Why do murderers exist?

[Needy1]

Well, probably, God did give them a spirit that would possibly chose to do murde by the free will. If not, they came from devil I guess.

 

[Needy1]

Oh, I see.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Why do murderers etc exists?

Because people exist and most people do things. Some people do something awful, like kill someone.

How can murder happen?

Because people can die, and we know of various ways a person can die. Sometimes a person decides to use that knowledge to help bring about those conditions for another person.

I think the existence of them, murderers, are contradicting against Christians beliefs. How can the creation of the loving God murder the another creation of the loving God?

Why not just get to the point: You’re struggling with the problem of evil.

Why did God allow them to become like them?

They can exercise their free will to try to commit murder, but why doesn’t God thwart them?

If God didn’t permit our will to go awry, it wouldn’t be free will. So the core is really: Why did God choose to give us free will?

Why do free will of the victims got ignored?

Free will doesn’t mean that something you don’t want to happen to you doesn’t happen to you.

The attempted murderer can still be punished by God for his intent, but the intended victim is spared.

Intent and action are two different things. The latter is generally a result of the former, but the former does not always lead to the latter.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

Free will.

 

[guanophore]

Who does not? And no one, not even the most educated philosopher or theologian, or the apologist can give a satisfactory answer to that question.

I agree, it is incumbent upon human beings to struggle with the problem of evil.

The Catholic Answer, however, to the “problem of evil” is quite sufficient for me, and it is not a “thorn in my side” at all.

Catholics believe that Jesus is God, and His explanation for the problem of evil is more than adequate.

 

[ZMystiCat]

For a constructor the idea of “ free will is a bug ”, not a feature. No sane constructor will create a system, where the “whim” of one of the components can destroy what the constructor intended.

Without trying to figure out if you’re using “constructor” to mean the programmer or the component within the class, this analogy only works if:

1. God is merely a “class” in a larger “program”, which is not at all close to what Catholics believe about God. Or…
2. Computers possess free will, which they don’t.

Basically, this analogy doesn’t work. Even if it did, though, certain aspects of programming are designed to destroy other components. Garbage collection, for instance, is basically an attempt to smartly remove other objects from memory.

We all have a certain about of freedom, which is always curtailed to some extent.

I never denied that, but if something is within the scope of possibility, but we are consistently held back from it by God, then we are no longer choosing to obey but doing so by force.

However, the “free will” of the strong attacker goes on unimpeded, while the free will of the weak victim is not allowed to come to fruition.

Again, free will does not mean that nothing ever happens to a person that they don’t desire. Circumstances and actions are two completely different things.

Who does not?

I never said anyone didn’t. I just find the phrasing here to not really be effective at getting at the problem.

 

[guanophore]

Of course I have never seen or heard Jesus’ explanation for the "problem of evil.

One might begin by reading the Gospels, John in particular.

But you seem to forget that one of the tasks left to you by Jesus is to go out into the world and spread the “good news” to everyone.

I am curious why you would think that Jesus’ explanation for the problem of evil would be counterproductive to this task. After all, the explanation and the directive of the great commission come from the same person!

That would require a thorough and detailed explanation of how to reconcile God’s alleged omnimax attributes with the existing evil.

For some people it does. Some are not pre-occupied with such philosophical details.

I am not sure what you mean by “alleged omnimax”?

The best they can say that it is a “mystery”, and that is not an argument that would convince any well-educated skeptic.

Actually, that is not the best answer, and I agree, it is unconvincing.

The best way to prevent unwanted actions is make sure that no one wants, wishes, desires or wills to perform those acts.

I agree. Which leaves us with the fact that God did not choose the “best way to prevent unwanted acts.”. Instead, He allowed us free will, such that there are unwanted consequences (like murder exists) because love is freedom, and prevention of choice is not ultimately freedom or love.

Prevention is the aim of the “game”.

It may be for you, but God’s plan for humanity is a loving relationship, not a "game " of “Prevention”.

God could create a world with unlimited freedom and without any sin.

Our freedom is not unlimited, it has boundaries. And no, true freedom does not include compulsion.

God’s plan for us is, indeed, for us to have no sin. He has allowed us to choose this holiness, rather than creating us with the inability to choose it.

If you happen to believe the story of the Genesis to be literally precise, then the question of the “original sin” sin could be solved in three elegant ways: “1) do not create that ‘darned’ tree, or 2) do not forbid to eat from it or 3) create everyone directly into heaven.”

Or, create the tree, tell them not to eat from it, then allow them to have the consequences of their own choice.

 

[guanophore]

can create anything and everything as long as there is no logical contradiction in the creating parameters

Herein lies the problem. There is a fundamental logical contradiction between love that sets the object free, and creating slaves/puppets who are not able to choose the wrong.

To create an inferior solution where some “entity” within the created world can disrupt working of the system is contradicted by the “omnimax” creator’s attributes.

You seem to have misunderstood the “working of the system”.

God wants every soul He creates to be in harmony with Him forever.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Actually, what I presented in not an analogy, but an abstract formulation of the question.

The original objection was that the existence of people who murder contradicts Catholicism. In that case, going as abstract as possible doesn’t really do anything, as a series of conditions have already been put into place.

To have zillions of human beings, all of whom have unlimited freedom and yet, not one of them would wish to commit any “sins” is logically possible , so God could create a world with unlimited freedom and without any sin.

And, as far as we are concerned, He did. But if we have no capacity to choose or reject Him, then we don’t really have free will as far as the matter is concerned. All the sin comes from the fact that we chose to reject Him. So while it is absolutely possible that we would have never chosen to sin, that is frankly not the reality we ended up with.

If you happen to believe the story of the Genesis to be literally precise

Catholics aren’t required to, and as far as I know, most don’t, so the point seems a bit moot.

What is wrong with it?

“Why do murderers exist?”

The question makes it sound like people are born murderers, which isn’t a foregone conclusion. It certainly isn’t a Catholic view.

 

[guanophore]

Which lead to this world, with all its consequences. To purposefully create a sub-optimal solution, when an optimal one is possible is NOT the sign of “love”.

I think you are right. When using human standards of “optimal” and applying them to God, there will always be a gap. Human beings are incapable of grasping the breadth and depth of God’s love.

There is no contradiction having free creatures who never want to choose wrong, who choose to love freely, in every instance.

Indeed not. If there were, then He would not have created humanity in this state! This is the state He desires for us.

To be able to choose an optimal solution and then NOT choosing to implement it is the sign of indifference - at best.

I can accept that God’s actions have not met your human criteria for what is optimal.

The only logical corollary is that God did NOT want everyone to be with him. If reality contradicts the hypothesis, then the hypothesis MUST be discarded.

Ok. Those of us who have accepted what God has revealed, over and above human logic, will see it differently. God’s desire will be fulfilled, without coercion.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot explain away this.

I agree. And since I disagree with your assertions, there is little point in investing any effort into the task.

 

[IWantGod]

If there is no God we all are going to die and presumably cease to exist. Murder would just be a part of life.

We’re animals after all.

@Needy1

True. Without the Christian conception of God we are nothing more than a particular expression of physical processes, and murder is just one possible outcome. In fact it wouldn’t even make sense to call it murder. Human events, including all the activity involved, would just be the inevitable something that happened like the rest of the universe; just an expression of energy in a just-so story. And despite any illusion of meaning, life and death would just be a meaningless thing that happened, no different in significance from a asteroid hitting the moon. There wouldn’t be any point trying to make sense of it.

But if there is a God as Christians understand it, then murder is a symptom of our fallen natures, and God is the only cure. Being fallen, as it were, means that we tend to be victims of the flesh, and God calls us to master the flesh, that is to say we are called to be masters of our natures as well as being in unity with God’s will. When we fail to do this we become like the beasts, like animals.

 

[JimG]

Some murder for money. Some murder for ideology. And a remarkable number of murders seem to occur for “love,” such as murdering one spouse in order to take another, or due to jealousy or revenge.

 

[Needy1]

Ty for the answers, everyone.

 

[Vico]

Why do murderers etc exists? How can murder happen?
How to deal with the reality of current world, which is cruel, when you’re having catholic beliefs?

I think the existence of them, murderers, are contradicting against Christians beliefs. How can the creation of the loving God murder the another creation of the loving God?

Why did God allow them to become like them? How did they want to become murderer, by fresh, or by spirit?

Catechism

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

 

[Seagull]

The devil was a murderer from the beginning - says Jesus.

The devil is The Prince of this World.

17,250 gruesome murders happened in the USA last year.

 

[IWantGod]

17,250 gruesome murders happened in the USA last year.

Forgive them God for they know not what they do.

 

[po18guy]

Let’s examine the historical record.

Genesis 3 - the fall from grace.

Genesis 4 - the first shedding of blood - Murder!

We are broken creatures in a broken world.