John 23? I can’t find that in the bible.

I’m not sure what you mean by cafeteria biblical reading? I’m always on guard that I, or the preacher might engage in “pick and choose” with the scriptures to prove a point.

I agree that we are commisioned…and thank you for the reminder…because I do need it.

Maybe the hang up is on the word “church”? It’s used 100+ times in the english translation of the new testament But in the original text, only about 3 times the word for “church” is used to refer to a building or maybe an institution. In the original text, about 100 times the actual word used is “ecclesia”, which means a gathering of believers. This is a major difference. Did Jesus instruct his institution (church) or his ecclesia to proclaim the word?

Why did King James and the Catholic translators chose to mistranslate “ecclesia”? They did, check it out for yourself with a concordance.

You ask how I know I’m not being led by Lucifer’s angels…sometimes it’s easy, sometimes I’m not sure, but I do have God’s Word (and a concordance) and I do have the help of the “ecclesia” my brothers and sisters in Jesus.

Why do some christians (evangelicals if you will) not call themselves protestants (or catholics for that matter)? because we don’t belong to an institution. We are just the bible believing ecclesia.