Why do people leave the Catholic Church?

[michaelcollins]

(continued from previous post)

If you really want to know about Fred Phelps, go to his site. I wouldn’t recommend it, though. It’s pretty vile.

The difference is that if one’s conscience is properly formed, it will be in accord with the Church’s **infallible **teachings and in accord with the will of Christ.

And what makes you an infallible interpreter of the Bible?

Jesus didn’t build is movement upon a rock. He built a CHURCH.

Yes, I emphatically disagree. Jesus built a Church. Those are His own words. Why would he establish a church, and put someone at the head of it, if all he wanted to do was have a movement? Why all the teachings about community if he did not intend to establish one?

I would not post the fred philips site for anyone, it is disgusting and he is evil. I cannot think of a reason to give him any publicity at all.

 

[josie_L]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO SPIRIT MEADOW, her words are in black

How do you conclude that the followers are demanding the change rather than the clergy leading the flock in this? And exactly what teachings have changed in the last 20 years in your estimation?

I think he means that the TEC may have been pressured by society at large to conform. I think the changes he may be speaking of are gay marriage, actively married gay bishops, and female priests.

So no Pope has ever done wrong? Ever? There are instances of double papacies. Were both right? Is it just quite convenient to declare that in the end the Spirit repairs the error? Do you not concede for instance that the Church has said rather conflicting things on evolution for instance? As to Galileo? On the issue of limbo? On the type of mass? Many consider that the only valid mass is the Roman Rite I believe?

Some Popes have in the past done a lot of wrong but fudging with doctrines was not one of them. The Holy Spirit within the Church does not teach error so there was no need to repair anything. The Church is infallible when she speaks on matters of morals and faith not science. And please remember Galileo was also wrong in his conclusion, he insisted on the heliocentric view of the Universe (proposed by Copernicus 2 centuries earlier) but that the Sun stood still, which went against scripture which stated that the Sun was in motion. So the Church wasn’t exactly wrong (it never denied that the heliocentric view was right but it was not established fact at that point). Limbo is speculation not Dogma, as for people preferring the roman rite mass to others that is just what it is a preference.

It seems to me the danger in what you claim is that you don’t have to police your church at all. It be definition cannot do wrong. It must be right. This I would argue is a dangerous thing. I am reminded that some people in Germany thought they had no right to oppose Hitler because Romans said we must follow our authorities. Moreover, do you agree with the manner in which the priest scandal has been handled? Many would say, that almost as worse as the behavior of individual priests has been the manner of trying to hide it that went on so long in the Church. While other churches may have similar problems with this kind of moral turpitude, surely you don’t believe Jesus kept the Church from error in this instance?

Jesus said to the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into ALL TRUTH, did Jesus lie? And if he didn’t as we know he didn’t, somewhere there is a Church that is leading its members into ALL TRUTH. As for the Church and the priest scandal, no it was not dealt with properly and I hope the Church learned its lesson well, it has suffered greatly for this. I hope you know that the majority of sex scandals in the Church were committed by homosexual priests, I believe it was 81% who claimed sexual abuse by a homosexual priest (1960’s till today). The Church is trying to rectify this by having psychological/ screenings tests done before any male can enter Seminary. I think you are mistaking infallibility with impeccability, there is no such thing as a Holy church with all Holy members, there is however, a holy unified apostolic Church with saints and sinners, that Church for me is the Catholic Church.

But if I hear what you are saying correctly, you believe that when the church speaks dogmatically, your right of conscience is gone?

My conscience is not God’s conscience. I must have a very well informed conscience to make very well informed decisions. I believe there are those who bury their consciences with sin, and it thus becomes harder to establish Truth and morality. Our consciences are dependent on our obedience to God and our diligence in preserving holiness.

The Church is being led by the Holy Spirit and therefore is the Conscience of God speaking to us, there is nothing wrong in this view. It is biblical (although it does use the words conscience of God). The Church is not asking for us to give up our conscience but mayhap it is asking that we evaluate our conscience to see whether it is or isn’t well informed I think your conscience is different from my conscience. There is a danger of moral relativism if you think this way.

If you could point me to the place where Christ said that I should give up my conscience to any church, I’d be happy to read that. It seems he was protesting that his faith was wanting and in fact he was the dissenter vis a vis the Jewish faith he was raised in and practiced all his life.

He was not protesting his faith so much as protesting against those who were abusing it, that is, the Pharisees and Sadducees who were distorting the faith.

I have said before, I don’t believe Jesus started a church. He certainly started a movement within an established faith. It was not until after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD that the Christians were formally put out of the temple as Jews, at least if I recall my history correctly. Jesus I believe started a movement of which he was the leader. That he actively intended to set up a separate institution is I think on some faulty ground. In any case, that would be the Church catholic, universal, of which all Christians are part of. I know of course you don’t agree.

Yes, Jesus did start a movement of which he was the leader, but that movement still needed leadership and guidance once he was taken into Heaven, even more so after his death (because it needed to be led into ALL TRUTH) that leadership was given to the Apostles, wherein Peter was given an even greater authority. This movement had a hierarchy and was visible and had Peter has its earthly head.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Marsha I think you misunderstand me completely. When I say choose doctrine I refer to chosing to be Catholic as opposed to Lutheran or Anglican, or Methodist, etc.

Then you didn’t mean choose doctrine, you meant choose denomination.
SpiritMeadow;4848917:

Roman Catholicism it seems to me is no different than any other in this respect. I went through a year long RCIA process, designed to teach me what I was entering to determine whether I could agree with the doctrine as given. That seems proper and right. No faith should ask, and your’s certainly doesnt, a person to join it without fully understanding what it teaches. Only then can one make a rational decision.

So you went through RCIA and assuming that the RCIA program was thorough and accurate, you learned what the Church doctrines are so you could determine whether you agreed with them and could live by them (I think a more correct term would believe rather than agree.) Since you describe yourself as a former Catholic, I assume that you decided you agreed with these doctrines, but then you left because you didn’t agree with them? What’s up with that? Did you never really agree/believe or did you just change your mind?

I don’t entirely agree with your premise as to one having to accept all or nothing. As you know, most Roman Catholics differ with the church on some issue or several, yet they remain in the Church. There are numerous groups, at least 6 or so that I know of, that differ from church teaching in some way. And polling suggests that a majority of Roman Catholics voted for Obama, support the right to choose, use contraception, and certainly believe that other faiths offer salvation through Christ. Are you of the opinion that all these people should leave and that the RCC should be peopled by only those who agree on everything?

The majority of Catholics aren’t actually Catholic. There is no such thing as a “cafeteria Catholic.” One is either loyal to the Magisterium or one isn’t. I don’t say that these pseudo-catholics need to leave the Church, what they need to do is surrender their will to God and become genuine Catholics. As for the alleged majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, when the statistics are broken down by frequency of Mass attendance you will find that the majority of Catholics who attend Mass weekly and/or daily did NOT vote for Obama.

 

[Salonika]

michaelcollins:

The point is there are reasons many catholics here have an “attitude” it has to do with both their knowledge of the posters true beliefs about them and the fact many refuse to believe what we say is true about our beliefs but continue to espouse what they have been told we believe. the quote that almost no one would disagree with the real teachings of the church but almost everyone would disagreee with what they have been told the church teaches(paraphased is certainly true.

In some cases it may be knowledge of the posters true beliefs but in other cases it seems to be from assuming the posters beliefs from one (or more) words or comments.

An example give the impression/state that you are a feminist and you are attacked by some posters and it doesn’t matter if you explain that you want choice for women they still say you really want to be a man. Say you don’t believe in the draft at all and you are told you are evading the question of whether women as well as men should be drafted.

Again I find it interesting that some posters assume that all we need to be told is the Catholic Church’s teaching and we will agree. I find that presumptuous in two ways - assuming that I do not know and assuming if I did know I would agree. Also I want to be told why as well as what. That can seem presumptuous too to some posters.

 

[Salonika]

Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow

Roman Catholicism it seems to me is no different than any other in this respect. I went through a year long RCIA process, designed to teach me what I was entering to determine whether I could agree with the doctrine as given. That seems proper and right. No faith should ask, and your’s certainly doesnt, a person to join it without fully understanding what it teaches. Only then can one make a rational decision.

Reply by Marsha Adams

So you went through RCIA and assuming that the RCIA program was thorough and accurate, you learned what the Church doctrines are so you could determine whether you agreed with them and could live by them (I think a more correct term would believe rather than agree.) Since you describe yourself as a former Catholic, I assume that you decided you agreed with these doctrines, but then you left because you didn’t agree with them? What’s up with that? Did you never really agree/believe or did you just change your mind?

Thought I would give my and only my answer to this.

I left a Church (not the Catholic Church) because as I came to understand some doctrines and their implications more fully I realised that I did not, and could not, agree with them.

Did I never really agree? In one way I never agreed because what I took on was partial.

Did I change my mind? No, because I never believed the real doctrine.

 

[skycastles79]

I wonder if many leave the Church because the Protestant Churches are or seem so much more into a sense of community. If you need anything they seem to be available for you immediately and the will back you up. They bring a sense of togetherness and solidarity and spiritual self esteem. I do not knwo how much help you can actually get from a Catholic Parish when in need. I have never asked for help. I still need to find out but I have a hunch that Protestants are much more disciplined and organized in terms of reaching out to help people who have a present need for anything that has to do with survival and social companionship.

 

[sambos671]

I had not proceeded that far. I was admitted to become a postulant. It was of course before I married.

Let me ask you this. Do you find is as offensive when Roman Catholics claim that the reason God allows Protestantism is because unlike themselves, many people find Roman Catholicism too hard? Thus they need a watered down version of faith that is easier for them? If you do, then I would happily agree that I was too harsh. But in general I would claim that it is easier to accept doctrine that is decided for you rather than have to go through the very long process of studying, praying, and investigating for oneself. There are countless threads wherein someone here has a question and begins it thus:
“I have no idea if the Church has a position on this or not. If it does, I of course agree with the Church.”

That does not sound like proper use of one’s God given brain.

As to the issue of homosexuality and women. I believe that if the scriptures are properly understood, that they present no bar to loving homosexual union. I believe that women WERE leaders in the early church and that their contributions have been largely covered up and surpressed. I believe there is no biblical prohibition to women’s ordination, and that on the contrary it was assumed in the early church.

To say that I support the use of contraception or its availabilty is not to suggest that I support wanton sexual behavior on the part of children. Fully 90% of all Catholics use contraception. I find nothing in the bible that requires that we burden the planet to the point that we don’t care for all people simple to procreate.

Sex is inevitable between humans and that has always been the case. A healthy understanding of it, coupled with proper and full education always ends up doing more to prevent unwanted pregnancies, abortion and the transmission of STD’s. At least this seems clear from ennumerable studies and is why that more and more states are opting out of “abstinence only” funding.

The question was put to us why those of us who left did so. The fact that my reasonings are not yours does not make them rude. Other than the one sentence which I agree was provacative, the rest was simply my reasoning. You may find my reasons unacceptable, and I would expect you to, but that was not the issue was it.

You are entitled to your opinion. I could as easily say that most of your post went to denegrating liberals. Should I call that rude too? Or is that merely you stating your opinion?

I’m sorry about some of that post. I was in ill humor. Pardon me. I entirely disagree with you about Homosexual union however. There is nothing in scripture to support it. In fact, quite the opposit. I’m tired of the same use of Davids love for Jonathan as an indicator of homosexual love. I have a male friend who I love very much and want the best for him but I did not have a homosexual union with him and neither did David. The fact is love is not limited to sexual relationships.

My view about people leaving the RCC is that they have no real idea what their taught. I mean I was musing the other day that as a child I always thought that the very last responsatory for mass was because everyone felt the way I did. The Priest says “this mass has been conclude go in peace” and the reponsitory was “thanks be to God”. My imagination always sees the congregation letting out a sigh of relief (as in thanks be to God its over). Somehow many catholics when going to mass turn on the remote control and “blindly” follow the service. Not realizing what they are actually saying or doing. It seems that many have more consern over “doing things right” such as when to genuflect or bow before the Eucharist not realizing that these things are forms of devotion rather than a formula to “get the sacrifice right”. And the focus comes off what is actually going on. Catachisis. I think I threw off our preist when recieving the Eucharist last sunday. Most people at my parish seem to hobble their way up to the priest with a dejected look and ritually take the Eucharist. Almost as if saying I’m miserable (which some are I’m sure). I walked up with a smile on my face (not purposely but because of my expectation on recieving Christ) and when the priest said “the body of christ” my grin became a full on smile as I said “amen” knowing full well I was saying “so be it”. He saw my smile and unexpectedly smiled himself. My sins are forgiven and I was partaking the in Lord. How could I not rejoice? However, many miss this because for them its simple ritual. And it is these that misunderstand their faith an move on to other churches when they actually connect with what the Gospel is saying. That’s my contention anyway.

 

[HappyRevert]

I wonder if many leave the Church because the Protestant Churches are or seem so much more into a sense of community. If you need anything they seem to be available for you immediately and the will back you up. They bring a sense of togetherness and solidarity and spiritual self esteem. I do not knwo how much help you can actually get from a Catholic Parish when in need. I have never asked for help. I still need to find out but I have a hunch that Protestants are much more disciplined and organized in terms of reaching out to help people who have a present need for anything that has to do with survival and social companionship.

I have to say that is completely wrong with respect to my parish. We have recently had quite a few severe illnesses and deaths within our parish and in every single instance, those in need spoke about how they were overwhelmed with kindness and help to include meals, house cleaning, assisting with children if necessary. I won’t even go into our Vincent De Paul society that gives food and help to anyone (non-Catholics or Catholics, it doesn’t matter) who asks. I think perhaps Catholics give the impression that we’re not as socially conscious because we are so reverent at mass and less social, but when it comes to people in need, I don’t think anyone can surpass Catholic’s care for their brothers and sisters (in Christ or not, we don’t discriminate).

 

[CoachSTL]

Happy Revert,

I want to reinforce your comments on the sense of community in a parish. I have been in several over the years because I have lived in a couple of differernt cities. The outpouring of a welcoming attitude and social caring for others has been nothing short of overwhelming. Amen on the St. Vincent DePaul! I worked it.

Skycastle79 needs a short walking tour of parish life, I suggest that they go to www.catholicscomehome.org.

Now, here is some “real presence” food for thought to Skycastle79. What greater sense of solidarity, togetherness and spiritual self-esteem could there be other than attending Mass? The Lord Jesus brings all believers to His table to “eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood” This was His command! Otherwise we will have no life in us.

If this is not the kind of solidarity, togetherness or spiritual self esteem that Skycaste79 would want to be a part of, than continue to be a Protestant!

 

[wcknight]

I left because I couldn’t live up to the moral standards required. Sunday mass became more of a burden that it should have. I couldn’t resist the temptations of the world, and I no longer believed that God could be so strict with His people.

I still believed I was a decent person, but I could not lead the life of a devout Catholic. I could not overcome my sins and I could not overcome my weaknesses. Regular confessions didn’t work, so I just gave up. I continued to pray but my faith was barely existent. I looked at other faiths but found all woefully inadequate at best, creepy and scary at worst.

Kids, family, a bit of maturity, a mental breakdown, and a brush with death finally bought me back to my senses. It’s amazing what a second lease on life can do. IF you think you’re about to die, or you think you escaped death, then you re-evaluate everything that you do and believe in. I was finally able to conclude that everything the Church was teaching was right and all my obejections and disagreements with it, were wrong.

Folks who think statues in Church are a form of idolatry don’t have a clue on what the saints are all about. IF it were, don’t you think one or more of the saints would have been condemning the practice long ago. Many have had visions of Jesus or Mary and not one has ever mentioned that such a thing is wrong or evil. But of course our protestant friends, all think these visions are from demons, so what else is new.

 

[CoachSTL]

WCKNIGHT,

Thank you for the best testimony I have ever heard! It was straight to the point and honest. But one statement stood out to me and I think you could help me with a friend who left the Church.

You stated this, “I was finally able to conclude that everything the Church was teaching was right and all my obejections and disagreements with it, were wrong.” My question for you is this.

What was happening in your mind and heart to keep you from seeing the truth about the tachings of the Church, and then what happened in your mind and heart, after the life-threatening incident, that finally allowed you to have a conversion of heart and say to yourself that you had to rethink Catholic Teaching.

I hope that this makes sense.

 

[ChristIsLord]

i left because i demand that if a church claims to be infallible in all things faith and morals then it needs to be able to keep above that very high bar it set for itself.

in my experience it hasn’t been able to do that.

 

[skycastles79]

I am Catholic. I am not Protestant. I do recognize that our Church is famous for doing charity and for doing it for free. I will not deny that. But we do not seem to be able to amount to the level of militancy and outreach that the Protestants Church has. They seem to me to be more accessible to the poor in terms of not only acting charitably but also helping them out of poverty. I think they have a stronger sense of community than we do. This should inspire us to become even better. We should look at our achievements but also at what we could improve.

 

[LynnGM]

I’ll share my story- I didn’t know any better when I converted to the Episcopal church in college. I was 21. I thought that what the liberal arm of the Episcopal church taught was the right way.

I made it a hobby to try different churches on top of maintaining Episcopal membership. I tried Lutheran (ELCA), nondenominational, Messianic Jewish, and several others. I was caught up in the idea that religious identity can be fleeting, and that I can change my faith to anything!!! Plus, my Episcopal church was liberal, so they encourage exploration.

Growing up in the 80s and 90s, I was caught up in the liberalism, modernism, agnosticism that were in my face. I thought I knew it all, but I knew nothing. Praise be Jesus for bringing me back to His Church!

 

[Peter_J]

I walked up with a smile on my face (not purposely but because of my expectation on recieving Christ) and when the priest said “the body of christ” my grin became a full on smile as I said “amen” knowing full well I was saying “so be it”. He saw my smile and unexpectedly smiled himself. My sins are forgiven and I was partaking the in Lord. How could I not rejoice?

Amen!

However, many miss this because for them its simple ritual.

I think you’re right.

It’s like a little anecdote that Dr. Scott Hahn tells in Rome Sweet Home. Shortly after his conversion, he was talking to a fellow Catholic about the importance of ‘enthusiastic singing, dynamic biblical preaching, and warm fellowship’. What did the other Catholic say in reply? “Once you have the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, you don’t need all the rest.”

My sins are forgiven and I was partaking the in Lord. How could I not rejoice?

Amen! (Sorry for the repetition, I just felt like concluding on a positive note. )

 

[CoachSTL]

skycastle79,

You need to be specific. You are saying many things without really saying anything specific. You use wordsl like “seem” a lot. Give us a specific incident that has happened to you thay makes you feel as if the Protestant churches are better at community.

There is always room for improvement! No Catholic should ever say that there is not. St. Paul reminds us of that, “we must perservere in good works until the end”

I suggest that you go to the Catholic Charities website and have a really good look and the charitable works of Catholic parishes all over the world. Without trying to toot our horn - no other churches can say that they are in the same ballpark when it comes to charitable works of community and poverty.

If you cannopt see the acts of charity in the Catholic Church, than it sounds to me that you have other issues about something with the Catholic Church. It sounds to me that you may be seeing some Catholic people in your life as hypocritical.

prayerfully,

coachstl

 

[Peter_J]

i left because i demand that if a church claims to be infallible in all things faith and morals then it needs to be able to keep above that very high bar it set for itself.

in my experience it hasn’t been able to do that.

Yes, the Church is infallible and spotless; but it is made up of fallible, sinful individuals. Those two statement don’t contradict each other, if properly understood.

 

[nosadl]

You are on a journey, along with the rest of us. Your life is not finished, just as our are not. Many of us have had similar periods in our own lives. Please do not rule out a return to the faith, as the Lord often reveals Himself to those of little or no faith in most unusual times and under unusual circumstances.

here here… i am the classic prodigal son, like you JustHuman. drifting away from my catholic roots for so long until He called me back home…

great to be back… when you do your first confession in 26 years, you get the sense that Jesus never leaves you, he’s just there waiting for you to come to your senses…

 

[po18guy]

here here… i am the classic prodigal son, like you JustHuman. drifting away from my catholic roots for so long until He called me back home…

great to be back… when you do your first confession in 26 years, you get the sense that Jesus never leaves you, he’s just there waiting for you to come to your senses…

Praise God! Welcome back.

 

[Corki]

I wonder if many leave the Church because the Protestant Churches are or seem so much more into a sense of community. If you need anything they seem to be available for you immediately and the will back you up. They bring a sense of togetherness and solidarity and spiritual self esteem. I do not knwo how much help you can actually get from a Catholic Parish when in need. I have never asked for help. I still need to find out but I have a hunch that Protestants are much more disciplined and organized in terms of reaching out to help people who have a present need for anything that has to do with survival and social companionship.

Interesting observation. However, where I live, when Hurrican Katrina sent many displaced people to shelters in our town, the United Way called our church. It was the one place where, with no notice, a small army of volunteers with food could be assembled to prepare meals for those in the shelter. I drive past 10 protestant churches between my house and my Church but ours was the one who could be counted on.

We have several ministries in our parish which do everything from providing supplies for new babies, to helping with bills and expenses for those fallen on hard times, to providing free legal and accounting services for widows. All of this is done without fanfare. I only know about it because I am involved in one of these ministries.

I guess its sad that you reached this conclusion about your parish without asking. What gave you the impression that they wouldn’t help people?