Why do most Non-Catholic Christians always claim that the Catholic Church makes error

[SolaFide]

One sin is too many.​

That’s unfair to Lando at least - virtually nothing is known about him, even to his discredit. As for Marozia being a prostitute, that’s a calumny; which is not to deny that she was a Bad Thing for the Papacy (from some POVs at least). If Cardinal Baronius had not been honest enough to mention these things in his​

History of the Church, we would know little of them - perhaps nothing. If anything, he was too severe. He had a reputation for being totally honest, even among his critics: which for someone writing in the 1580s, in the thick of tne Reformation, is quite something. ## That is 500 years later - the Papacy seems to fall into a debased condition every so often: the period from 964 (when John XII resigned) to 1464 (when Pius II died) is not unrelievedly black. The centralisation of the CC is a recent development - the ghastly behaviour of some Popes (& prelates) may seem more ruinous than it would have seemed to Catholics before 1800 or so.

…more…]

Oh honey, I’m just gettin’ warmed up! Do you actually want me to quote more?

“Debased condition every so often…” Hmmm, I’d say it might fall into a righteous state every so often from it’s debasement

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…last bit…]

John XII (955-964) who I mentioned earlier became pope at age 16 ran a harem in the papal palace and lived a life of such evil that it staggers the imagination! He even toasted the devil in front of St. Peter’s altar! John even slept with his mother and any other woman he could get his hands on. Women were warned not to venture into St. John Lateran church because as Liutprand wrote:

“Women…fear to come and pray at the thresholds of the holy apostles, for they have heard now how John a little time ago took women pilgrims by force to his bed, wives, widows and virgins alike”

Me again. This is much more than just a little struggle with sin. These men didn’t struggle with it at all, they embraced it! These are supposedly the men who were leaders of the church? They are supposed to be men of dignity and above reproach yet they led lives that even pagans found scandalous!! How can anyone in their right mind take what these guys have said and passed off as doctrine and dogma as legitimate?

Which pagans ?​

I’m not even going to go into the Catholic church’s partnership with Hitler in the Holocaust.

Why not take the plank out of your own eye first ? Throwing filth at one another is totally unChristian - it’s a denial of God’s grace: only a sinless people can have a sinless history. We are sinners,so Church history is full of our sins. Are our critics different ? Not if St.Paul is right.​

As to the CC’s credibility - that is from Christ. “The unworthiness of the minister does not hinder the effect of the sacrament”: as the Church of England points out; the same holds for the teaching of Christ’s ministers.

I gotta stop I’m getting ill.

In fairness to the 10th-century Popes - revolting as these things are (especially in comparison with that quotation from the NT: a lot of what is known is from partisan writers. This creates a different problem: if Popes have been maligned at all, that is a poor reflection on the character of the Christianity of the time. The same goes for the faction fighting you mention; which is a base way to treat the things of the Church.​

The CC is referred to as a “moral miracle” precisely because the sins of her members have not sunk her, & cannot - it is Christ Whose Holiness she shows; not that of mere men. No one is defending these evils - equally, they cannot cancel the faithfulness of God in Christ.

 

[SolaFide]

Why not take the plank out of your own eye first ?

Since you are quoting Jesus in Matthew 7:1-6

"(1)Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 "**You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. **

Notice Jesus is talking about hypocritical judging. Judging someone else for what you, yourself are currently doing. Since the Catholic Church was complicit in the Holocaust, the Serbian slaughters and other atrocities and I haven’t been a mass murderer I guess I can judge the church without being hypocritical.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, but with honesty. Sometimes when we love our kids we have to discipline them and spank their little behinds. It hurts but necessary. I don’t think many kids would think their parents were being so loving at the time, although they can look back on it years later and be grateful.

Do you want to know how Rome responded. The Church change its seminary program, as a root of the problem. The Vatican admit the cause of the sex scandal was homosexuals in the priesthood.

The Vatican issued a document banning gays completely from the seminary. Pope John Paul II according to Tim Staples state that any priests who commit sins against children cannot have their sins forgiven and no bishop can. Only the Pope reserves the right of absolution. Tim Staples cite his source from a priest.

This was a loving statement by Christ but I wonder how it was perceived then by the “religious types” as well as how would the Catholic church today:

Mar 7:6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'(8)THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mar 7:7 ‘(9)BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
Mar 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
Mar 7:9 He was also saying to them, "**You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. **

I also like to quote Jesus said concerning a brother sinning:

Matthew 18:15-17
**
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.**

The local bishops failed in their part to address this issue. The sex scandal was finally brought to the attention of Pope John Paul II. There were issue being discussed, but since he died the ban on homosexuals in the priesthood did not take into effect. However in 2005, Pope Benedict XVI approved the document and made reforms concerning the problem.

Just recently, the new priests coming into the priesthood are men loyal to the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church. I witness this myself since I went to a seminary during a military discernment program in St. Charles Barromeo Seminary.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Notice Jesus is talking about hypocritical judging. Judging someone else for what you, yourself are currently doing. Since the Catholic Church was complicit in the Holocaust, the Serbian slaughters and other atrocities and I haven’t been a mass murderer I guess I can judge the church without being hypocritical.

The Catholic had nothing to do with the holocaust. St. Maximillian Knobe, a Catholic priest, died in a Concentration Camp. As the charge concerning the slaughter of Eastern Orthodox Serbians by the clergy are the actions committed by the individuals. Rome for her part condemned the action.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Oh honey, I’m just gettin’ warmed up! Do you actually want me to quote more?

“Debased condition every so often…” Hmmm, I’d say it might fall into a righteous state every so often from it’s debasement

No, because that would be a sin on my part. I think it is a very bad idea to dig these things up - not because they are bad, but because Christians have no business doing the work of the devil (see Zechariah 3 & Rev. 12).​

Are you saying that the history of the CC is nothing but a mass of evil ? That would be as exaggerated as trying to make out that that the CC was totally sinless; not because of us, but because of Christ.

I think Chesterton was (almost) right: “The Church fell into apostasy on the day of Pentecost” - it fell much earlier than that. I doubt those who see nothing but evil in the CC today, would have much time for the Apostles - a lot of the first Christians were “no better than they should be”.

If a man’s sins disqualify his teaching, then neither St. Peter nor St. Paul have anything worth saying. Nor has King David - a foul specimen of lust, adultery, treachery, & murder if ever there was one. Nor has that murderer Moses, or that liar Abraham, or the other wicked men honoured in the NT & in the churches. “There is nothing new under the sun” - certainly not our sins or those of the Saints. So this digging up of scandals is all rather pointless Does it build up anyone ? I doubt it. If we are so foul - go & pray for our conversion: that might have a goosd & practical result

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Since you are quoting Jesus in Matthew 7:1-6

"(1)Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 "**You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. **

Notice Jesus is talking about hypocritical judging. Judging someone else for what you, yourself are currently doing. Since the Catholic Church was complicit in the Holocaust, the Serbian slaughters and other atrocities and I haven’t been a mass murderer I guess I can judge the church without being hypocritical.

Thanks flor quoting in full. ​

ISTM His words pierce deeper than that: IOW, that He is talking, not just of specific sins - but of the presence in one’s life of any habits of sin. IOW, if someone is under the power of sin X, he can’t admonish another person for sin X, or indeed for a different sin Y; because the light in the person admonishing woud be darkness

I may well be wrong

What one can’t do is to use the doctrine of sin, or the fact of it, in a partisan way - that would trivialise it. We all sin - so one can never stand aloof from those who sin, accusing those who do, because to do so is to set oneself apart from others, when one is as truly a sinner as they.

The tendency man has of doing just that is what Our Lord contradicts by everything He does & says.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Tell me SolaFide, you condemn leaders of the Catholic Church and the clergy for their sins. How about you? Are you holier than them? Surely I don’t think you are any less perfect than they? Unless you be perfect and Holy as the Lord himself, you don’t really have the right to judge the clergy of the church.

St. John writes:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Therefore my brother don’t judge them.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Mannyfit75, What a quincidence on pg 4 I mentioned St. Maximillian. here I’ll quote myself

All this hate you have towards the church can’t be good for yourself. I hope you didn’t join the catholic forums just to criticize the church. St maximillion died for a man when hittler was in power. He is a wonderful St for what he did. How come you focus on ones who abuse the call and not the good that is in the church.

He was my confirmation St too.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mannyfit75, What a quincidence on pg 4 I mentioned St. Maximillian. here I’ll quote myself

He was my confirmation St too.

Call me Manny or Emmanuel

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I think that Non-Catholic Christians are justified in a way to claim that the Catholic Church could makes errors; being after all human beings and not receiving direct Explicit Word of God through revelation from GodAllahYHWH.

It must be remembered here that those who are recipients of the Explicit Word only they could get inspiration (the Implicit Word) not otherwise.

This is what I understand from from Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

I respect your religion.

Thanks

 

[Goth_Catholic]

The Catholic had nothing to do with the holocaust. St. Maximillian Knobe, a Catholic priest, died in a Concentration Camp. As the charge concerning the slaughter of Eastern Orthodox Serbians by the clergy are the actions committed by the individuals. Rome for her part condemned the action.

And If I remember my European history correctly, Britian and several other nations appeased Hilter countless times, while his holocaust thrived, in essence simpliy looking the other way. Are the countries then guilty as well? How about the Anglican church, as the English monarch is head of such, and if the monarch did not move to oppose Hilter, then should guilt fall there as well? The Catholic Church did nothing to support Hilter, in fact the Church moved to help countless people. You should look into what Pope John Paul ll did during the Holocaust, when he was still a young priest in Poland. Many in Hilter’s army where Catholic, yes, but many Germans where. Hilter did not discrimiate between Catholics and Protestants, both German, therefore both under his command.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And If I remember my European history correctly, Britian and several other nations appeased Hilter countless times, while his holocaust thrived, in essence simpliy looking the other way. Are the countries then guilty as well? How about the Anglican church, as the English monarch is head of such, and if the monarch did not move to oppose Hilter, then should guilt fall there as well? The Catholic Church did nothing to support Hilter, in fact the Church moved to help countless people. You should look into what Pope John Paul ll did during the Holocaust, when he was still a young priest in Poland. Many in Hilter’s army where Catholic, yes, but many Germans where. Hilter did not discrimiate between Catholics and Protestants, both German, therefore both under his command.

I am aware that Pope Pius XII was against Hitler. He even condemned him when he was Cardinal. I am also familiar with Pope John Paul II life in Poland as Karol Wojtyla. He went underground to continue his study in the seminary. The Catholic Church was in fact helping Jews.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

I am aware that Pope Pius XII was against Hitler. He even condemned him when he was Cardinal. I am also familiar with Pope John Paul II life in Poland as Karol Wojtyla. He went underground to continue his study in the seminary. The Catholic Church was in fact helping Jews.

Manny, I didn’t quote you to make a point to you, rather to Sola Fide:blush:

 

[SolaFide]

The Catholic had nothing to do with the holocaust. St. Maximillian Knobe, a Catholic priest, died in a Concentration Camp. As the charge concerning the slaughter of Eastern Orthodox Serbians by the clergy are the actions committed by the individuals. Rome for her part condemned the action.

Really? Solicitor Francesco Pacelli, who was brother to Eugenio Pacelli who would become pope pius xii, acting as the Vatican’s secretary of state played an important part in negotiating the 1933 concordant between the Vatican and Hitler. Millions would flow into the coffers of the church from the church tax (Kirchensteuer) throughout the entire war. In exchange, Pius xii would never excommunicate Hitler from the church not would he raise his voice against the slaughter of 6 million innocent Jews.

Most of the catholic church was thrilled when this was signed. Catholic professor of church history Joseph Lortz “never tired speaking of the fundamental kinship between National Socialism (the Nazi party) and Catholicism, a kinship which runs amazingly deep…”

Also in 1933 Catholic prelate from Cologne, Robert Grosche wrote in Die Schildgenossen: “When papal infallibility was defined in the year 1870, the church was anticipating on a higher lever the historical decision which has now been made on the political level: a decision for authority and against discussion, for the pope and against the sovereignty of the Council, for the Fuehrer and against the Parliament.”

6 months after Hitler was elected to power he received this note of congratulations from Cardinal Michael Faulhaber:

“What the old parliaments and parties failed to achieve in sixty years your broad statesman’s vision has made a reality of world history in six months. This handclasp with the papacy, the greatest moral force in the history of the world, signifies a mighty deed full of immense blessing and an increase in German prestige East and West, in the sight of the entire world.”

Yes, there were individual Catholics who didn’t buy into the smoke and mirrors of Nazi Germany, but the church worked hand in glove with Hitler to stay in power as long as she could.

Oh, and one catholic priest dying in a concentration camp does not exonerate the whole Church for her crimes.

Serbian slaughter: Ante Pavelic lead the Ustashi with the full support of Croation Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac. The Ustashi were responsible for despicable crimes and murders backed with funds from Mussolini and the Vatican. Concerning Pavelic’s relationship with two top clergy two investigators wrote:

“When the Ustashi were ushered into Zagreb by the Germans, Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia immediately offered his congratulations to the poglavnik and held a banquet to celebrate the founding of a new nation. [As head of the Croatian bishops] he ordered the proclamation of the independent state to be delivered from all pulpits of the Catholic Church in Croatia on Easter Sunday and arranged to have Pavelic received by Pope Pius xii [in Rome].”

Unlike the Germans who used efficient means to exterminate their enemies, the Catholic Ustashi, with priests and bishops participating and giving their blessing, took great pleasure from “torturing before killing. Most of their victims were not shot but were strangeled, drowned, burned, or stabbed to death. Serbs were herded into Orthodox churches by Ustashi [as the Crusaders has done with Jews in an earlier time] who then barred the doors and torched the timbers. One captured photograph shows Ustashi smiling for the camera before a table displaying the body of a Serbian businessman whom they had castrated, disemboweled, carved with knives, and burned beyond recognition.”

No wonder the Cardinals robes are red…they’re stained with the blood of the innocents.

You need to read a real history book and not just the church’s take on it.

 

[lak611]

You need to read a real history book and not just the church’s take on it.

You need to read a real history book, not one written by someone with an agenda to defame the Catholic Church.

 

[SolaFide]

Tell me SolaFide, you condemn leaders of the Catholic Church and the clergy for their sins. How about you? Are you holier than them? Surely I don’t think you are any less perfect than they? Unless you be perfect and Holy as the Lord himself, you don’t really have the right to judge the clergy of the church.

St. John writes:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Therefore my brother don’t judge them.

No, I’m not. But then again I don’t lay out dogma and doctrine and claim that my words are to be guides to faith and morals and these men who have been complicit in these crimes have. Leaders of the church are supposed to be men above reproach and lead by example.

If I were to follow the example of the and cardinals I’d be raping, pillaging, stealing and murdering my way through life and hiding it under the guise of infallibility and magisterium authority.

BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

 

[SolaFide]

You need to read a real history book, not one written by someone with an agenda to defame the Catholic Church.

You know what sweetheart? I LIVED it for 7 years in Europe! I lived in Eastern Europe and have many good friends from Yugoslavia. They have grandparents and parents who lived through this stuff and lived to tell about it. It was them who got me to look closer.

I don’t live in the USA bubble where you hear the ecumenical nonsense and buy into it. I currently work with a man in Mexico who is an evangelical from Chiapas who saw friends gunned down on their way to church knowing that the gunmen are financed by the Catholic church.

Get your head out of the hole!

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Really? Solicitor Francesco Pacelli, who was brother to Eugenio Pacelli who would become pope pius xii, acting as the Vatican’s secretary of state played an important part in negotiating the 1933 concordant between the Vatican and Hitler. Millions would flow into the coffers of the church from the church tax (Kirchensteuer) throughout the entire war. In exchange, Pius xii would never excommunicate Hitler from the church not would he raise his voice against the slaughter of 6 million innocent Jews.

You, are the one who needs to read a history book.

After Germany invaded the Low Countries during 1940, Pius XII sent expressions of sympathy to the Queen of the Netherlands, the King of Belgium, and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. When Mussolini learned of the warnings and the telegrams of sympathy, he took them as a personal affront and had his ambassador to the Vatican file an official protest, charging that Pius XII had taken sides against Italy’s ally Germany. Mussolini’s foreign minister claimed that Pius XII was "ready to let himself be deported to a concentration camp, rather than do anything against his conscience.

Ahh yes, Mussolini was in control of Italy, making the Pope a vitual target for assassination by the Nazi party.

Most of the catholic church was thrilled when this was signed. Catholic professor of church history Joseph Lortz “never tired speaking of the fundamental kinship between National Socialism (the Nazi party) and Catholicism, a kinship which runs amazingly deep…”

Yeah, right. Unless you can back this up with a UNBIAS source, that would not hold a candle to your accusations.

Also in 1933 Catholic prelate from Cologne, Robert Grosche wrote in Die Schildgenossen: “When papal infallibility was defined in the year 1870, the church was anticipating on a higher lever the historical decision which has now been made on the political level: a decision for authority and against discussion, for the pope and against the sovereignty of the Council, for the Fuehrer and against the Parliament.”

6 months after Hitler was elected to power he received this note of congratulations from Cardinal Michael Faulhaber:

“What the old parliaments and parties failed to achieve in sixty years your broad statesman’s vision has made a reality of world history in six months. This handclasp with the papacy, the greatest moral force in the history of the world, signifies a mighty deed full of immense blessing and an increase in German prestige East and West, in the sight of the entire world.”

Yes, there were individual Catholics who didn’t buy into the smoke and mirrors of Nazi Germany, but the church worked hand in glove with Hitler to stay in power as long as she could.

No, she didn’t. Pope Pius especially worked against Hilter, IN SECRET. Better to show one face in public, then face a firing squard that does not help anyone.

Oh, and one catholic priest dying in a concentration camp does not exonerate the whole Church for her crimes.
Stand in front of God and say that.
Serbian slaughter: Ante Pavelic lead the Ustashi with the full support of Croation Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac. The Ustashi were responsible for despicable crimes and murders backed with funds from Mussolini and the Vatican. Concerning Pavelic’s relationship with two top clergy two investigators wrote:

“When the Ustashi were ushered into Zagreb by the Germans, Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia immediately offered his congratulations to the poglavnik and held a banquet to celebrate the founding of a new nation. [As head of the Croatian bishops] he ordered the proclamation of the independent state to be delivered from all pulpits of the Catholic Church in Croatia on Easter Sunday and arranged to have Pavelic received by Pope Pius xii [in Rome].”

Unlike the Germans who used efficient means to exterminate their enemies, the Catholic Ustashi, with priests and bishops participating and giving their blessing, took great pleasure from “torturing before killing. Most of their victims were not shot but were strangeled, drowned, burned, or stabbed to death. Serbs were herded into Orthodox churches by Ustashi [as the Crusaders has done with Jews in an earlier time] who then barred the doors and torched the timbers. One captured photograph shows Ustashi smiling for the camera before a table displaying the body of a Serbian businessman whom they had castrated, disemboweled, carved with knives, and burned beyond recognition.”

I’ll let those who are better educated then I refute this.

No wonder the Cardinals robes are red…they’re stained with the blood of the innocents.
Again, stand in front of God and say that.
You need to read a real history book and not just the church’s take on it.

see Lak611’s post

 

[lak611]

You know what sweetheart? I LIVED it for 7 years in Europe! I lived in Eastern Europe and have many good friends from Yugoslavia. They have grandparents and parents who lived through this stuff and lived to tell about it. It was them who got me to look closer.

I don’t live in the USA bubble where you hear the ecumenical nonsense and buy into it. I currently work with a man in Mexico who is an evangelical from Chiapas who saw friends gunned down on their way to church knowing that the gunmen are financed by the Catholic church.

Get your head out of the hole!

What about these martyrs who were killed in El Salvador? The Catholic Church is not supporting murderers.