Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[Dokimas]

I’m not saying she couldn’t, but the scripture reveals that she didn’t. There are instance however where it says his brother Mt 13:55-56 for example, but this is due to a translation issue with aramaic and Hebrew. There is no word for cousin. You see Mary was used for God’s purposes. For what was holy. To bring the living Word in to this world in the form of a Man. Jesus Christ. In the Old testament the items of the Temple were used only for what was holy. Joseph know this would not have slept with Mary.

Hopefully that helps.

Please forgive the my poor spelling.

I’m a poor speller so no big deal.​

Thank you for your comments.​

I’ve responded to the idea of cousin many times. The same word is used for the relationship between James and John, Andrew and Peter. I believe that Kev found a verse that used the term cousin. I’m not sure where it is. Maybe Kev or the other person who found it will share it again.

 

[Kantaram88]

BlackJack774answers below:
1 Yes as stated above John 19:26,27 “When Jesus therefore say his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, BEHOLD THY MOTHER! and from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Thinking of the context of this passage. Jesus dying on a cross. Looks and see his mother and entrusts his mother to John. Not an older sibling. Jewish law would have commanded the former. Jesus had no other siblings.
If we take this in conjuction with Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus said, 19” Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatther, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you …
Jesus commanded John to take the Blessed Mother as his mother. I believe it is only fitting that this is a part of the teaching passed on. We should take her as our mother too.

2 I believe she was filled with the Holy Spirit and born without original Sin. As in Luke 1:30 The angel Gabriel called Mary Full of Grace. Never before had that been used to address a human on earth. Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit through Mary. Joseph was her spouse.

3 Yes. Matthew 1:25 is emphasizing the virgin birth.

4 I’m not saying she couldn’t, but the scripture reveals that she didn’t. There are instance however where it says his brother Mt 13:55-56 for example, but this is due to a translation issue with aramaic and Hebrew. There is no word for cousin. You see Mary was used for God’s purposes. For what was holy. To bring the living Word in to this world in the form of a Man. Jesus Christ. In the Old testament the items of the Temple were used only for what was holy. Joseph knew this and would not have slept with Mary. There is also the ideal that Joseph being much older then Mary, had children from a previous marrage before Mary.

Hopefully that helps.

Please forgive my poor spelling.

Black Jack, wonderful explaination. Being a protestant, as your post says, I believe you have given the full depth meaning to Mother Mary

God Bless

Have a wonderful New year 2010

 

[Janet1983]

I think it is correct to honor Mary.

True. Absolutely. And she is a shining example for us as how we as Christians should lead our conduct towards God.

Does that mean to you that she is the mother of all of us?

No.

Does that mean she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit?

No.

Does that mean she never had ‘relations’ with Joseph?

No.

Does that mean she couldn’t have more children?

No.
I honestly cannot really fathom the extreme lengths some go to to “prove” her perpetual virginity. To me personally it is not relevant for salvation if she had more children after the Lord was born. I might be wrong in my assessment but that certainly does not change my relationship to my Lord, Saviour and Master. I do not think that it is insulting or assaulting Mary to assume that she actually had physical relations to her husband. I don’t think it a problem to believe otherwise either, but I simply don’t believe that and I do so without the slightest intention to insult anybody or diminish anybody’s religious convictions.

To Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

In Him,
Janet

 

[izoid]

I’m a poor speller so no big deal.​

Thank you for your comments.​

I’ve responded to the idea of cousin many times. The same word is used for the relationship between James and John, Andrew and Peter. I believe that Kev found a verse that used the term cousin. I’m not sure where it is. Maybe Kev or the other person who found it will share it again.

I will ask this again and see if you will respond, I know Timothy wouldn’t.

Do you call your christian brethren, brothers or sisters? For instance, how are you brother Dokimas, or, I was just talking with brother Dokimas about that issue.

 

[izoid]

True. Absolutely. And she is a shining example for us as how we as Christians should lead our conduct towards God.

No.

No.

No.

No.
I honestly cannot really fathom the extreme lengths some go to to “prove” her perpetual virginity. To me personally it is not relevant for salvation if she had more children after the Lord was born. I might be wrong in my assessment but that certainly does not change my relationship to my Lord, Saviour and Master. I do not think that it is insulting or assaulting Mary to assume that she actually had physical relations to her husband. I don’t think it a problem to believe otherwise either, but I simply don’t believe that and I do so without the slightest intention to insult anybody or diminish anybody’s religious convictions.

To Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

I understand your desire to follow CHrist but using John MacArthur, an ardent anti-Catholic, in your signature will not gain you much credibility here.

 

[Janet1983]

I understand your desire to follow CHrist but using John MacArthur, an ardent anti-Catholic, in your signature will not gain you much credibility here.

I am not using John MacArthur and I am not trying to gain credibility with my signature.
My credibility does not stem from these things. I am simply of the opinion that these words of his are very much true.
I am not 100% aware of his reputation, but as of right now I do agree with the statement that I quoted. I included his name in the signature because he said it and I certainly would like to give honor where honor is due.
We are going off-topic on this however and I would certainly comment further on this if you would like to send me a private message.

May God bless you abundantly in the coming year.

In Him,
Janet

 

[graceandglory]

I honestly cannot really fathom the extreme lengths some go to to “prove” her perpetual virginity.

That’s the funny part.

So much of Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, leads to the conclusion that Mary remained a Virgin. There is nothing that says otherwise. “Extreme lengths” is called exegesis, or reading the Bible for all its worth. 2,000 years of devotion to the Holy Scriptures makes this clear to the Church. In order to believe she had sexual intercourse, one has to presume she is just like us. It is very hard to imagine life in a world that isn’t as sexualized as ours. It’s is unimaginable to many people that Christians would practice celibacy as a way of life for over 2,000 years. Sometimes we must take off our American blinders to see things from a different perspective.

Mary, Ever Virgin
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
St. Augustine

**
The Virgin Mary and the Theology of the Body**
ourfatherswillcommunications.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TOTBMC&Product_Code=BVTOB&Category_Code=BTOB

"Mary shows us how to accept the gift of our embodiedness, and this includes the God-given sex of the body. In this it is important to note that Mary’s exemplarity of what it means to accept the gift of one’s body means that the body is not an obstacle to overcome but, rather, a gift to be lived. Mary delights in her body, especially in its God-given sex: femininity. It is precisely in her gift of being a woman that Mary was fashioned and called by God to be the Theotokos [God-bearer]. The gift of her body is exactly what helps her to become the Theotokos. Just think of what would have happened if Mary had rebelled against the gift of her feminine body! We would be in a very different situation today. (Mary and the Theology of the Body, pp. 55-56).
*

Mary Loves Her Body
christopherwest.com/page.asp?ContentID=110

 

[graceandglory]

I am not using John MacArthur and I am not trying to gain credibility with my signature.t

Joh MacArthur is well-known to be one of the most anti-Catholic evangelical preachers today…Kind of biased, I would say.

 

[graceandglory]

I’m a poor speller so no big deal.​

Thank you for your comments.​

I’ve responded to the idea of cousin many times. The same word is used for the relationship between James and John, Andrew and Peter. I believe that Kev found a verse that used the term cousin. I’m not sure where it is. Maybe Kev or the other person who found it will share it again.

That is a clear example of why scripture alone plus my fallible interpretation is not enough.
Let’s see, me and my 30 yrs of scripture study vs. God, The Holy Spirit, and 2,000 years of Saints and the Magisterium. I just can’t compete.

 

[Janet1983]

Joh MacArthur is well-known to be one of the most anti-Catholic evangelical preachers today…Kind of biased, I would say.

Whatever else he might have said is none of my concern. I agree with the quote and that is all. This agreement is not a statement concerning his sermons. In my statement I neither support nor condemn his teachings. I simply agree with the statement and acknowledge the fact that he said it.
As this will lead off-topic I will not comment any further. You may however discuss this in a new thread about signatures or simply write me a message.
I appreciate your effort to tell me about his reputation. I will surely discuss my motives with you in a different setting.

May God bless you.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

In Him,
Janet

 

[Cristian_B]

Let’s see where do i start…

BlackJack774answers below:
1 Yes as stated above John 19:26,27 “When Jesus therefore say his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, BEHOLD THY MOTHER! and from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Thinking of the context of this passage. Jesus dying on a cross. Looks and see his mother and entrusts his mother to John. Not an older sibling. Jewish law would have commanded the former. Jesus had no other siblings.
If we take this in conjuction with Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus said, 19” Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatther, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you …
Jesus commanded John to take the Blessed Mother as his mother. I believe it is only fitting that this is a part of the teaching passed on. We should take her as our mother too.

I don’t believe Mary is our spiritual mother. In my opinion, since Jesus was not going to be with His earthly mother anymore (because He died and then ascended), He gave His mother to the apostle to take care of her, as a son takes care of his mother. It was the loved apostle’s duty to take care of Mary until she died or went to “sleep”.

2 I believe she was filled with the Holy Spirit and born without original Sin. As in Luke 1:30 The angel Gabriel called Mary Full of Grace. Never before had that been used to address a human on earth. Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit through Mary. Joseph was her spouse.

The original sin does not pass down from father to son. It would be against Scripture. The original sin changed our nature, to a more sinful one.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezequiel 18:20)

We all have a sinful nature. That is what the Bible says but it doesn’t say that we have an original sin of some sort that every human is born with. Paul says that like the sin entered the world trough one man, so did salvation trough one man. Adam & Eve eating the forbidden fruit is Adam & Eve’s sin alone. The only difference is that through that occasion sin entered our world. We are born quite innocent but with a tendency to break God’s Law. The original sin that passes down from father to son is quite a lie, contradicting Ezequiel 18:20. We are born with a sinner nature, which is a consequence of Adam and Eve’s sin.

4 I’m not saying she couldn’t, but the scripture reveals that she didn’t. There are instance however where it says his brother Mt 13:55-56 for example, but this is due to a translation issue with aramaic and Hebrew. There is no word for cousin. You see Mary was used for God’s purposes. For what was holy. To bring the living Word in to this world in the form of a Man. Jesus Christ. In the Old testament the items of the Temple were used only for what was holy. Joseph knew this and would not have slept with Mary. There is also the ideal that Joseph being much older then Mary, had children from a previous marrage before Mary.

Why do you keep trying to prove that Mary didn’t have sex? This is the story: she was a virgin. An angel came to her telling that God will make her pregnant somehow without having sexual intercourse. Her Son will be God’s Son. After giving birth to Christ while being a virgin, she later “consumed” her marriage with Joseph (had sex with Joseph) giving birth to sons and daughters.

Joseph couldn’t have previously been married. If the earthly mother of Christ must have been a righteous woman, so must have been her husband. The Bible also teaches that Joseph was a righteous man.

And I still don’t understand why are you trying to prove that Mary didn’t have sex. What’s so wrong with sexual intercourse?

 

[graceandglory]

Let’s see where do i start…

I don’t believe Mary is our spiritual mother. In my opinion, since Jesus was not going to be with His earthly mother anymore (because He died and then ascended), He gave His mother to the apostle to take care of her, as a son takes care of his mother. It was the loved apostle’s duty to take care of Mary until she died or went to “sleep”.

The original sin does not pass down from father to son. It would be against Scripture. The original sin changed our nature, to a more sinful one.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezequiel 18:20)

We all have a sinful nature. That is what the Bible says but it doesn’t say that we have an original sin of some sort that every human is born with. Paul says that like the sin entered the world trough one man, so did salvation trough one man. Adam & Eve eating the forbidden fruit is Adam & Eve’s sin alone. The only difference is that through that occasion sin entered our world. We are born quite innocent but with a tendency to break God’s Law. The original sin that passes down from father to son is quite a lie, contradicting Ezequiel 18:20. We are born with a sinner nature, which is a consequence of Adam and Eve’s sin.

Why do you keep trying to prove that Mary didn’t have sex? This is the story: she was a virgin. An angel came to her telling that God will make her pregnant somehow without having sexual intercourse. Her Son will be God’s Son. After giving birth to Christ while being a virgin, she later “consumed” her marriage with Joseph (had sex with Joseph) giving birth to sons and daughters.

Joseph couldn’t have previously been married. If the earthly mother of Christ must have been a righteous woman, so must have been her husband. The Bible also teaches that Joseph was a righteous man.

And I still don’t understand why are you trying to prove that Mary didn’t have sex. What’s so wrong with sexual intercourse?

Nothing is wrong with it. In fact, St. Paul wrote in Eph 5 that Marriage is symbolic of our heavenly union with Christ. Mary didn’t need the symbol when she already had the reality of Christ in her very womb. There was no need for her to look backward to the earthly symbol when she was already living the heavenly reality. Because we hold sexual union in such HIGH esteem, we are able to understand how Mary could forego the earthly symbolic union for something far greater.

Question for you: Why is Mary having sexual intercourse so NECESSARY?

 

[rev_kevin]

Maybe God was not calling you to be either a priest or a minister? Did you ever investigate the deaconate in the Catholic Church?

If I disagree with the teachings of the Catholic church why would I consider being a deacon?

Then why am I a minister if he didn’t call me to it?

 

[rev_kevin]

I pray thee, sir, don’t assign such a rigid definition to the word “pray”. Christians believe that there is life after death. Many even talk to their dead relatives, because to them, the loved ones are alive in heaven. Is this what you believe?

If you really believe that there is life after death, and there is a heaven where the good go to enjoy everlasting life, then why wouldn’t you ask them to pray for you and your needs? Is it any different from getting physically living friends and relatives to pray for your needs?

Yes I believe there is a heaven.
I don’t really talk to the dead, I may think about them and say I miss them and wish they were here but to ask them to pray for me, no I don’t.

I don’t pray to them I see no need to I pray to God and nobody eles.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You’re missing the point, that’s why.

Catholics aren’t stupid. We have had Scripture for nearly 2000 years. We’ve had the teaching of Mary’s perpetual Virginity for longer than we have had the canon of Scripture. So it’s kind of unthinkable that people could have ‘missed’ the so-called ‘clear teaching’ that she somehow became intimate with Joseph, you know? If it’s so clear, why was it not taught even by the very first Protestant leaders?

The point is not that sex in marriage is somehow ‘bad’. (It isn’t.) The point is that Scripture and Tradition clearly show that Mary is more than just some teenybopper whom God ‘uses’ –in the very same way the pagan gods did=**-- **and then ‘throws aside’ back to her human husband. . .

In many Greek myths, Zeus ‘visits’ a human female and conceives a child with her, sometimes at the same time that this human female also conceives a child with her HUMAN husband as well. (for example, there are the twins Castor and Pollux, one born of a ‘human’ father and one of Zeus) The gods don’t care that the woman is married (heck, they’ll transform themselves so that the woman really thinks that she is having relations with her own husband). They use the woman and that’s an end to it. On she goes with her own life having satisfied the lusts of the gods.

Is that the way of Almighty God? Does He ‘use’ Mary to have a son, and then --just like Zeus and the Olympian bunch, let her ‘go on with life’ as though all that mattered was her ‘incubating’ a god?

Because either Mary is no more than a victim of a god’s desire to beget a child. . .and can then go on with her original plan to be wife/mother of her human husband. . .or she is something else. . .something completely different. Rather than being simply an incubator, she is not only the Mother of God (heck, lots of human women, according to the pagans, were mothers of gods, demi-gods, half-gods, etc.), but she is also the spouse of God as well. God didn’t stop being Jesus’ father. . .and God has a rather high view of marriage and the commitment of husband and wife. Either God totally disregarded his own teachings (By taking the wife of ANOTHER MAN–Joseph–and using her as a wife to become the mother of Jesus, then throwing her BACK as though the act of overshadowing her was NOTHING!!!), or else Mary had a completely different relationship --as Catholics teach–in that she was the mystical spouse of God, virginal before and after the birth of Jesus, married to Joseph in a union which did not involve sexual relations but which was perfectly normal and natural to both as they were fully committed to God and His plan for them to raise HIS Son.

 

[graceandglory]

If I disagree with the teachings of the Catholic church why would I consider being a deacon?

Then why am I a minister if he didn’t call me to it?

Hi Rev Kevin,

Your testimony is similar to mine, except for I’m a girl. :curtsey:

Jeff Cavins was raised Catholic, had a born-again conversion experience, became an evangelical pastor, and then studied his way back into the Catholic Church.

You might be interested in reading his story.
amazon.com/My-Life-Rock-Returns-Catholic/dp/0965922839

There are many more testimonies of protestant pastors who also discovered the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church in the Bible. ewtn.com/journeyhome/England_guests.htm

 

[PRmerger]

Then why am I a minister if he didn’t call me to it?

Because, unless you’re claiming to be an infallible interpeter of the Holy Spirit, you could be wrong?

 

[rev_kevin]

This is a simple semantics issue rev kev. In this context, the word "to pray’ just means “to ask”. We ask for their prayers. It is an archaic use of the word “pray”. It is still used in some legal venues, but is most often found in middle English (like Shakespeare).

No, Doki. The Scriptures, like the Apostles, make no distinction between members of the body that are here on earth, and those who have passed into eternity. We are all members of the One Body. I think I missed the post where you dispatched the verses in Revelation about the saints interceding for us.

Yes. It would be wise to assume that none of Tweety’s posts represent the doctrine of the Catholic Church. I realize that sometimes they do, but most of the time, they do not. It is better to err on the side that they are not Catholic in perspective.

Please do not fall prey to Tweety’s disingenuous claims. She does not represent Catholic faith. It is a mystery to those of us that do why she would want to claim to be in communion with a Church that considers her beliefs heretical, but she does.

Prayer is not just asking its telling God how you feel, its praising God, its thanking him. See its more then just asking, although asking is one aspect of praying, its not the only thing prayer is.
It not just middle English {Shakespeare} ex. I pray {hope, wish} you don’t do that.
So yes the word pray has a vast number of meanings, but when you pray to Mary which meaning are you using?

 

[Dokimas]

I will ask this again and see if you will respond, I know Timothy wouldn’t.

Do you call your christian brethren, brothers or sisters? For instance, how are you brother Dokimas, or, I was just talking with brother Dokimas about that issue.

They are not my cousins. Fellow Christians are Blood brothers and sisters by the Blood of Jesus.

 

[rev_kevin]

What do you mean?

Would it make you feel better if we said we’re “talking” to Mary of Nazareth to ask her to interceed, like we’re talking to Mary Martinez from Grace Church?

Is it the word “pray” that you disapprove?

If so–and I’m guessing that it is–let’s discuss that!

Pray can have several meanings. Pray can mean 1) worship. But it can also mean 2) talk to. And it can also mean 3) ask.

We reserve 1, 2 and 3 for God; and 2 and 3 for Mary and the Saints. And even other human beings. I could say to my mother, “I pray you, Mother, to allow me to stay out late tonight.”

Ok. Your point? It still is not required of me to talk to my mom, but I would really be missing out on something by not doing so.

I just don’t see the sence in praying, talking, asking, Mary. When Jesus said pray like this he didn’t say Our Mary, who art in heaven, holy be your name… He said Our Father, who art in heaven, holy be your name… But if it your thing to pray to Mary then do it, its just something I don’t believe in.