Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[Bill_Pick]

The charge:
“Mary obviously had ‘other children’ because the Bible says Jesus had ‘brothers and sisters’.”
Let us look at the charge itself, as it has no merit whatsoever from the very beginning…
The word “brothers” and “sisters”, as used in the context of the detractors, means a sibling of the same parents. Let us use reasoning and common sense on this issue.

1. The “brothers” of Jesus Christ would obviously have to have the same parents as He.
2. The parents of Jesus Christ are the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit.
3. Children receive their nature from their father.
4. Therefore, Jesus Christ has a divine nature from the Holy Spirit. That makes Him a divine person.
5. If Jesus Christ had brothers and sisters, then their natures would be the same as His.
6. Therefore, all “brothers and sisters” of Jesus Christ would be divine as He is, thus giving us multiple god’s. Not only that, it would give us goddesses, or female god’s as well.
7. The statement, “Jesus Christ has brothers and sisters” is obviously ambiguous and is an incorrect usage of the English language.
8. The false charge that “Mary had other children” assumes that the father of the siblings is
   Saint Joseph.
9. If Saint Joseph is the father of the “brothers and sisters”, then using rule #3 above, would show that the siblings are of his human nature and are not divine.
10. The “other children” of Saint Joseph and Mary, however, would be “half brothers and half sisters” to Jesus Christ, and not “brothers and sisters” as the accusers charge.
11. However, the Bible does not say, Jesus Christ had “half brothers and half sisters” either does it? In fact, it really does not say that Jesus Christ had any brothers or sisters at all.

Bob Stanley

 

[Roy5]

izoid

 Matt. 1:52, in the various translations cited, uses the word 'until' - Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations UNTIL the birth of Jesus.

 I don't know how anyone can interpret that other than that they then had sexual relations, a perfectly normal and expected part of a loving marital relationship. I still don't understand why that idea seems to be so offensive to Catholic theology (probably not to most Catholics, actually).  There is something bizarre and abnormal about a married couple living without physical relations. Likely a good priest would scold a married woman (or man) who deliberately abstained from them today. They are regarded as part and parcel of a healthy married life, which I hope Mary and Jesus enjoyed together.

  May religion become a bridge and not a barrier. Why don't we permit Christians to hold a variety of views on theological and liturgical matters without declaring them 'heretical' or 'unBiblical' or 'wrong'. 

  I was interested to read a Pew poll result recently. All three categories of Protestants opposed same-sex marriage, mainline Protestants by a tiny margin, evangelical and Black Protestants by a wide margin. Catholics, however, approved same-sex marriage by a small margin - 45% to 43% as I recall. Doesn't that say something about how much the laity follows the hierarchy?

 

[PRmerger]

Why don’t we permit Christians to hold a variety of views on theological and liturgical matters without declaring them ‘heretical’ or ‘unBiblical’ or ‘wrong’.

Because then we would have to allow all sorts of insane, insipid or abhorrent viewpoints.

Will you permit Christians to hold a viewpoint that Blacks are inferior?

Will you permit Christians to allow a 56 yr old pastor to marry his 14 yr old sweetheart?

Why do you get to decide what’s an acceptable theological opinion and not them?

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Bob Stanley -

The topic is this position of a personal dislike for Mary among the world’s non-Catholics (which would number well in excess of 5 billion). So far, it seems the Catholic perspective to substantiate this is:

• Those that use condoms must therefore dislike Mary. Okay, I get the point. But what about those non-catholics that don’t use a condom (like me) and all the Catholics that do? Is there evidence that all non-Catholics use a condom and all Catholics do not?
• Those that believe Mary may have had more than one child ergo dislike her. Okay, I understand. So, since my mother had 3 children, you have a great personal dislike for her? Do Catholics hate all women with more than one child? If not, why do they insist that all non-Catholics do?
• Those that don’t pray to Mary must ergo have a great personal dislike for Her. Okay, again, I understand the point. But I don’t understand the relevance. Do you pray to President Obama? If not, does THAT necessitate that you have a profound dislike for the man?

These are the only arguments I’ve seen in this thread to support the issue of this thread: that non-Catholics dislike Mary. And I’m trying - but not succeeding - to follow and understand the Catholic perspective on this.



.

 

[peary1]

MARY AND OTHER CHILDREN

   All these suggest that Mary and Joseph lived as a normal married couple after Jesus was born, sharing physical intimacy, which suggests that they could have had additional children.

There is no historical evidence, and there has never been any historical evidence, that Jesus had blood-related brothers and sisters. The problem with Scripture is the translation of “brothers and sisters” and the term “brethren”. Also, his siblings were noticeably absent during his Crucifixion and Resurrection. Yet, his mother was present, as recorded.

I guess I don’t understand why the Catholic position is to fiercely maintain that Mary remained a life-long virgin. The verse certainly doesn’t suggest that, and without mentioning the references to the brothers of Jesus elsewhere in the gospels. And why is it better to live as a life-long married virgin than to be a married woman and have normal relations with your husband? I guess I’ll never get that. They seem more like a "Holy Family’ if they lived as a healthy, bonafide family. Besides, it seems to make normal sexual relations within marriage somehow inferior to perpetual virginity, which to me is in contradiction to God’s first command in Genesis: “Be fruitful and multiply.”

**Modern Christians seem to have a big problem with God’s first commandment, but I digress. Joseph’s role as foster father of Jesus disappears (along with Joseph) after the finding of Jesus in the Temple. He was twelve years of age at the time. However, in
Luke 2:39-52, it is very interesting to note that there is no mention of any siblings whatsoever. The passage gives us the direct impression that Jesus was the only child in the family.

Remember too, that Jesus had a very special place in His heart for the widowed. One could understand this only if his own mother was widowed. And, in the gospels, Jesus is always referred to as the “son of Mary,” not the “son of Joseph.”

Tradition, too, has it that Mary went with St. John to Ephesus where she stayed until her Assumption. There are no graves or any tradition about Mary staying in Bethlehem or Jerusalem. But there is a strong tradition that goes back to the earliest days that she went to Ephesus. And where were the siblings of Jesus - if they existed - to take care of Mary afterwards? They weren’t there. Again, even in Scripture, the reality of Jesus being the only child of Mary makes sense.

One would also think that the mention of James his brother heading up the Church in Jerusalem would have been a contention, but it isn’t, especially when one realizes that “brother” and “sister” can also mean “brethren” or cousins or relatives in ancient Aramaic. But there is also a tradition in the Church where we are ALL brothers and sisters in Christ, see?**

  Mary certainly deserves our affection and gratitude, but has Catholicism carried veneration of Mary too far? That is the issue between Catholicism and Protestantism.

**You need to read the Vatican II document titled THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, MOTHER OF GOD IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH, Chapter 8, *Lumen Gentium *** to really understand what this is all about:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[izoid]

Bob Stanley -

The topic is this position of a personal dislike for Mary among the world’s non-Catholics (which would number well in excess of 5 billion). So far, it seems the Catholic perspective to substantiate this is:

• Those that use condoms must therefore dislike Mary. Okay, I get the point. But what about those non-catholics that don’t use a condom (like me) and all the Catholics that do? Is there evidence that all non-Catholics use a condom and all Catholics do not?
• Those that believe Mary may have had more than one child ergo dislike her. Okay, I understand. So, since my mother had 3 children, you have a great personal dislike for her? Do Catholics hate all women with more than one child? If not, why do they insist that all non-Catholics do?
• Those that don’t pray to Mary must ergo have a great personal dislike for Her. Okay, again, I understand the point. But I don’t understand the relevance. Do you pray to President Obama? If not, does THAT necessitate that you have a profound dislike for the man?

These are the only arguments I’ve seen in this thread to support the issue of this thread: that non-Catholics dislike Mary. And I’m trying - but not succeeding - to follow and understand the Catholic perspective on this.



.

Why are you so “stuck” on this. Have you not listened to anyone who has corrected you? YOu continue to post untruths regarding what is being said. Is this purposeful? It appears as though you are attempting to paint a very negative picture, one that does not exist.

 

[PRmerger]

Trust me; you do not want to compare her to the “queen of heaven”

I’m not sure what you’re saying, Timothy. Are you saying that we cannot give honor to Mary as Queen of Heaven?

If so, why not?

Do you have a problem with 1 Corinthians 4:8 (New International Version)

8Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich![SIGN] You have become kings[/SIGN]—and that without us!

That is, you get to be a king but Jesus’ own mother can’t be a queen?

 

[TEPO]

Those who don’t love Mary dont fully know Jesus, you say.
Thats a doctrine of your own imagination, sir.
This is exactly the point where I think some Catholic devotion to Mary turns disproportionate, when she is used in the way that you now do, to make a persons relationship with Christ depend on ones relationship to Mary.
As for me, my relationship with Mary depends on Jesus entirely. Not the other way around.
The Holy Spirit leads me to Jesus. Mary in her self leads me to no one. Jesus leads me to to His Father… and then Jesus introduced me to His Mother Mary and told me, “be happy about Mary, because she has been so good to me and brought me so much joy”.

My relationship with Mary became more strained after I heard enough of the kind of talk that you represent, which uses Mary as a scism and sometimes tends to put her in the center. I rather prefer an israeli kind of worship, which is very Godcentred, like also the spirituality of the apostles, and eg. St Patrick.

I’ll tell you what. Since the beginning I have loved especially the image of Jesus as my Brother. Yet when I had my conversion experience it did not happen within the Catholic Church. I know bunches of Christians from all kinds of churches, and all over the churches there are people that have fallen asleep and there are people who love and serve Jesus full of the fire of the Holy Spirit. This is the wish of Mary and she is wholly content when she looks at these people, I am sure. Many of these people do not have a personal relationship with Mary at all.
You can say that, for your self, Mary has made it easier for you to be a good Catholic and you find her a help when it comes to meditating on the fact that God has adopted you so that you are son of God - in a purely human sense, Jesus is not more your brother than any other neighbour - its God the Father who has adopted you in Christ to be his son and the brother of Christ. Dont forget that.

I am happy for you that Mary has inspired you. But dont make Mary into a measure of Christian worship and love for Jesus, in any sense of the word. You are so wrong if you do that.

Peace to you.

 

[rev_kevin]

Matthew 13:55 says Is not this the carpenters son? {Joseph} Is not his mother Mary? {Jesus’ mother} and his brothers James and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? {Jesus’ brothers}
Here we see a complete family, father, mother, and children. The arguement that Joseph was not the father is true but I don’t think Mary and Joseph went around telling people that the father was the Holy Spirit only a select few knew that. And besides would anyone have believed them.
Now we come to Mary, yes she is indeed the mother of Jesus. but she also had other children that are mentioned here. We need to look at the context of what is being said in this passage. Lets put it like this. Is this not the plumbers son? {you} Is not his mother Hilda {your mother} And his brothers Roger, Jose, Sam and Brad?
See a family with a father, mother, and brothers, or are they your cousins being named in this context.
It all has to do with the 2nd Dogma of Mary “Mary Ever-Virign.”
Which proclaimed by the church on Virgin Mary is her “Perpetual Virginity” defined under Anathema in the 3rd canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin 1, A.D. 649 insisting the council that Mary remained “ever virgin.” Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ {ante partum, in partu, post partum}. A belief also re-asserted during the 1st decades o fthe Protestant reformation. Even before that the council of Constantinople 2 {533-554} teice referred to Mary as “Ever Virgin.” The Dogmas proclaiming the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption also refer to Mary as “ever Virgin.”

I believe I’m correct in this.

 

[izoid]

Matthew 13:55 says Is not this the carpenters son? {Joseph} Is not his mother Mary? {Jesus’ mother} and his brothers James and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? {Jesus’ brothers}
Here we see a complete family, father, mother, and children. The arguement that Joseph was not the father is true but I don’t think Mary and Joseph went around telling people that the father was the Holy Spirit only a select few knew that. And besides would anyone have believed them.
It was widely known of Jesus and Mary as He fulfilled the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah. If you think a pregnant teenage fgirl would not have drawn notice I think you have an unrealistic view of that society.

Now we come to Mary, yes she is indeed the mother of Jesus. but she also had other children that are mentioned here. We need to look at the context of what is being said in this passage. Lets put it like this. Is this not the plumbers son? {you} Is not his mother Hilda {your mother} And his brothers Roger, Jose, Sam and Brad?
See a family with a father, mother, and brothers, or are they your cousins being named in this context.
Since there is no word that would be translated cousin, I find it very possible that these individuals were extended family. It was also very common for extended families to live together in that culture.

It all has to do with the 2nd Dogma of Mary “Mary Ever-Virign.”
Which proclaimed by the church on Virgin Mary is her “Perpetual Virginity” defined under Anathema in the 3rd canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin 1, A.D. 649 insisting the council that Mary remained “ever virgin.” Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ {ante partum, in partu, post partum}. A belief also re-asserted during the 1st decades o fthe Protestant reformation. Even before that the council of Constantinople 2 {533-554} teice referred to Mary as “Ever Virgin.” The Dogmas proclaiming the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption also refer to Mary as “ever Virgin.”
I am not sure what you are getting at here?

I believe I’m correct in this.

 

[rev_kevin]

izoid:

1. It was the norm that at teenager was pregnant. Its said that Mary was around 14-15 when she was pregnant with Jesus.
   Yes it was in the OT but did Mary and Joseph go around telling everybody that. Besides Jsoeph didn’t believe her at first so why would anyone eles. Did everyone have angles come to them in a dream like they did Joseph to make him believe.
2. Have heard the cousin argument time and time again and I don’t believe it. What I see is a family, father, mother, and brothers, not cousins. It would not make sence in the way its worded.
   The extended family living together is true but show me where it say they were living with extended family members at this time. If indeed it were cousins it would not say brothers, it would say “relatives” like it says about the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth.
3. What I’m trying to get at is to educate the Non-Catholics about the Dogma of Mary and why the Catholics believe that she never had relations with her husband Joseph.

 

[TEPO]

Those who don’t love Mary dont fully know Jesus, you say.
Thats a doctrine of your own imagination, sir.
This is exactly the point where I think some Catholic devotion to Mary turns disproportionate, when she is used in the way that you now do, to make a persons relationship with Christ depend on ones relationship to Mary.
As for me, my relationship with Mary depends on Jesus entirely. Not the other way around.
The Holy Spirit leads me to Jesus. Mary in her self leads me to no one. Jesus leads me to to His Father… and then Jesus introduced me to His Mother Mary and told me, “be happy about Mary, because she has been so good to me and brought me so much joy”.

My relationship with Mary became more strained after I heard enough of the kind of talk that you represent, which uses Mary as a scism and sometimes tends to put her in the center. I rather prefer an israeli kind of worship, which is very Godcentred, like also the spirituality of the apostles, and eg. St Patrick.

I’ll tell you what. Since the beginning I have loved especially the image of Jesus as my Brother. Yet when I had my conversion experience it did not happen within the Catholic Church. I know bunches of Christians from all kinds of churches, and all over the churches there are people that have fallen asleep and there are people who love and serve Jesus full of the fire of the Holy Spirit. This is the wish of Mary and she is wholly content when she looks at these people, I am sure. Many of these people do not have a personal relationship with Mary at all.
You can say that, for your self, Mary has made it easier for you to be a good Catholic and you find her a help when it comes to meditating on the fact that God has adopted you so that you are son of God - in a purely human sense, Jesus is not more your brother than any other neighbour - its God the Father who has adopted you in Christ to be his son and the brother of Christ. Dont forget that.

I am happy for you that Mary has inspired you. But dont make Mary into a measure of Christian worship and love for Jesus, in any sense of the word. You are so wrong if you do that.

Peace to you.

I shouldnt waste my time with people like you. If you think its acceptable to not love Mary, then it is OBVIOUS that you do not know Jesus. Jesus told us over and over andover to love love love… Now we dont have to love Mry…???

Then you twist my words “This is exactly the point where I think some Catholic devotion to Mary turns disproportionate, when she is used in the way that you now do, to make a persons relationship with Christ depend on ones relationship to Mary.”

You are a waste of my time.

 

[TEPO]

I recommend using Gods word rather than the words of men. In this thread we have words of men parcing the word “worship” . Their final conclusion to this procces is

that its ok to worship Mary, so long as you dont worship Mary. If we stick with what God’s Word says there is a much clearer possiosion, worship ONLY God. The adoration of Mary on this thread has even been minimised by comparing it to the love of icecream, yet we dont see statues of a carton of B&J’s being carried on the shoulders of believers and people dont pray to their haagen-dazs bars!

When you seperate from the Church -you restrict yourself from many gifts. The Holy Spirit works through the Church, not the Bible.

 

[izoid]

1. What I’m trying to get at is to educate the Non-Catholics about the Dogma of Mary and why the Catholics believe that she never had relations with her husband Joseph.

So why is it that Catholics believe these things? Is it not because they are true?

 

[GraceDK]

I shouldnt waste my time with people like you.
.

Thank you for leaving me in peace.
God bless you and grant you His Peace.

Ps. I can certainly spur your brotherly love all over the place…

 

[izoid]

1. It was the norm that at teenager was pregnant. Its said that Mary was around 14-15 when she was pregnant with Jesus.
   Yes it was in the OT but did Mary and Joseph go around telling everybody that. Besides Jsoeph didn’t believe her at first so why would anyone eles. Did everyone have angles come to them in a dream like they did Joseph to make him believe.
   It was normal for unmarried teenage girls to be pregnant?
2. Have heard the cousin argument time and time again and I don’t believe it. What I see is a family, father, mother, and brothers, not cousins. It would not make sence in the way its worded.
   The extended family living together is true but show me where it say they were living with extended family members at this time. If indeed it were cousins it would not say brothers, it would say “relatives” like it says about the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth.
   It is a very viable and true argument. Since you do not believe it we shouldn’t either?

 

[TEPO]

.

I’m TRYING to understand the Catholic perspectives here…

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they use a condom.
Does this apply to Catholics, too? To non-Catholics who don’t use a condom?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they don’t pray to Her.
So, if a Catholic doesn’t pray to President Obama, that Catholic hates him?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they think she had more than one child.
So, if a woman has more than one child, all must ergo have a great personal dislike for her?
How does this point substantiate that non-Catholics really dislike Mary personally?

I personally do not believe that a good Christian could dislike Mary. But to stand by only the Bible and ignore the Holy Spirit that works through the Church, you are losing out…

 

[rev_kevin]

So why is it that Catholics believe these things? Is it not because they are true?

Well it has been said time and time again that we, non-Catholics, need to educate ourselves on the Catholic faith, so that is what I’m doing.
You know the answer to the frist question.
You know the answer to the second question.
Its been hashed out countless times here so I believe you already know the answer to the questions yourself.

 

[GraceDK]

When you seperate from the Church -you restrict yourself from many gifts. The Holy Spirit works through the Church, not the Bible.

The Holy Spirit works through the Church
and He works through the Bible.
He is bigger than both.

 

[PRmerger]

The Holy Spirit works through the Church
and He works through the Bible.
He is bigger than both.

Indeed. That is a very Catholic position you’ve taken!