Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[Timothy_Piper]

The question came from me, a Catholic & therefore Christian. It’s just when I saw your name & how you bash on the true church of God’s beliefs, it reminded me of how I believe someone said piper is a name for the devil. Now you can see why I asked, but I’m sure it could mean other things also. PS That wasn’t a blessing, but I pray we shall all be blessed to come together as Catholics 1 day & I thank you if you pray for Jesus to bless me.

I do not bash Catholics, for they are in the image of God, just as I am. I disagree with much of Catholic doctrine in light of Scripture and am able to substantiate the truth as revealed in Scripture and if that is bashing Catholic doctrine, then I stand guilty. God said these things were to be expected, but my understanding of the forum is to learn from each other and debate the differences in a friendly manner. I do not back down from the argument that you are wrong because our church says so; because in the end it is what god said and we are commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord , which is to say we, as individuals, by the power of the Holy Spirit in each, are commanded to grow.

 

[SHW]

All generations will consider Mary “happy”; yes she was quite happy and a bunch of other emotions …

“Happy” is not the correct interpretation of this Scripture word in Greek. It is “full of grace.” (graced)

RSV Luke 1:28
And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

This same Greek word (χαριτόω) is used in
RSV Ephesians 1:6
to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Mary was and is full of grace. We venerate/honor her as the Mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus who is God the Son; therefore she is the mother of God (she is not the mother of the Father nor is she the mother of the Holy Spirit).

The mother of the king in the Jewish (Judah) line of Davidic kings is always called the queen. The queen in the Davidic line is never the wife of the king.

So, since Jesus is king of heaven and earth, then His mother is the queen of heaven and earth. She receives her status as queen from her Son as did all previous Jewish queens. Queen Esther was a queen married to a king, but this was not in the Davidic line of kings.

Jeremiah 29:2
(This happened after Jeconiah the king, the queen mother, the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen, and the smiths had departed from Jerusalem.)

Jeconiah is a king in the Davidic line of kings. His mother is called the queen mother.

Revelation 5:5
But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

This is speaking of Jesus. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David.

We honor Mary more highly than any other saint because Jesus honors her as His queen mother because He is of the Davidic line and this is how all kings from this lineage of Kings all honored their mothers and so we follow His example.

If you are not deceiving, then you are just ignorant of how your own defines what worship is. Why Catholics are so offended or embarrassed by the fact that you worship Mary, you worship saints, relics and images is beyond me. Are you saints and Mary not worthy of your worship?

The word “worship” means different things just as the word “Lord” means different things. I recently saw Lord Monckton on TV and He is definitely not God so I do not worship him.

A “lord” is not just God. Lord is also a title for esteemed persons. This is why they and others used to be called/addressed as “Your Worship” at one time. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_worship) But, now we say “Your Honor” instead, which I prefer to use instead of “Your Worship.” However, this does not change the fact that “worship” had more than one meaning in the past. A lord can be a prince or a baron, etc. (in the English peerage) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord.

**
About relics/sacramentals.**

Acts 19:11-12
Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.

Jesus used ordinary elements sometimes in order to heal people. It still is His power that heals, but He uses these natural things as a conduit/means to bestow His healing power.

Mark 8:23-25
So He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town. And when He had spit on his eyes and put His hands on him, He asked him if he saw anything.
24 And he looked up and said, “I see men like trees, walking.”
25 Then He put His hands on his eyes again and made him look up. And he was restored and saw everyone clearly.

Jesus uses His own spit to heal this blind man.

Numbers 21:8-9
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Here, God instructs Moses to have a bronze serpent made so that those who look upon it will be healed.

What happens when the people (many years later) decide to take this same bronze serpent and worship it as a god (false god/idol)?

2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.

God orders the bronze serpent to be destroyed. God did not allow “things” to be worshiped as God. He is the only true God. Only God may be worshiped as “God.”

Numbers 5:17
The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.

These are just some uses of sacramentals (holy water) and relics (handkerchiefs touched to Paul’s body).

2 Peter 2:12
Depravity of False Teachers

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

It is best to not condemn things that are not understand. It is best to have a humble heart and be willing to learn the truth about things that are not understood.

 

[Justy90]

RSV Luke 1:28
And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. NIV

 

[SHW]

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. NIV

Some translators did their best to translate the Greek into English correctly (or the Latin into English), but some Protestant translators sometimes changed the meanings of the Greek words (when translated into English) in order to better fit their own theology. This is why I use a Catholic version such as the RSV-CE if there is a dispute in the interpretation of a word. Otherwise, I use the NKJV online on this forum because this version is the one that many Protestants use and relate to best.

The NIV translates this same exact Greek word as “grace” in Ephesians 1:6
to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Unfortunately, the NIV did not use this same definition for this same Greek word in both Luke and Ephesians.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

“Happy” is not the correct interpretation of this Scripture word in Greek. It is “full of grace.” (graced)

Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you” is context of the discussion, not hail mary full of grace.

This same Greek word (χαριτόω) is used in
RSV Ephesians 1:6
to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Mary was and is full of grace. We venerate/honor her as the Mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus who is God the Son; therefore she is the mother of God (she is not the mother of the Father nor is she the mother of the Holy Spirit).

The mother of the king in the Jewish (Judah) line of Davidic kings is always called the queen. The queen in the Davidic line is never the wife of the king.

So, since Jesus is king of heaven and earth, then His mother is the queen of heaven and earth. She receives her status as queen from her Son as did all previous Jewish queens. Queen Esther was a queen married to a king, but this was not in the Davidic line of kings.

Jeremiah 29:2
(This happened after Jeconiah the king, the queen mother, the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen, and the smiths had departed from Jerusalem.)

Jeconiah is a king in the Davidic line of kings. His mother is called the queen mother.

Revelation 5:5
But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

This is speaking of Jesus. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David.

We honor Mary more highly than any other saint because Jesus honors her as His queen mother because He is of the Davidic line and this is how all kings from this lineage of Kings all honored their mothers and so we follow His example.

God is not a respecter of persons; I have been given as much grace as Mary and every other Christian; but not from the human perspective.

The word “worship” means different things just as the word “Lord” means different things. I recently saw Lord Monckton on TV and He is definitely not God so I do not worship him.

I don’t know why you are so ashamed to worship Mary, saints, relics, statutes and whatever else; we already established “degrees of worship”. I love mint chocolate chip ice cream and I love my wife; both are true, but it is a matter of degree. So lighten up and embrace what you own church teaches on the matter. If you like I can repost it so you can see it again what your church teaches; if they say it is okay, then is it not okay?

Mark 8:23-25
So He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town. And when He had spit on his eyes and put His hands on him, He asked him if he saw anything.
24 And he looked up and said, “I see men like trees, walking.”
25 Then He put His hands on his eyes again and made him look up. And he was restored and saw everyone clearly.

Jesus uses His own spit to heal this blind man.

Numbers 21:8-9
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Here, God instructs Moses to have a bronze serpent made so that those who look upon it will be healed.

What happens when the people (many years later) decide to take this same bronze serpent and worship it as a god (false god/idol)?

Unfortunately; you are confusing God’s object lessons to the people of Israel and to His disciples in place of God going against His own command, but hey you are the ones that claim the authority to interpret Scripture.

God orders the bronze serpent to be destroyed. God did not allow “things” to be worshiped as God. He is the only true God. Only God may be worshiped as “God.”

Numbers 5:17
The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.

More object lessons, or if you will shadows pointing to the substance, which is fulfilled in Christ - just a minor difference. But like I said, who am I to interpret the Word of God, that is the sole work of the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 2:12
Depravity of False Teachers

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

It is best to not condemn things that are not understand. It is best to have a humble heart and be willing to learn the truth about things that are not understood.

I have not condemned anything nor anyone; you are on the defense and I don’t know why unless you are ashamed of what your church teaches, which doesn’t make any sense. Like I said I can repost what your church teaches and says it is okay and it is easy to distinguish different degrees of worship; they explain it quite well and is easily understood.

I don’t embrace it or agree with it, but I’m not a Catholic either and if I were a Catholic I would say “yes I worship Mary, but not in the same way we do God”. How simple and honest is that? What is wrong with it; it is what your church teaches and you do believe what your church teaches.

 

[Magdalena09]

I don’t embrace it or agree with it, but I’m not a Catholic either and if I were a Catholic I would say “yes I worship Mary, but not in the same way we do God”. How simple and honest is that? What is wrong with it; it is what your church teaches and you do believe what your church teaches.

Because it isn’t what the church teaches, simple as that.

I never understand protestants who try to tell Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Because it isn’t what the church teaches, simple as that.
I never understand protestants who try to tell Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches.

There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God…supreme worship, or worship of adoration…according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone;

As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia **(for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

“WORSHIP”. Adoration and reverence paid to God…also for the honor paid to the saints….veneration." (William E. Addis & Thomas Arnold, Eds., A Catholic Dictionary containing some account of the doctrine, discipline, rites, ceremonies, councils and religious orders of the Catholic Church, Catholic Publication Society:New York (1884); w/Nihil Obstat and Imprimitur)

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Adoration
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

No need to be embarrassed nor in denial nor ignorant; it is okay by the Church. Be proud, not ashamed.

The Church’s devotion to the Virgin is not only the fruit of a spontaneous response to the exceptional value of her person and the importance of her role in the work of salvation, but is based on Christ’s will.

The history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the way which leads to Christ and that filial devotion to her takes nothing from intimacy with Jesus; indeed, it increases it and leads to the highest levels of perfection.
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…051997_en.html

Reminder:
There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God…supreme worship, or worship of adoration…according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone;
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia **(for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

Why must I teach you what your church teaches? Are you ashamed or just were not aware? I can show you much more teaching from your own Vatican approved writings, speeches from Popes and literature. “If I were Catholic, I would say yes I worship Mary because…, but not in the same way as God because we teach there are degrees of worship or veneration or adoration…for example” I know more about Catholicism than most think I do; much more I don’t know, just like the average Catholic mostly because there is so much to learn and everyone is at a different place in their walk.

 

[SHW]

Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you” is context of the discussion, not hail mary full of grace.

Both are important. All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

“Full of grace” is just as important as “blessed are you.” The two parts make the whole in describing the dignity of Mary in this Scripture verse.

God is not a respecter of persons; I have been given as much grace as Mary and every other Christian; but not from the human perspective.

No, you did not receive as much grace as Mary. She was already full of grace when the angel appeared to her and asked her to become the mother of our Savior. It was because she was full of grace that she was asked to become the mother of God.

What happened when Uzzah touched the ark of the Old Covenant?

2 Samuel 6:6-7
And when they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. 7 Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Only priests were allowed to touch the ark at special times. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Revelation 11:19-12:1
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

Mary is the ark of the New Covenant because her womb is the first tabernacle of our Savior. Nothing impure could ever be impregnated by the power of the Holy Spirit. If Mary had not been pure/full of grace, she would have been killed because only a pure vessel could nourish a perfect embryo and half of this perfect embryo’s make-up/DNA came from her.

God loves all His creation because He created it all, but He rewards us according to our deeds/works. Some will have greater rewards in heaven than others.

1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

More good works equals more rewards/glory in heaven.

I don’t know why you are so ashamed to worship Mary, saints, relics, statutes and whatever else; we already established “degrees of worship”. I love mint chocolate chip ice cream and I love my wife; both are true, but it is a matter of degree. So lighten up and embrace what you own church teaches on the matter. If you like I can repost it so you can see it again what your church teaches; if they say it is okay, then is it not okay?

I was further explaining it. I was not denying that there are different degrees of worship (latria is for God alone, hyperdulia is veneration of Mary alone in honor of her dignity as the Mother of God, and dulia is for the veneration/honor of all saints other than Mary. It is as you say, “a matter of degree.”

Unfortunately; you are confusing God’s object lessons to the people of Israel and to His disciples in place of God going against His own command, but hey you are the ones that claim the authority to interpret Scripture.

**
What command of God are you talking about?**

More object lessons, or if you will shadows pointing to the substance, which is fulfilled in Christ - just a minor difference. But like I said, who am I to interpret the Word of God, that is the sole work of the Holy Spirit.

These are important lessons/examples in how God ministers to His people in past times and also now in the present.

I don’t embrace it or agree with it, but I’m not a Catholic either and if I were a Catholic I would say “yes I worship Mary, but not in the same way we do God”. How simple and honest is that? What is wrong with it; it is what your church teaches and you do believe what your church teaches.

My posts are not just for you personally. They are for all who read this thread. Catholics are on this forum in order to learn more about their faith.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

I said you said something about picking and choosing concerning the word of God on the previous post and I mistakened you for another poster and **I apologize to you for my error. ** It was great concern to me when someone decides to pick and choose about the Word of God, then claim God reads hearts, then claim to be a Christian…that would be a very self deceived person. I wanted to apologize directly to you before I post the apology on the thread, which I will copy and paste this.

God bless and Merry Christmas.

Apology accepted, but it was a simple mistake. Thanks for acknowledging it wasn’t me who said those things, and Blessings to you, as well.

Jon

 

[Bill_Pick]

no no no…that doesn’t work.

you have to NAME NAMES!

My two bull dogs it and at.

 

[peary1]

Why are you so “sour”? Secondly, what in the world are you talking about? Charitable work, was this something that has been spoken about? Perhaps you have me confused with someone else; i don’t know.

But I pray God pours out the blessing of happiness to you; especially at this time where we all agree that Jesus is our focus and the best Gift anyone who knows Him will ever receive.

Sour? Absolutely not. I’m quite gay…um…happy.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Many non-Catholics don’t hate her, but I sometimes think fundies. I mean, the link below is the absolute proof of it

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hail_mary_hail_satan.htm

 

[Joshua27]

No you are still incorrect. Your understanding of the Second Commandment is wrong. Here are some more images approved by God.
Numbers 21:8-9

“And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed”

Bretheren, Please read commandment #2 in its entirety. Afterwards, reread Numbers 21:1-9.

In commandment #2, what all did God tell the “people” (specifically) not to do?
In the situation of your new reference - after the people cursed God, God send fiery serpants to bite/kill them…and later the people repented (verse 7) - then what did God tell “Moses” to do…?

…My point is God doesn’t contradict Himself. He told the people not to make for “themselves” any “graven images or idols for the purpose of worshiping or bowing down to”. What was the Brass serpent specifically made for? Not even the people were told to do anything in this new situation. If anyone - who was (previously) bitten - (simply) looked upon this thing they would be healed…NOT by worshiping it, but because of their repentance in verse 7. IMPORTANT: There weren’t even told to look at it, but the passages reads “as it comes to pass” (as it happens). The brazen serpent was an erected sign of God for “forgiveness”.

Third Book of Kings 6:35

“And he carved cherubims, and palm trees, and carved work standing very much out: and he overlaid all with golden plates in square work by rule.” This was in the Second Temple.

I had to find this one because in my bible this passage is in I Kings 6:35 (there’s no 3rd book of Kings as far as I know…maybe I got a really old translation).

Please read verses 32 through 35 of the passage. Solomon is designing the temple of God - where the ark is to be placed…and he going to every door - one by one - and carving cherubims and other pictures on the doors. Again, please reread Exodus 20 starting at verse 4. With respect, your last reference in Numbers was a stronger argument than this one…The people were told not to make for “themselves” and graven images or idols to worship. Here, Solomon is carving pictures in all the doors of the temple as designs.

 

[Joshua27]

And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, **this day **thou shalt be with me in paradise."

Please read the two statements below:

(1) “Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

(2) “Amen I say to thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

Did you notice it? A completely different meaning is reached by simply changing the location of the comma.

Research the original recording of scripture and you’ll notice that it has no punctuation marks. To those who originally recorded it, they didn’t need such devices because anyone of the time would already understand.

There is “natural error” in copying any literary work from one language to another. In fact (as pophetic as it is), please read Jeremiah 8:8. Jeremiah comments on how the “pens” of scribes (copiers) naturally lie, because no one can duplicate an original work 100% completely.

So if we match both versions of the above passage to all other passages (many that I’ve included about dealth and sleep), one must ask “which version is truth?”

“Amen I say to thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

 

[wwolverine]

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you. NIV

Hi Justy,

I toohave NIV, and in Luke there is a song called Mary’s song and in it she gives praises to God, and one of the line goes like this “From now on all generations will call me blessed” and not favored.

WISH ALL PARTICIPANTS IN THIS DISCUSSION A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND A WONDERFUL NEW YEAR 2010

GOD BLESS YOU ALL

 

[Joshua27]

Your interpretation of Holy Scripture is wrong. You have no authority to interprete Holy Scripture. Only the church founded by Jesus Christ, the Holy Catholic Church can interprete Scripture and the interpratations I have given you are of the Church. The Holy Ghost does not guide individuals in interpreting the Holy Bible. Arius, Hus, Luther, Calvin, Thomas Munzter, Jim Baker, A. White and David Koresh all thought they could interprete Holy Scripture.

2 Peter 1:28

“Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.”

2 Peter 3:16

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”

2 Peter 1:20 “Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.” (truly…)

What are you saying ? Your statement shows your misunderstanding of Holy Scripture. I will follow St. Paul before I follow you.

Ok. I said I’d follow the Savior’s words before Paul’s and you answer back and say you’d follow Paul’s before me? Sure, that’s fine…I never asked you to follow me.

Here…let me continue your referenced passage:

[2 Peter 1:20-21 & 2:1] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old times by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

So I ask you, “Bretheren, Christ’s words or Paul’s words?”, which do you choose?

 

[wwolverine]

Please read the two statements below:

(1) “Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

(2) “Amen I say to thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

Did you notice it? A completely different meaning is reached by simply changing the location of the comma.

Research the original recording of scripture and you’ll notice that it has no punctuation marks. To those who originally recorded it, they didn’t need such devices because anyone of the time would already understand.

There is “natural error” in copying any literary work from one language to another. In fact (as pophetic as it is), please read Jeremiah 8:8. Jeremiah comments on how the “pens” of scribes (copiers) naturally lie, because no one can duplicate an original work 100% completely.

So if we match both versions of the above passage to all other passages (many that I’ve included about dealth and sleep), one must ask “which version is truth?”

“Amen I say to thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

Joshua, I will accept the text which goes like this, " Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise. I Believe God is ever merciful and His one word could forgive the thief, so why wait expectantly?

If you google, than you will see that every translation uses the comma in a right place except the bible you use.

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua, I will accept the text which goes like this, " Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise. I Believe God is ever merciful and His one word could forgive the thief, so why wait expectantly?

If you google, than you will see that every translation uses the comma in a right place except the bible you use.

Hi wwolverine,

Of course accept what you will. Indeed, every translation (including mine) has the comma where it is seen…but fallable man translated the original scripture…which is why I say that - as truth - God (and Christ) doesn’t contradict Himself anywhere, so we have multiple references of death = “sleep” until the awakening into salvation when Christ returns. So the message quoted by Christ at His death must match the messages He’s given in His earlier discussions. Our current translation does not match due to one simple comma.

Now, is “sleeping” = “waiting expectantly”?

Well, let me ask you: Imagine the time when you had the best sleep of your life; you didn’t stir…you didn’t wake in the middle of this night, and you did not dream at all this night. From your point of view, were you aware of time? Are we ever aware of how much time actually passes during slumber? We can’t be sure whether an hour, a day, a week or a year has passed until we seek a point of reference when we awaken: for most of us its a clock.

…The effect of “sleep” is virtually instantaneous…we enter into oblivion.

Time is relative, so those who “sleep” do not wait. In fact, from their point of view as soon as they lay to rest, they are awakened at the second coming.

…And now I must get a little sleep, as it is 4am my time.]

 

[Justy90]

Hi Justy,

I toohave NIV, and in Luke there is a song called Mary’s song and in it she gives praises to God, and one of the line goes like this “From now on all generations will call me blessed” and not favored.

WISH ALL PARTICIPANTS IN THIS DISCUSSION A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND A WONDERFUL NEW YEAR 2010

GOD BLESS YOU ALL

That’s right. We sing the Song of Mary during lent in our church. It’s a beautiful song as is many of the traditional hymns in our 1982 Hymnal.

 

[JonNC]

Many non-Catholics don’t hate her, but I sometimes think fundies. I mean, the link below is the absolute proof of it

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hail_mary_hail_satan.htm

That website isn’t evidence of anything, other than the fact that they hate pretty much everyone.
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/whats_wrong_with_the_lutheran_religion.htm

Jon