Why do non-adherents think they are entitled to heaven?

[Beryllos]

@JohnStrachan, non-adherents, from the title, is a curious term. Will we be judged by our adherence?

 

[blackforest]

She tells me she doesn’t need God in her life

And yet she contradicts herself at the funeral.

and thinks Christians are self-righteous.

You gotta admit we can be . . . It doesn’t make our faith in any way wrong. It simply means that we’re sinners and need to keep ourselves in check. The secular world just holds Christians - unfairly, I’d argue - to a higher standard.

But I’m fond of telling people that if you want to avoid self-righteousness and hypocrisy, make sure never to leave the house. Those traits are endemic in the world and certainly not unique to Christians.

 

[Neithan]

The interesting thing that’s happening now is how self-righteous the secular crowd have become and accusing us of immorality. That’s a markedly different turn from just a decade or so ago.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I’m kind of curious why non-adherents of the RC church, or any denomination for that matter, believe heaven awaits them despite their lack of practice, belief or both.

I’ve never heard anyone say that. But I agree, on the surface it does seem like a contradiction. But you never know what people believe in their heart.

This woman you’re talking about may have just said those things for the benefit of other people who were there that believe in heaven. Or she may not know what is the truth but is taking the expedient side of it. Of course that is all just speculation. If you really wanted to know you should have just asked her.

 

[Hodos]

’m kind of curious why non-adherents of the RC church, or any denomination for that matter, believe heaven awaits them despite their lack of practice, belief or both.

My guess is that people fundamentally reject the idea of original sin and the fundamental impact that it has had on man’s nature. Also, never underestimate people’s ability to engage in syncretism. Lastly, many churches do a poor job of teaching the doctrine of justification.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I’m always bemused by the number of believers who think the same.

Me too.

The middle ground for a Christian is the virtue of Hope, in other words, we believe that Heaven exists and union with God is our ultimate goal.

The two extremes are presumption (“of course I’ll get into Heaven!”) and despair (“I’m too bad to get into Heaven”).
Both are considered sins.

 

[TULIPed]

So believers are not much better off than us non-believers - they gamble on their god, and none someone else’s being real. We non-believers have slightly worse odds because we gamble that no one’s god(s) is real.

Why do you think there aren’t more people making your gamble? Said another way - why are so many people making the God gamble?

 

[GodIsPerfection]

I’m kind of curious why non-adherents of the RC church, or any denomination for that matter, believe heaven awaits them despite their lack of practice, belief or both.

Modern people are steeped in democracy (everyone is equally entitled).

They don’t grasp the reality of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Dan123]

I read recently someone discussing mortality. And he said that at some point someone will have the very last thought of you. Quite poignant I thought. ‘All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain’.

There are three deaths: the first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future, when your name is spoken for the last time.

Had to look it up though.

We non-believers have slightly worse odds because we gamble that no one’s god(s) is real.

I think you took one step too far. Remember there’s all the god’s no one has conceived of. Among them could be a god who’s ‘test’ for getting into heaven is whether you avoided believing in a god for which there was insufficient evidence.

I am reminded of a funeral I attended a few years back where the daughter of the deceased - and ardent agnostic - shared her belief that her father would be in heaven because despite her non belief, she couldn’t bring herself to comprehend that life on earth was all there is.

While it’s not common you can believe in an afterlife without believing in a God. But I doubt that’s what was happening. Is i possible she was trying to do right by her father acknowledging his faith and likely the faith of many in the room?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

So the idea that Heaven is the default destination - that God goes out of His way to get as many in as possible and humans have to go out of our way to be locked out - isn’t entitlement, it’s a sign that the person saying it actually understands the nature of God

Realistically that person’s understanding is probably leaning toward the base then something profound.

 

[FiveLinden]

Why do you think there aren’t more people making your gamble? Said another way - why are so many people making the God gamble?

It is a more like not making a gamble. Some see an opportunity for a bet. I see no chance of winning. The famous story about a gambler who told the poker game he was in was rigged who replied “but it is the only game in town” comes to mind. It seems to me that for many the need to have hope, even in the face of evidence, overwhelms the decision-making processes people use in everyday life. The hope people get is genuine and often improves people’s lives. Gambling is like that. But for me the chances are so vanishingly small I don’t play.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I read recently someone discussing mortality. And he said that at some point someone will have the very last thought of you. Quite poignant I thought. ‘All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain’.

There are three deaths: the first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future, when your name is spoken for the last time.

Had to look it up though.

Well, I’ll be. By David Eagleman from his Forty Tales Of The Afterlife. I don’t know if it was that I actually read or perhaps someone paraphrasing him. Any way, I’ve downloaded the book. If I remember I’ll let you know what I think when I’ve read it.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I read recently someone discussing mortality. And he said that at some point someone will have the very last thought of you. Quite poignant I thought. ‘All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain’.

_There are three deaths: the first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future, when your name is spoken for the last time.

I’m 5 short chapters in. And hooked. I’ll be astonished if I don’t finish the whole thing today.

 

[Neithan]

That of course is assuming that a god’s existence is as improbable as winning the lottery, which is an enormous assumption in itself, and is based on another enormous (and arbitrary) assumption of polytheism as the only live option. Even though the odds of “winning” are always on the side of the theist, the odds are substantially improved by assessing the relative probability of different kinds of theism.

 

[Dan_Defender]

When people reject all teaching, they come up with their own ideas, in a way they are choosing themselves over God. I’ve had atheists tell me: hey even if your scenario is correct, it is called a judgment for a reason. I’ll simply argue my case and point to God how there was no evidence of Him throughout my life. So I’ll win the case and be admitted to Heaven!

 

[Freddy]

When people reject all teaching, they come up with their own ideas, in a way they are choosing themselves over God. I’ve had atheists tell me: hey even if your scenario is correct, it is called a judgment for a reason. I’ll simply argue my case and point to God how there was no evidence of Him throughout my life. So I’ll win the case and be admitted to Heaven!

When followers of a particular religion reject the teachings of other religions they resort to their own ideas. In a way, they are chooosing their god over other gods. They can be heard to say that even if they are wrong (which they never admit to) then they’ll argue their case to the true god and point out that there was no acceptable evidence for Her throughout their life. So they’ll win their case and be admitted into the afterlife!

 

[Dan_Defender]

When followers of a particular religion reject the teachings of other religions they resort to their own ideas. In a way, they are chooosing their god over other gods. They can be heard to say that even if they are wrong (which they never admit to) then they’ll argue their case to the true god and point out that there was no acceptable evidence for Her throughout their life. So they’ll win their case and be admitted into the afterlife!

Well that is off-topic. I won’t get into the diversity of religions. The point is that atheism is the ultimate rejection of God, atheists are the ultimate faithless, the ones who do not want God to exist. They cannot expect anything but to be completely separated from God in the afterlife.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

When followers of a particular religion reject the teachings of other religions they resort to their own ideas. In a way, they are chooosing their god over other gods. They can be heard to say that even if they are wrong (which they never admit to) then they’ll argue their case to the true god and point out that there was no acceptable evidence for Her throughout their life. So they’ll win their case and be admitted into the afterlife!

… the ones who do not want God to exist.

What a strange thing to say.

 

[FiveLinden]

Even though the odds of “winning” are always on the side of the theist, the odds are substantially improved by assessing the relative probability of different kinds of theism.

How is this done, and why has the calculation not led to a world-wide rejection of polytheism?

 

[FiveLinden]

atheism is the ultimate rejection of God, atheists are the ultimate faithless, the ones who do not want God to exist.

Why do you think we do not want God to exist? There are a number of beings I have concluded do not exist who I would want to exist if there was a point in doing so. I could easily ‘design’ a god I wanted to exist. But why would I? And surely the ‘ultimate’ rejection of God would be rejection by one who had perfect knowledge of his existence? Isn’t that what you believe about Satan and his angels? And the fall? Are we atheists really further down the line than these in your book?