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TOMFULLREE
Guest
Here is one possible solution and an excellent suggestion. It is hard to make ourselves and others change. Why not ask God to work His desired change in us and in others?
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catharina
Guest
I truly believe that turning such things over to God works wonders. Prayer is transformative - I wouldn’t even ask for help in changing anyone, simply request that others and self be blessed.
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fix
Guest
I am sad we have reached a point where we think socializing in Church while others are praying and preparing to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is acceptable and that the real problem is with those who want to pray rather than with those who choose to engage in socializing.
Is it not valid to conclude those who want to socialize should turn that over to God and and not be troubled they must remain quiet for a few minutes out of the day?
Is it not valid to conclude those who want to socialize should turn that over to God and and not be troubled they must remain quiet for a few minutes out of the day?
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Sarabande
Guest
Happy B-day, by the way!!!
You are right, praying for them would be a great way of getting irritants off your mind - softening your mind and realizing that there probably things that you do which may irritate others, but you don’t even realize it.
Although, I personally don’t get bothered by noise as I grew up in a very large and noisy family and have learned to block things out, (My neighbors below me are very lucky that I don’t care if they party till 4 in the morning. We sleep right through it.) I also understand the importance of reverent quietude before and after mass - for God and for those who rely on prayerful quiet and don’t know how to block things out. Yes, some older people only get their social interactions at mass, but why not in the vestibule or outside?
My parents, who are in their early 60s, and my 81-year-old grandmother tend to be very boisterous when they cavort with each other - well, mostly my father. I love them for it, but many times after mass they were always really loud when people around them were kneeling and trying to pray. One or two times, after I came out from the sacristy to meet them, I would suggest that we should probably continue the conversation outside. I would point to the people praying. All of them realized that they could be disturbing to the others and they no longer socialize in the church after mass. Even my father will catch himself when he sees someone and starts talking loudly and will say, “Oh, let’s go outside. There are people praying here.”
Perhaps my family are socializing with God in mind - I don’t know there minds, but just a gentle and kind reminder to them of the others around them praying in silence showed that they also needed to be respectful towards them. There is always a time and place for everything to be silent or loud or chatty. I believe for the most part, inside the church it should be more silent. We can be loud and boisterous outside or in the parish hall. A perfect example I found was when I attended an All Saints Day mass at a parish. Inside the church everyone - even most of the children, with the average toddler or baby making peeps and parents hushing them - had a quiet reverence. (I actually love hearing some children sounds. It makes me feel good that we have a lot of new, young Catholics around.
) There was a good and equal mix of old and young there. After the mass in the vestibule and in the parish hall, there were lots of laughter and chatting. Children were acting like normal children in the hall. But they kept the church a separate place.I’m not saying that being quiet or loud in prayer is better than the other. It’s just that I believe there are appropriate ways of conducting oneself depending on the situation.
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maklavan
Guest
It could be that this is a cultural thing. I didn’t encounter noise in church whilst I was working in South Africa, and was stunned when I returned to the U.K. after many years to be greeted by a battery of noise before and after Mass.I am told, at the risk of being slaughtered by by friends from Oz, that the chatting is regarded as normal there. One issue that needs to be addressed ,perhaps as a different thread, is the lack of respect for the Blessed Sacrament and the Real presence.without being judgemental, it seems from their posture and attitude that many Catholics have lost,or never had, a sense of reverence.
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Cat
Guest
This is so precious and honest.
Here are my solutions:
- I will not allow anyone else to irritate or annoy me, or ruin the Mass for me. That’s MY problem, not theirs. If the priest is OK with it, I’m OK with it. It is HIS job to ask people to behave in a certain way (or his job to delegate this responsibility to the ushers). It is not my responsibility to tell them how to behave. It is my responsibility to mind my own tongue and heart and to behave in an appropriate way in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.
- I will always assume the best of others and I will not judge them harshly, as we will be judged with the same measure that we judge. If someone is chatting, I will assume that they truly need human talk and companionship, even though they are in the Presence of the Lord. Or I will assume that they are Protestant and visiting the Mass for the first time, and I will be overjoyed that they will hear Mass and receive a measure of God’s graces just for being there. I will pray for those around me, as we are all on the same journey to heaven together, and I know that I have done plenty of irritating things in the past that need the forgiveness of others.
- I will ask the Lord to help me to concentrate on Him and show reverence when I am in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament no matter what happens or doesn’t happen all around me.
- I will take my grievances to the Lord first. If He directs me to do so, I will take my grievances to the priest. I will NOT take my grievances to others, or stew over them in my mind and stomach.
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homewardbound
Guest
The parish in my hometown has this problem a lot. Last Sunday, when we walked in the priest was the loudest. He was sitting in the last pew chatting up everyone who walked in.
I usually just pray for quiet and for those around being noisy, in general. People talking is much better than being poked hard over and over in the back during the “peace be with you” part because the person behind you thinks you should shake their hand. Thank God for giving me strength and a Christian attitude or that lady…
Thats my only peeve. I don’t like shaking people’s hands, I have social anxiety and Mass is not a social gathering, so I don’t get why I should have to take my focus off of God just to make some rude lady behind me happy by telling her to have a nice day when I don’t even know her nor care what kinda day she is having.
I usually just pray for quiet and for those around being noisy, in general. People talking is much better than being poked hard over and over in the back during the “peace be with you” part because the person behind you thinks you should shake their hand. Thank God for giving me strength and a Christian attitude or that lady…
Thats my only peeve. I don’t like shaking people’s hands, I have social anxiety and Mass is not a social gathering, so I don’t get why I should have to take my focus off of God just to make some rude lady behind me happy by telling her to have a nice day when I don’t even know her nor care what kinda day she is having.
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the_phoenix
Guest
When I want to make sure to have quiet time before Mass, I go downtown and attend the Latin Mass at the indult parish.
Old people do not talk before the Latin Mass, they maintain a respectful silence.
Middle-aged and young people do not talk before the Latin Mass either.
Children, too, I’ve found to be well-behaved before the Latin Mass.
Babies will sometimes cry or squall … which is fine with me, because this is what babies do.
These are my observations anyway, ymmv.
~~ the phoenix
Old people do not talk before the Latin Mass, they maintain a respectful silence.
Middle-aged and young people do not talk before the Latin Mass either.
Children, too, I’ve found to be well-behaved before the Latin Mass.
Babies will sometimes cry or squall … which is fine with me, because this is what babies do.
These are my observations anyway, ymmv.
~~ the phoenix
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turtle18
Guest
I have to agree with the comments Fix made on this.
The noisy people can’t even consider being quiet for one minute. Instead, the rest of us should just suffer while you yak, yak, yak, yak, yak. Again, I ask can YOU “suffer” in quiet silence for five minutes before the mass starts? The typical rebuttal of the inconsiderate, rude person is usually to blame the other person for questioning their behavior.
If you know it bothers other people when you talk before Mass, how Christian is that of you to keep talking? That is extremely selfish, right their in the presence of our Lord. Wouldn’t it be better to show love to ALL your brothers & sisters–after all, EVERYONE in Church is your brother & sisters–not just the people YOU want to talk to. Of course, I am sure you all will flip that around now that if I wanted to show love to my brothers & sisters, I would let them talk, right? But then again, in my experience, people who talk so much rarely ever listen to what is being said to them.
So if somone turned around in the middle of their prayers and asked a total stranger, “What are you talking about? It sounds so interesting I would really like to know?” what do you think the reaction of the talker would be? 1, No, that’s okay you continue your prayers because I am certain it is more important you talk to Jesus. 2. Tell them your life’s story because it is just so fascinating. 3. Stare blankly back at the person.
The noisy people can’t even consider being quiet for one minute. Instead, the rest of us should just suffer while you yak, yak, yak, yak, yak. Again, I ask can YOU “suffer” in quiet silence for five minutes before the mass starts? The typical rebuttal of the inconsiderate, rude person is usually to blame the other person for questioning their behavior.
If you know it bothers other people when you talk before Mass, how Christian is that of you to keep talking? That is extremely selfish, right their in the presence of our Lord. Wouldn’t it be better to show love to ALL your brothers & sisters–after all, EVERYONE in Church is your brother & sisters–not just the people YOU want to talk to. Of course, I am sure you all will flip that around now that if I wanted to show love to my brothers & sisters, I would let them talk, right? But then again, in my experience, people who talk so much rarely ever listen to what is being said to them.
So if somone turned around in the middle of their prayers and asked a total stranger, “What are you talking about? It sounds so interesting I would really like to know?” what do you think the reaction of the talker would be? 1, No, that’s okay you continue your prayers because I am certain it is more important you talk to Jesus. 2. Tell them your life’s story because it is just so fascinating. 3. Stare blankly back at the person.
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catharina
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Thank you for your comments. I guess we’re thinking along the same lines. I’ll mention also that I’m at a fine parish. No TLM yet because our pastor is dying of cancer and the assistants are foreign nationals - all are wonderful priests though but several are still learning English. As far as the parishoners, all are reverent. I’ve never noticed anyone at any Mass using the Church for socializing - and we don’t have the use of the parish hall before or after the Masses. We have a very good service corps to keep the infirm elderly involved with the parish, including regular visits with Holy Communion. I know a few of the older couples who do attend Mass. I know their troubles and their losses.
When I see them in Church before Mass, I always smile and nod at them. I can’t imagine doing otherwise. We are to worship as a parish community - and I know NOTHING about horizontal and vertical but I do know that Our Lord expects compassion from me when I see others who are in pain and bereft. How could I ignore them?
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catharina
Guest
This is just another example of the “Spirit of Newchurch”. It’s not about Christ, it’s about “the community”.
This is why, when I want silence to pray and lift my mind to God, I don’t go to church; I go out in the woods where it’s quiet and I can hear myself think.
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… and you’re not the first - I remember Francis of Assisi doing the same. For that matter, he was only following the example of Our Lord. Still when we come together in worship as a community, what we find is community; it’s no surprise.**
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benedictgal
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**
… and you’re not the first - I remember Francis of Assisi doing the same. For that matter, he was only following the example of Our Lord. Still when we come together in worship as a community, what we find is community; it’s no surprise.**
You don’t understand the point that Wolsely is trying to make. The sad truth is that our liturgies have become more about the community than about God. Even Pope Benedict XVI has emphatically made that point several times in his writings before he became pope and after.
There is a time and a place for meeting and greeting. The sacred space is not such a place. Unfortunately, we have concentrated soooo much on the horizontal (me and my neighbors) that we have forgotten about the veritical (God). Remember, that the first commandment is to love God. Loving God means respecting his House and focusing on His presence in the Tabernacle. When we start treating the church’s sacred space like it’s a meeting hall and chit chat about things that really aren’t important and not pray, as we ought to do, then, there is a serious problem.
I am afraid that we have lost a lot of the sense of the sacred. As a previous poster indicated, it’s rather interesting that those who go to a TLM don’t experience the kind of distractions that those of us who got to the Ordinary Form of the Mass face. Why? It is because the notion of reverence before the Divine Presence is something intrinsically understood and perceived. We have something “greater than Solomon here.”
I really think that this is the point that Jesus was making when he cleansed out the Temple. God comes first. Commerce and chatter can wait until after Mass is finished.
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catharina
Guest
You don’t understand the point that Wolsely is trying to make. The sad truth is that our liturgies have become more about the community than about God. Even Pope Benedict XVI has emphatically made that point several times in his writings before he became pope and after.
There is a time and a place for meeting and greeting. The sacred space is not such a place. Unfortunately, we have concentrated soooo much on the horizontal (me and my neighbors) that we have forgotten about the veritical (God). Remember, that the first commandment is to love God. Loving God means respecting his House and focusing on His presence in the Tabernacle. When we start treating the church’s sacred space like it’s a meeting hall and chit chat about things that really aren’t important and not pray, as we ought to do, then, there is a serious problem.
I am afraid that we have lost a lot of the sense of the sacred. As a previous poster indicated, it’s rather interesting that those who go to a TLM don’t experience the kind of distractions that those of us who got to the Ordinary Form of the Mass face. Why? It is because the notion of reverence before the Divine Presence is something intrinsically understood and perceived. We have something “greater than Solomon here.”
I really think that this is the point that Jesus was making when he cleansed out the Temple. God comes first. Commerce and chatter can wait until after Mass is finished.
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Then you and Wolseley and the Holy Father have seen practices in place that I haven’t seen. I’m certain that each of us is ‘to carry the holy’ and hold a reverent attitude within us, in Church and out. I’m just as certain that raised eyebrows, grunts of dissatisfaction, the shaking of heads and scolding looks while in Church are at least as displeasing to God as minor social exchanges.
Always, first and last, I agree with the Holy Father so it must be true that such events have taken place that I’ve never witnessed. It seems obvious that rebuking others in Church is at least as negative as any chatter one must endure. The only “outlandish chatter” I’ve seen in churches was from very large families in parishes back in Chicago. Yet the parents are clearly teaching the children to attend Mass and to do so quietly and devoutly. I’m very sorry if actual socializing goes on in any church but I haven’t seen it (or heard it). I do wonder if some people would even be satisfied in convents or monasteries or if they would find that poor old Sister X coughed too loudly during Mass or that Father Y’s walker squeaked too loudly as he struggled to stand up.
Intolerance toward the aged (the less obvious point of this thread) is so cruel. **
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benedictgal
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**
Then you and Wolseley and the Holy Father have seen practices in place that I haven’t seen. I’m certain that each of us is ‘to carry the holy’ and hold a reverent attitude within us, in Church and out. I’m just as certain that raised eyebrows, grunts of dissatisfaction, the shaking of heads and scolding looks while in Church are at least as displeasing to God as minor social exchanges.
Always, first and last, I agree with the Holy Father so it must be true that such events have taken place that I’ve never witnessed. It seems obvious that rebuking others in Church is at least as negative as any chatter one must endure. The only “outlandish chatter” I’ve seen in churches was from very large families in parishes back in Chicago. Yet the parents are clearly teaching the children to attend Mass and to do so quietly and devoutly. I’m very sorry if actual socializing goes on in any church but I haven’t seen it (or heard it). I do wonder if some people would even be satisfied in convents or monasteries or if they would find that poor old Sister X coughed too loudly during Mass or that Father Y’s walker squeaked too loudly as he struggled to stand up.
Intolerance toward the aged (the less obvious point of this thread) is so cruel. **
First of all, on a lighter note, I think that there is something wrong with the quote button because our posts seem to bleed into each other.
Now, regarding “intoleance toward the aged”, I don’t think anyone here has made that comment. Nor has anyone complained about people coughing too loud or squeaky noises. Obviously, that cannot be helped. Even the Holy Father has coughed during his homilies and has to take a sip of water. You are completely missing the boat here.
What some of us have been trying to say is that we need to respect the sacred. Remember when Moses approached the burning bush and the Lord told him to remove his sandals because Moses was standing on holy ground? Well, the same concept applies to our churches. Sacred space is that, sacred. The church is not a meeting hall nor is it Grand Central Station. It is the House of God. Jesus says, “My father’s house is a house of prayer.” What part of that you do you not understand?
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catharina
Guest
First of all, on a lighter note, I think that there is something wrong with the quote button because our posts seem to bleed into each other.
Now, regarding “intoleance toward the aged”, I don’t think anyone here has made that comment. Nor has anyone complained about people coughing too loud or squeaky noises. Obviously, that cannot be helped. Even the Holy Father has coughed during his homilies and has to take a sip of water. You are completely missing the boat here.
What some of us have been trying to say is that we need to respect the sacred. Remember when Moses approached the burning bush and the Lord told him to remove his sandals because Moses was standing on holy ground? Well, the same concept applies to our churches. Sacred space is that, sacred. The church is not a meeting hall nor is it Grand Central Station. It is the House of God. Jesus says, “My father’s house is a house of prayer.” What part of that you do you not understand?
I doubt that I’ve said anything that would lead you to believe I don’t understand Jesus’ remark that “My Father’s house is a house of prayer.” Rather I find it insulting and absurd (and frankly false) that anyone would take a segment of the population - the “old” - and blame them for what you’re saying can happen among and in groups of all ages. Now, what part of that do you not understand?
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fix
Guest
I agree. And, of course, it is not confined to any age group. Common curtesy should be our guide. I cannot believe there is even any debate. Why would we think we have no obligation to try and be quiet in Church while others are trying to pray is beyond me? Is that not selfish?
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Wolseley
Guest
Yeah, but if Moses had been in a modern Catholic setting, the burning bush would have been in a closet off to the side, out of view, and he would have invited all of his followers to join him up on the hilltop, where he would have encouraged them to give themselves a round of applause.
Then he would have went down to Egypt and tried to encourage the Israelites to be happy in the diversity of their experience, and to try to respect Pharoah’s viewpoints in a spirit of ecumenism.
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jrnami
Guest
This forum seems full of uncharitable people who don’t respect their elders and are intolerant, all in the name of Jesus Christ, who told us to forgive others as we would want to be forgiven. This thread is a sad reflection on our faith.
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catharina
Guest
Well, it’s certainly made me feel sad. I’ve worked with mentally ill children and psychiatrically impaired elderly for more than forty years and all I can say about the negativity in this thread is: So Sad.
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