Same way every thread gets here.
My mother suffered infertility! She was told not to have me (she wonât confirm but I believe abortion was suggested to her for me!). I love my small family that I grew up in.
And yes, how did we get here??
I did not read him saying to examine yourself for selfishness in your family size, but a general examine of selfishness in all areas. Where did he say he has âdone life better?â Are we reading the same posts?
I am the oldest and I am married to an oldest, yet we share your perspective. I think the birth order thing is merely a coincidence.
Too funny!Earlier today I looked back through the thread to see where the tide changed from arguments against contraception to arguments against all family planning. I believe it was #533 .
Thereâs always a point where someone introduces the lie that NFP can be done with a âcontraceptiveâ mentality. That tends to align the pro contraceptives and the anti NFPers as a quasi united front against people that do NFP. From there it turns into âthe default is not to plan your familyâ and the ideological standard that bigger families means more Catholic.
Post #632 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13578761&postcount=632
I donât still say because I never said. You seem to think Iâm saying raising kids isnât hard, or challenging or a struggleâthatâs not what I have said. You seem to think I am dismissing them as trivial or the product of ones attitudeâI have not done that. How we accept and view these challenges and struggles in life affects how we cope with themâit doesnât change the reality of them but it can affect how we deal them. We donât all deal with them in the same way. You seem to be greatly offended by the way I view them. I never said you had to view them the same wayâthough I get the feeling you think I should view them the way you doâthat my way of viewing them somehow dismisses themâthat I donât understand. Of course as you say we are all differentâbut perhaps in my case that is not to be allowed. I tend to see work in a drudgery sort of wayâI just donât view raising my kids that wayâeven when it is hard or a challengeâthatâs why I can say I donât see it as work. If your view of work is as something affirming and fulfilling then I can see how your seeing raising kids as work would be a positive thing. Thatâs why I said perhaps our definitions of work may be different. I am just not sure why that makes me self-righteous, and lacking in compassion and understanding.
Iâm not offended by the way you view them. I just think that you havenât got a right to call out others on their choices that donât align with yours. Have you forgotten that you did that in #632.
Right.
For whatever itâs worth, I donât either.
For Peteâs sake. Iâm not calling anyone to account. I seized on one particular phrase in a post by Xantippeâto ask a more general question that applied to more than the topic at hand. âAre we called to live in our comfort zone?â Boy was that a mistake. Why you keep insisting that I think I have done so well in life is beyond me. I ask these questions because Iâd like to see feed backâon the actual questionâso that I can do better in life. I thought the goal here was to learn how to become saints. To be quite truthful Iâm pretty sure Xantippe lives outside her comfort zone. One can be comfortable with the decisions they make i.e. Xantippe and her family planning decisions but thatâs different than living in your comfort zone. As I said in an earlier postâone can be comfortable in their decisions while still being outside their comfort zone. (example when we were first married we used abc, when we started Bible study and learning about the faith we adopted Church teaching as being trueâperfectly comfortable with the decision, but what that decision entailed was a little outside our comfort zone at the timeâwe stepped outside our comfort zone on faith) Iâm suggesting that we all examine our consciences regardless of the number of children we have regarding all areas of our life. Since I donât have a large number of children Iâd be accusing myself as well as anyone else if I was doing as you say.
You nailed it. Good questionâI think itâs because weâre all human and often fall short of our Christian calling. Thanks for calling us on it.I rarely even encounter it on these boards! More commonly I encounter on these boards people who think that those with large families feel superior to them. And then I encounter people who get defensive because they took offense at something. And then it goes downhill from there.
My own mother was a faithful Catholic who had two children and worked full time and sent us to Catholic schools. And I never encountered anyone at Catholic school who looked down on our family size. And I donât look down on Catholics with small families --or Catholics with many children or no children for that matter.
This thread!How did the conversation devolve into this?
Communicating over the internet has itâs limitations.
I tried to shed some light on this in post # 694.For whatever itâs worth, I donât either.
I donât understand why good Catholics who follow the Church teachings and determined with their spouse in prayer that they have just reasons for limiting their family size and therefore use NFP should presume that you or anyone else with larger families are self-righteous and judgmental. I just donât get it.
My first brush with the offensive attitude was that without just reasons, NFP is done with a âcontraceptive mentalityâ. Added to that one âif an African women in a mud hut in Africa can support a lot of children, what excuse to white westerners have for not having a lot of children alsoâ. Iâm perfectly at peace with my decisions and didnât even question them until coming up against those âcalling outsâ on this site. Some Catholics really believe that the intrinsic evil of contraception is the planning of the family not the thwarting of the nuptial meaning of sex. Contraception threads always turn against those who have planned their family with periodic abstinence.
We donât have a lot of the 50/60 year old Catholics here who took the âleave it to providence how many children I haveâ variety. People who promote that with âwarm-fuzzinessâ are younger and in the midst of child bearing not having to do periodic abstinence. When many of these people get to the 45 and 50âs, they change their tune about âleaving it to providenceâ and deem themselves âdoneâ to heck with providence, and slip quietly off the soapbox lest they are called out as hypocrits.
Why do you think this?
Yes it does. Does it not occur to you that it is also the source of a lot of other stress and guilt? The guilt my wife felt putting them in daycare was the source of a lot of pain and issuesâas you said you felt it was important to raise your children yourselfâimagine the guilt of a mother who doesnât but thinks she should. You donât have to judge us regarding the daycare (but youâre free to)âwe judge ourselves. It was hard to jetison the income we did in order for my wife to stay home but lets just say it was thrust upon usâIâm going to choose to believe by God. Weâve done it both ways nowâthey both have there stressesâtheyâre just different. Hereâs what I find funnyâyouâre willing to discount our experience and hold up yoursâsomething you seem to like to accuse me of doing. Because I donât do it 24/7 Iâm just dismissed as if my part in raising the children is important or as if I couldnât know anything about it, and youâre missing what I am saying. Iâm not saying it isnât really work in the sense that I think you are using the word. For me and for my wifeâthere is a difference between going to work at a job to make a living and staying home to raise your kids. They both require effort and struggles but raising your kids is so much more fulfilling and meaningful and ultimately more importantâthat, Iâm sorry, I just canât see it in the same way I see getting up and going to the office in the morning. Iâd so much rather stay at home and raise the kidsâthatâs a worthy vocation. My work just keeps a roof over our heads and food on the tableâour kids are the future and they belong ultimately to God. So youâre right it does give me a different perspective one that says it would be a joy to endure those struggles of raising my children in a way I donât right now. The struggles at the office are not a joyâthey are a burden. Thatâs the difference I see and thatâs why we donât call it work. I doubt that will make any sense to you. but thatâs how we see it.
Thanks for trying, but that didnât clarify it for me. Itâs a long thread, but I didnât see any post that took that extremist position of trying to define what constitutes good enough reasons for avoiding pregnancy when the Church herself has not.
Thanks. I was beginning to think I was crazy. Itâs nice to see at least one other person was able to read it as it was intended. Yeah this whole thing about how Iâve done better in life is bafflingâI would have thought it was clear that my life is far from that and my interest is in what kind of life we are called to live and how do we get thereâI thought that what weâre all interested in. Thatâs what I need help with.
I think I see what youâre saying, but think about the use of condoms and how unnatural it is to take a manufactured piece of material and place it between yourself and your spouse. It perverts the natural end of the procreative act. Think âOh honey I love you so completely, let me just wrap myself up in plastic wrap so I donât actually come in contact with you, that would be gross.â
Well, there are definite qualitative (and not just quantitative) differences in being alone with little kids all day versus sharing parenting with a spouse for a few hours between pick up and bedtime. Somebody (UbiCaritas?) was mentioning that as figuring into the difference between a SAHMâs experience of the evening, versus work-outside-the-home dadâs experience of the evening. Mom is often just barely going through the motions after a long day at home with the kid(s) and would kind of like to get in the car and go off by herself for the rest of the evening, whereas the kids are a novelty for dad (and vice versa), and heâs often able to deal much better with stuff that infuriates mom after dealing with it all day long. (Speaking with a broad brush, of courseâI fully expect to hear from several parents that everything that their children do delights them each and every minute of the day.)
