Why do Muslims believe that the Modern New Testament is corrupted?

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Since Muslims consider the Quran to be the *verbatim *word of God, why is it compiled in such a haphazard fashion by listing the suras by the longest first and the shortest last, instead of chronologically as it was supposedly revealed?

Vickie
Every verse and every sura in the Qur’an was inserted and arranged according to the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… although he himself could neither read nor write.

This is yet further proof of the divine origin of the Qur’an.
 
Originally Posted by hamba2han
Seems to me that you do not accept scientific findings by modern-day archeologists as well.
Is there a scientific reason why you would reject their research?
Is there a scientific reason non-Muslim archeologists are not allowed to study Mecca or the oldest copies of the Koran? After all, it would only prove the validity of Islam.

But what if the house was not from the age of Abraham?
 
Every verse and every sura in the Qur’an was inserted and arranged according to the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… although he himself could neither read nor write.

This is yet further proof of the divine origin of the Qur’an.
This is incorrect! Mohammed was long dead and gone by the time the current version of the Koran was compiled.

You still have not answered my question. Where is your proof of the correct version of the Bible. I do not accept the Koran.

BHTech
 
hamba2han,muhammed was illiterate but that was not a problem.cuz he told the quran to his fellows and they write it.like homar was blind but he wrote iliad&odessey.so if a man is illiterate he can also creat a book.you know muhammed could speak very well.so if i claim that he told the verses and his fellows wrote it so wat can you say?
 
hamba actualy i wanted to say that muhammad was like a minstrel and quran is a minstrelsy.
 
Every verse and every sura in the Qur’an was inserted and arranged according to the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… although he himself could neither read nor write.

This is yet further proof of the divine origin of the Qur’an.
Archaelogists have found many authentic Eqyptian documents written on papyrus and much older than the Quran, does that make them of divine origin?

Vickie
 
The Qur’an was not completed chapter by chapter… nor was each chapter completed verse by verse!

How many books do you know of that has been written in this way?

The order and sequence of the Qur’an is divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Gabriel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Gabriel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
 
The Qur’an was not completed chapter by chapter… nor was each chapter completed verse by verse!

How many books do you know of that has been written in this way?

The order and sequence of the Qur’an is divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Gabriel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Gabriel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
A darned animal with four legs known as a goat ate a piece of the all-powerful Allah’s Quran.

“Narrated by Hazrat Ā’ishah that ayat-e-Rajm and ayat Raza’at were revealed, they were written on something. I kept them under the cart, meanwhile the holy prophet died and we became busy and one GOAT came and ATE those ayyat” (Ibn-e-Maja).

Also found in Sunan Ibne Majah, Volume 2, Pages 39, Published Karachi.

I wonder what was on that verses, perhaps the True God banished them because they were so evil

Didn’t saw this video, but is related to this

youtube.com/watch?v=kttrfexnMdo

Do you see in what your faith is based on ?

I can launch and launch just little stones into your Faith Wall…making holes, wounds that can never be cured…and lately in can be a apostate, or atheist, or something else

Only the truth of God Himself, His Grace, is unbeatable, and give health, peace, and love to the soul

The truth covers you in spirit, not from a book, because the book can KILL YOU, and the true God is a pure Loving Spirit of Light

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians, 3-6
 
Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Gabriel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.
Friend why will you not answer my earlier question? If you were trying to convert or convince anyone here, I’m afraid you are not doing a good job of it. Sigh.

So Gabriel had to continually come back to Mohammed to reorder and revise the verses (Your words not mine). Now I ask myself why would that be? It seems that it is more logical to give all the revelations, then at the end, tell Mohammed how to order them. Wait that’s human thinking…

BHTech
 
(Matthew 15,14)
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Only the True Church can correctly interpret the bible by the Spirit of God, there is all answers in there…
 
The Qur’an was not completed chapter by chapter… nor was each chapter completed verse by verse!

How many books do you know of that has been written in this way?

The order and sequence of the Qur’an is divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Gabriel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Gabriel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
This is contrary to the traditional Islamic teaching that the Koran was first compiled and authenticated by the first Khaliph after Mohammad’s death. What Mohammad left Muslims was not a complete book in the correct order, but several verses written on stones, pieces of wood and paper, leaves, and even animal skins. Thus, Mohammad never held the book Koran in his hand.
 
Angelos; 3661806:
This is contrary to the traditional Islamic teaching that the Koran was first compiled and authenticated by the first Khaliph after Mohammad’s death. What Mohammad left Muslims was not a complete book in the correct order, but several verses written on stones, pieces of wood and paper, leaves, and even animal skins. Thus, Mohammad never held the book Koran in his hand.
Hi

I think it is a phenomenon mostly misunderstood by many. Quran as its very name suggests primarily meant “reading” of a verbal revelation on the heart of Muhammad by GodAllahYHWH, recitated by Muhammad as well as immediately committed to memory by him. When Muhammad recited, from his recitation his companions committed it to their memory and so on and so forth; the system continues till date with Huffaz, those who learn Quran by heart. It could be understood to be sort of an audiobook. This was complete and arranged as it exists and learnt by heart by thousands in Muhammad’s time and even afterwards till date. This was system was and is independent of the written text.

As I said this system never depended on writing of Quran; the process of which was also started by Muhammad; nevertheless completed in the time of his successor Abu Bakar, a great achievement of whose Khilafat was the collection of the Holy Quran at one place. Although the writing and arrangement of the Holy Quran was done under the supervision of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, himself, yet it was written on various pieces of skin, leaves and slate. Hazrat Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, collected all these pieces of writings in one place, and re-organized the Hufaaz, or those who committed it to memory, in a systematic way, for the preservation of the Quran.

So Quran is secure under two independetn systems, one the verbal and the other in writing; however the text remains the same. There are no two Quran in the world in the ArabicText.

Thanks
 
Hi

I think it is a phenomenon mostly misunderstood by many. Quran as its very name suggests primarily meant “reading” of a verbal revelation on the heart of Muhammad by GodAllahYHWH, recitated by Muhammad as well as immediately committed to memory by him. When Muhammad recited, from his recitation his companions committed it to their memory and so on and so forth; the system continues till date with Huffaz, those who learn Quran by heart. It could be understood to be sort of an audiobook. This was complete and arranged as it exists and learnt by heart by thousands in Muhammad’s time and even afterwards till date. This was system was and is independent of the written text.

As I said this system never depended on writing of Quran; the process of which was also started by Muhammad; nevertheless completed in the time of his successor Abu Bakar, a great achievement of whose Khilafat was the collection of the Holy Quran at one place. Although the writing and arrangement of the Holy Quran was done under the supervision of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, himself, yet it was written on various pieces of skin, leaves and slate. Hazrat Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, collected all these pieces of writings in one place, and re-organized the Hufaaz, or those who committed it to memory, in a systematic way, for the preservation of the Quran.

So Quran is secure under two independetn systems, one the verbal and the other in writing; however the text remains the same. There are no two Quran in the world in the ArabicText.

Thanks
So, is the Qu’ran like the Catechism of the Catholic Church than? Because the Catechism is a systematic presentation of the teachings of the Church.

No offense meant. I’m just trying to understand. 😊
 
So, is the Qu’ran like the Catechism of the Catholic Church than? Because the Catechism is a systematic presentation of the teachings of the Church.

No offense meant. I’m just trying to understand. 😊
No.

In Traditional Sunni Islam there are two main sources, as well as other secondary sources.
  1. Quran: The Word of God.
  2. Hadiths: Words of the Prophet.
  3. Athars: There are various types of Athars;
    Code:
     From the first three generations of Muslims:
    
    a) Words of Companions of the Prophet.
    b) Words of Tabi'een (the Students of the Companions.)
    c) Words of the Tabi Tabi'een (Students of the Tabi'een)
Then you have works of the scholars who came afterwards. The systemazation took place as early as the second generations.

In Islamic Law, you have four schools of thoughts, four different methods of systemazition. Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, and Hanbali.

In Islamic Belief, you have two major schools of thought, although some might add there is a thrid.

Ashari, and Maturidi, the third is sometimes refered to as Athari (Tahawi and/or Hanbali)

In Islamic Spirituality, you have many schools of thoughts, Shadhili, Qadiri, Ba Alawi, Naqshabani etc.

Along with this you have other sciences which have been systematized as well along with scholars of these science.

Related to primary sources:
Quranic Sciences (Commentaries as well as principles exegesis)
Hadith sciences (Commentaries as well as methods of hadith
authentication)
Islamic Legal Theory (Methods for extracting Islamic Law)
Islamic Logic (Methods for extracting Islamic belief)
Arabic Language (Morphlogy, Grammar, Balagha (Eloquence))

And with each of these sciences, there are texts that have been written by scholars who systematized the religion.

This is a whole indepth system taught by Traditional Sunni Muslims. The sad thing about Sunni Islam today, and Protestant Sunni Islam is growing today, which has given birth to Wahabis, which like Christian Protestantism, who want to literally get rid of over 1200 years of Islamic traditional, and return to the Primary sources, like Protestant want to abandon the tradition of the church and return to bible.

It is protestant Sunni Muslims, such as the Wahabis (Salafis), Ikhwani, and many others who are given birth to the radical forms of Islam, the terrorist.

To me the New Testament is equalvilent to the Hadiths of the Muhammad.

Because Jesus did not really bring a revelation from God, in terms of bring a book. Our revelation from Jesus is actually the Holy Spirit. Because every Christian is in fact a prophet, who has access to the Holy Spirit, and can receive direct knowledge from God. But we (Christians) have to purify our hearts first before we can receive direct knowledge properly, “Blessed are those who are pure in heart for they shall see God.”

The revelation of the Muslim is a book, called the Quran. So they have secondary knowledge from God via Muhammad. Jesus came to teach us how to gain direct knowledge from God. To become one with God.

Just as you will find contradictions in the New Testaments, which the Church as deemed to be Authentic, you will find many contradictions in hadith which Traditional Sunni scholars have deemed Authentic.

Anyway those are my thoughts.
 
Hi

I think it is a phenomenon mostly misunderstood by many. Quran as its very name suggests primarily meant “reading” of a verbal revelation on the heart of Muhammad by GodAllahYHWH, recitated by Muhammad as well as immediately committed to memory by him. When Muhammad recited, from his recitation his companions committed it to their memory and so on and so forth; the system continues till date with Huffaz, those who learn Quran by heart. It could be understood to be sort of an audiobook. This was complete and arranged as it exists and learnt by heart by thousands in Muhammad’s time and even afterwards till date. This was system was and is independent of the written text.
You somehow forget the fact that people reading and memorising the Koran today have all its surahs and verses in the form of a single book, which also functions as a checklist within reach that people consult to test their correct and accurate memorisation. However, none of the early Muslims had the Koran in the same form as today, which would definitely make its accurate recitation and memorisation almost impossible.

This was basically because the Koran’s supposed revelation continued for a long period of time and people needed to add new surahs and verses to their memory without having the previous surahs and verses in the correct order. Besides, most of the new verses were meant to repeat the former ones although they presented the same teachings or narratives in different orders and through different words. In short, all those Muslims, who were alleged to know the whole Koran by heart, would need a miracle to memorise the Koran accurately. (I am excluding the abroagation of certain verses by others, which would certainly disrupt or complicate the process of memorisation).
As I said this system never depended on writing of Quran; the process of which was also started by Muhammad; nevertheless completed in the time of his successor Abu Bakar, a great achievement of whose Khilafat was the collection of the Holy Quran at one place. Although the writing and arrangement of the Holy Quran was done under the supervision of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, himself, yet it was written on various pieces of skin, leaves and slate. Hazrat Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, collected all these pieces of writings in one place, and re-organized the Hufaaz, or those who committed it to memory, in a systematic way, for the preservation of the Quran.
The fact that the Koran’s compilation was completed in the first Khaliph’s period is a good reason to approach your theory with many doubts. The collection of all those writings from different materials after Mohammad’s death indicates that he never started the process of compilation in his lifetime. Muslims came to their senses after their messengers’ death and needed to work all those verses into one single book.
So Quran is secure under two independetn systems, one the verbal and the other in writing; however the text remains the same. There are no two Quran in the world in the ArabicText.

Thanks
However, NO Muslim can prove today that the written version of the Koran was exactly identical with its former verbal version. More, there were different Koran versions until Uthman’s period, when he officially standardised the Koran by burning different copies. This is exactly why even Muslims cannot date the earliest manuscript of the Koran earlier than Uthman.

Thanks
 
However, NO Muslim can prove today that the written version of the Koran was exactly identical with its former verbal version. More, there were different Koran versions until Uthman’s period, when he officially standardised the Koran by burning different copies. This is exactly why even Muslims cannot date the earliest manuscript of the Koran earlier than Uthman.

Thanks

Well, if one is honest, you can’t prove the New Testament is authentic either.

All we have is evidence, not absolute proofs for anything.

I am personally convinced that the Quran that they have today is probably authentic. I do have doubts concerning the Prophethood of Muhammad, but that is another subject all together.

I think the Muslim scholars have done an excellent job in perserving their tradition, of course it is not from critizism, but what is free from criticism???
 
Well, if one is honest, you can’t prove the New Testament is authentic either.

All we have is evidence, not absolute proofs for anything.

I am personally convinced that the Quran that they have today is probably authentic. I do have doubts concerning the Prophethood of Muhammad, but that is another subject all together.

I think the Muslim scholars have done an excellent job in perserving their tradition, of course it is not from critizism, but what is free from criticism???
My aim was to remind paarsurey that the Koran’s authenticity is not altogether free from criticism and skepticism. I have never claimed that the authenticity of the Bible with regard to its inspiration can be scientifically or historically proven. However, the Koran faces the same textual criticism as the Bible when the notion of faith is suspended or disregarded.
 
My aim was to remind paarsurey that the Koran’s authenticity is not altogether free from criticism and skepticism. I have never claimed that the authenticity of the Bible with regard to its inspiration can be scientifically or historically proven. However, the Koran faces the same textual criticism as the Bible when the notion of faith is suspended or disregarded.
Agreed.
 
I have decided that as no one within the Muslim faith, at least on this message board, and no Muslim website that I have seen can answer my questions, there is absolutely NO basis for the Muslim claim that the Bible was corrupted.

They cannot tell me Who did it.

They cannot tell me when it was done.

They cannot tell me what was changed

They cannot tell me why it was changed

In my mind, this also calls into question he who made the claims: Muhammed. A true prophet would have known these things.

I am sorry, but until a Muslim can present me with proof, there is no reason that I should hold that position. This is not unreasonable.
 
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