Why do other faiths believe we have pagan roots?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rarra1985
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Who says I’m trusting in my own good deeds or works to save me?

Who says I don’t embrace the fullness of Christ?

And… You follow the heretical teaching of Martin Luther so ya, you do have to justify Martin Luther in the same way I call Mormons to justify Joseph Smith, JW’s to justify Charles Taze Russle, Muslims to justify Mohummed.

Carmen - what does it mean to be justified? And what if we were not justified?
 
What does the bible say about baptism of water, baptism of desire and baptism of blood?:doh2:
There are others here who have amply responded to this in a much better way than I could articulate.
 
Baptism - buried in Christ’s death and raised to new life in Christ!

This also includes Christ’s death on the cross PLUS His resurrection.

Jesus came as the 2nd Adam which means there is a lot more to it then the shedding of Christ’s blood.

Everything in the OT foreshadows the NT. Jesus was called the lamb of God. At the time of the passover it wasn’t just the blood of the lamb sprinkled on the door but the Jewish household also consumed the lamb. There is so much more. Jesus didn’t die on the cross just to take our place Jesus also raised back to life so that we too can be raised from the dead in Christ.
Well said. So have you been saved by faith in the complete work of the cross?
Yes or no!
 
There are others here who have amply responded to this in a much better way than I could articulate.
No. No one has given me scripture references that mention any of these baptisms.

Claims outside of Scripture are not acceptable or prove thesr baptisms are ordained by God.
 
No. No one has given me scripture references that mention any of these baptisms.

Claims outside of Scripture are not acceptable or prove thesr baptisms are ordained by God.
Scripture alone is a one-legged stool. Catholics have three: 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. Magisterium (biblical God-given authority to the Church on faith and morals), and 3. Sacred Tradition, (with a capital “T”, not the small “t” disciplinary traditions.)

Have a blessed day!
 
What does it mean to be justified? And what if we were not justified?
The bible has the answer to that question. Go back and read the scriptures I have posted. Or do a search on faith. We are justified by faith. If you are not justified…I guess you can work that out for yourself.

I don’t rely on my own interpretation of scripture. I rely on the bible’s truths becoming a reality in my life. In my walk with God. I know nothing. I stay connected to God. If I do that then I am doing what God says I need to do to live in Christ as branch that has been grafted in to the vine. I abide in Christ. If I stop doing that I will wither away and God will cut me off the vine. Abiding is a way of living and thinking. It’s all about Christ, His Word and His will.
Abide in the vine.
 
Scripture alone is a one-legged stool. Catholics have three: 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. Magisterium (biblical God-given authority to the Church on faith and morals), and 3. Sacred Tradition, (with a capital “T”, not the small “t” disciplinary traditions.)

Have a blessed day!
hmm sounds nice but are you being sarcastic?

Anyway, sounds like the one legged stool isn’t enough to use to back up the baptisms that are giving believers such important stuff.

The bible is really the only thing God gave you that you can stake your life on.
You are staking your life on something some one said but isn’t in scripture. Your call. I don’t buy it.
 
No. No one has given me scripture references that mention any of these baptisms.

Claims outside of Scripture are not acceptable or prove thesr baptisms are ordained by God.
Ok I will play Carmen.

Do you believe every infant and child killed goes to heaven? Where is that in the bible?

Do you believe in child dedications? Where is that in the Bible?

Do you believe in the Bible alone? Where does the Bible say that all truth is in its pages?

How do you know what books are even in the Bible? There is no where in the Bible that dictates a list of things?

Where is the sinners prayer in the Bible?

Where does the Bible describe someone like John Smyth coming and reinventing the faith?

Where does the Bible say that the church would fail and need to be reformed?

The sooner you realize you aren’t realky following the Bible Alone the better. At least be honest with yourself…you are following a baptist tradition regarding the bible. We could go on and on with this stuff and even pair you against other baptists for comparison
 
hmm sounds nice but are you being sarcastic?

Anyway, sounds like the one legged stool isn’t enough to use to back up the baptisms that are giving believers such important stuff.

The bible is really the only thing God gave you that you can stake your life on.
You are staking your life on something some one said but isn’t in scripture. Your call. I don’t buy it.
As stated in Sacred Scripture, “the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. As stated before, the Church existed before the apostles wrote the words.

I am not being sarcastic, I tried to provide a picture to help you understand where Catholics are coming from, and that it is scriptural.

Peace!
 
The bible has the answer to that question. Go back and read the scriptures I have posted. Or do a search ofn faith.
Yes, I know and believe the bible has the answer to this question but I ask you this question so that we can get on the same page because somehow you either miss what I’m saying or you disregard it because you don’t want to think that you may be wrong. So, you ignore the question and instead of answering the question you just tell me to read the bible.
We are justified by faith. If you are not justified…I guess you can work that out for yourself.
YES, justified by faith but not faith alone
I don’t rely on my own interpretation of scripture. I rely on the bible’s truths becoming a reality in my life. In my walk with God. I know nothing. I stay connected to God. If I do that then I am doing what God says I need to do to live in Christ as branch that has been grafted in to the vine. I abide in Christ. If I stop doing that I will wither away and God will cut me off the vine. Abiding is a way of living and thinking. It’s all about Christ, His Word and His will.
Abide in the vine.
You rely on the bible and more specifically the word becoming a reality in your life. Others would say they rely on the Holy Spirit. But who’s to say you’ve heard right? I mean, Mormons say they rely on the Holy Spirit too… Muslims say they rely on the Holy Spirit. Who heard correctly? How do you know that you have the truth? By whose authority? You say the bible but logically it still is your own interpretation of the bible. So I say again, how do you know you are right? What makes you so sure the Catholic Church is wrong? Bottom line is, it’s based upon your own fallible interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
 
Scripture alone is a one-legged stool. Catholics have three: 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. Magisterium (biblical God-given authority to the Church on faith and morals), and 3. Sacred Tradition, (with a capital “T”, not the small “t” disciplinary traditions.)

Have a blessed day!
This is a good analogy! A one legged stool cannot stand on it’s but a 3 legged stool can … Love that! 🙂
 
Carmen - before the canonization of Sacred Scripture what did the Church have?

The Church didn’t always have the bible so how can you say you only rely on the Bible when the first century church didn’t have the Bible?

What came before the Bible? There was Jewish Sacred Scriptures we know as the Torah and well what we know it as the OT. What existed before the Bible? Tradition!

So what did the early Church do before the Canonization of Sacred Scripture?
 
I think Christianity wisely took on board some local traditions. There is a lot of evidence for this in the Celtic Church. And it has to be said that some pagan beliefs (like Limbo) sneaked their way in too
 
I guess we can agree if the church has founded it’s pillars upon the belief that we are saved by believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That He rose again and ask God to forgive us of our sins. Asking Jesus to come into our lives and help us live fir Him. That His blood brings us into a new covenant with God. The circumcision of our heart. Circumcision was the old covenant has been done away with. God knew we could not keep the law. But now Jesus had offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice that the blood of bulls could never pay. We are sanctified by His blood. Not by water. If by water, then why did Jesus die for us?
I am covered by the blood of Jesus. When God looks at me, He sees the blood of His Son. I am clothed in His righteousness.

His blood fulfills the Law and there is nothing more that we can do to pay for our sins. I am saved by faith alone, not by my works, nor any penance, or good works. If I could be saved by my deeds or penance then Jesus’ death and resurrection are not enough to pay for my sins.

Baptism by water was not what saved the man crusified next to Jesus. The man believed that He was the Son of God and admitted he was a sinner, he said to Jesus that He was innocent but he wad deserving of death. Jesus said this day you will be in paradise with Me.
He was forgiven. He wasn’t water baptised. Luke 23:44-45 for exact words.
It’s called Baptism of Desire. We can discuss it another time.
I read Padre pio. I had no idea that people believe water baptism sanctifies.
What about the blood of Christ. At passover they sprinkled blood on the door posts. The angel passed these and those inside were saved from death.
Carmen
Carmen-

Thanks for the preaching. It’s always nice to be reminded of the basics of our faith, and I appreciate your high view of the Blood of Jesus. :yup:

For now, let me focus on this: If Jesus had not died upon the cross, being baptized into Christ would be meaningless. His death and resurrection make everything else possible.

We are baptized into Christ, and as a result, we died with Him.

Romans 6:3
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

It certainly appears that water baptism is a really big deal…one that Paul was quick to address in the middle of the night with the Philippian jailer, one that Peter insisted upon even with those upon whom the Holy Spirit had already fallen.

👍
 
I think Christianity wisely took on board some local traditions. There is a lot of evidence for this in the Celtic Church. And it has to be said that some pagan beliefs (like Limbo) sneaked their way in too
Can you find in the Catechism doctrine of Limbo vs Purgatory?

I don’t think so…

However, my Pagon friend told me that his ancestors pretended to convert to the Catholic Church to escape the “witch hunt” … His words not mine.

Also, you look at how many Catholics are uneducated about the Catholic faith and how many Catholics have wrong beliefs, it’s therefore easy to believe that a number of Catholics have used Limbo and Purgatory to mean the same thing or to wrongly believe in the state of Limbo despite what the Catholic Church has officially taught.

There are some Catholics that believe gay marriage is acceptable and that the Catholic Church should change her teaching on this. So just because Catholics believe some doctrines or teachings that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church officially teaches it. Similarly, the Gnostic gospels were believed by some ancient Catholics but again that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church affirmed the Gnostic gospels.

So let’s make a distinction between what Catholics have falsely believed vs what the Catholic Church has officially taught with Magisterial Authority.
 
Can you find in the Catechism doctrine of Limbo vs Purgatory?

I don’t think so…

However, my Pagon friend told me that his ancestors pretended to convert to the Catholic Church to escape the “witch hunt” … His words not mine.

Also, you look at how many Catholics are uneducated about the Catholic faith and how many Catholics have wrong beliefs, it’s therefore easy to believe that a number of Catholics have used Limbo and Purgatory to mean the same thing or to wrongly believe in the state of Limbo despite what the Catholic Church has officially taught.

There are some Catholics that believe gay marriage is acceptable and that the Catholic Church should change her teaching on this. So just because Catholics believe some doctrines or teachings that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church officially teaches it. Similarly, the Gnostic gospels were believed by some ancient Catholics but again that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church affirmed the Gnostic gospels.

So let’s make a distinction between what Catholics have falsely believed vs what the Catholic Church has officially taught with Magisterial Authority.
I don’t understand this at all. Are you saying that we were never taught to believe that Limbo was ‘a place in Hell’
 
The early fathers of the 1st century church did not baptise infants.
How do you know this?
In the 4th Century Constantine changed Christianity into a state religion. He appeased the pagans and introduced pagan rituals. He introduced baptising infants.
Constantine’s Edict of Milan was issued in AD 317. So, if Constantine introduced infant baptism sometime after that date, why were the ECF’s discussing infant baptism before that time?

Here is just one - Cyprian - discussing not WHETHER infants should be baptized (this was a given) but how quickly: And this was nearly a century before you claim Constantine instituted the practice of infant baptism.

Cyprian (died AD 258)

“Should we wait until the eighth day as did the Jews in circumcision? No, the child should be baptized as soon as it is born.” (To Fidus 1: 2).

“In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man… Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision… we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another” (Letter 58 to Fidus).

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 64:2).

“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 64:5).

And then there is Hippolytus who wrote even earlier:

Hippolytus (170-236 AD)

“And first baptize the little ones; and if they can speak for themselves, they shall do so; if not, their parents or other relatives shall speak for them.” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

**Carmen-

Why were these Early Church Fathers advocating the baptism of infants within days of their births more than 100 years before the legalization of Christianity by Constantine?**
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
And it has to be said that some pagan beliefs (like Limbo) sneaked their way in too
The early Church struggled against the heresy of Gnosticism.

Logical conclusions - Some early Christians (Catholics) believed the Gnostic Gospels.

The Catholic Church officially called Gnosticism heretical teaching even though the Gnostic Gospels sneaked their way into the church but I point out the Catholic Church condemned Gnostic teachings.

Now take a look into the teachings of Limbo:

Did the Catholic Church make the teachings of Limbo official with Magisterial Authority or did some Catholics wrongly believed in Limbo or confused Limbo as being the same as Purgatory?

Today some Catholics affirm gay marriage but the Catholic Church has not and most likely never affirm gay marriage as an official Majesterial teaching / Majesterial Authority ie Papal Authority.

Just because some teachings sneaks its way into the Church that doesn’t mean that teaching is affirmed by the Majesterium making it official Catholic teaching.

My point is this,

The teaching of Limbo. Was that teaching officially taught by the Church? Or did some Catholics wrongly make Limbo and Purgatory to be the same as calling Purgatory Limbo?

It’s important to make a distinction behind what some Catholics believe and what the Catholic Church officially teaches because Catholics can be uneducated about our Catholic Faith… (One of many reasons Catholic Answers was developed.)
 
The bible has the answer to that question. Go back and read the scriptures I have posted. Or do a search on faith. We are justified by faith. If you are not justified…I guess you can work that out for yourself.

I don’t rely on my own interpretation of scripture. I rely on the bible’s truths becoming a reality in my life. In my walk with God. I know nothing. I stay connected to God. If I do that then I am doing what God says I need to do to live in Christ as branch that has been grafted in to the vine. I abide in Christ. If I stop doing that I will wither away and God will cut me off the vine. Abiding is a way of living and thinking. It’s all about Christ, His Word and His will.
Abide in the vine.
And Yet you ignore Peter saying that we are NOW saved by baptism so you ignore those uncomfortable scriptures. You rely on scriptures but explain why Jesus never said write but said preach. What happened to those people who did not have the bible as you have. It wasn’t totally compiled until around 300 I believe. Oh and it took another hundreds of years before the populace could read.
Recently I had a discussion with another Baptist and she too could not articulate what justification meant.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top