Why do people leave the Faith. What are we doing wrong?

[dedo]

what in the world are you talking about? Where on this site are there people telling others they are going to hell? Seriously, this is a rather false characterization of others on this forum and those sorts of things are against forum rules. It seems like on this thread those that are accusing others of being judgmental need to look in the mirror at themselves.

There is a contingent on this site that likes to use innuendo to suggest that others are going to hell. It is done indirectly by suggesting that what someone else is doing is a grave matter.

Often this sort of comment is directed at someone who is doing something that is no sin at all such as attending a Protestant service by a person who also gets to Mass weekly.

On the other hand, churches are made of people, all sinful, some judgmental, many incredibly kind. It is a mistake to focus on a small group of people who like to add to the Commandments in an attempt to intimidate others as representing the church. That is not the church.

Also, I don’t think that is what is causing people to leave the church. I would guess that it is the lure of popular culture. The popular culture that lures people is not necessarily always sinful, and may just keep people occupied with activities other than trying to seek God and serve others.

The lure of popular culture is very powerful and much of what lures us can be dangerous.

It is amazing to me how people don’t connect the bad choices that they make in life to their choosing to separate themselves from spiritual guidance.

Personally, one reason I stay in church is fearing making bad choices. I made a bad choice a couple weeks ago when I took a fall in a judo class that would have broken the neck of many people my age. I believe two things saved me: saying a Hail Mary before every workout and a feeling I got ~ 6 months ago that I needed to strengthen my neck that lead me to add neck isometrics to my workouts. Had I not been in church would I have heeded the “feeling”? So I am taking a closer look at my own choices. I obviously have a ways to go.

Nevertheless, we cannot eliminate popular culture so the “solution” must be found elsewhere.

I don’t know the solution. Father Barron on You Tube recently reviewed a book about the steps of evangelization. (Forming Intentional Disciples by Weddell)

youtube.com/watch?v=aO0H0Cdn3C4&list=UUcMjLgeWNwqL2LBGS-iPb1A

I just received it but I think it will be helpful to understand the how to get people back into the church.

I am also wondering if incorporating spiritual fitness into an effort to improve physical fitness might be helpful as a doorway to getting people back to church.

 

[Emily2014]

All I can say is that I am a cradle Catholic raised by the Jesuits and have worked at a Jesuit school for 20 years. When I hear it is are responsibility to point out sinners and evangelize other to become Catholic to be saved I want to leave my faith. I have a great deal of respect for the other religions that knock on my door to evangelize and accept my answer that I am a committed Catholic, yet on this site many just don’t do that and then tell the people they are going to hell, like they know it for a fact. They speak as if they are God themselves, They use the Bible to judge others and it is huge turn off. Luckily I do work at a Jesuit school where we simple do not do that.

Thank God for you and for all Catholics who feel as you do.

 

[paulrxp]

Thank God for you and for all Catholics who feel as you do.

And to Hades with the rest who don’t right?

 

[Emily2014]

Paulrxp,

I did not and would not say such a thing! Why on earth are you so aggressive?

 

[bmaj]

one of my relatives left the church over 30 years ago, out of pure ignorance and poor catechesis (perhaps he slept during Mass? or CCD?). …

So here are some reasons:

1. Poor Catechesis so unable to defend faith against those who claim you aren’t Christian
2. Can’t do a mixed marriage (so chooses spouse’s church instead)
3. Just wants his or her own rules (like those who said people left due to teachings on premarital sex and contraception)

So many excellent reasons as posted by lots of previous folks in this thread, but I think jedilz gave three very fundamental ones above…at least from what I’ve seen around me. I somehow think those who say they left the Church because of the abuse scandals or because of its opposition to same-sex marriages or married/female Priests may really just be using those as excuses for #3 above. I also think it appears to many people to be so much “easier” NOT to be Catholic - no need to humble themselves and go to Reconciliation (this seems to be VERY hard for people I’ve known) or even Mass each Sunday, no need to worry about the pain of Purgatory or Hell as long as they “accept Jesus as their Savior…” in their hearts as many of the non-Catholic Christian churches preach. But I wonder deep down inside how many truly miss receiving Our Lord Himself in the Holy Eucharist - or even understand the amazing truth of that (perhaps it never really “sank in” when they were taught it…).
So, to answer the original question, maybe many of us aren’t doing all that much “wrong” in causing others to leave the Church. God gave humans free will to choose in life, and many are using that to do their own easier thing. Making our lives an every-day fitting example of the Catholic Church’s teachings and God’s love and hope for every single person on this earth can sometimes do much more than strong, direct words of defense and apology for our religion.

 

[EasterJoy]

You just proved my point of why people are leaving the faith with that response. Can you even possibly consider that other people don’t think Gay Marriage and Masturbation are wrong and a sin? By equating and comparing them to smoking, you lose all credibility and thus are not tolerating or respecting their opinion at all. In fact, you have already judged their opinion to be WRONG and yours to be the TRUTH.

What do you mean, *I *have judged their opinion wrong? I am only saying what we are taught and must accept as a dogma. This is from Lumen Gentium, Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church:

“Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25).

Are you saying that the way for the Catholic Church to attract members is to tell people that the Apostles had a good guess at the truth, but never said they could tell right from wrong for other people? Are you saying that the way for the Catholic Church to attract members is to suppose the bishops have no authority to teach morals binding on the faithful? The problem with that “solution” is that it is utterly false. The Apostles taught no such thing, and at no time in the whole history of the Church has any such thing been taught. Not everyone has liked it, this is why there are thousands of Christian denominations in the US alone, but it is what the bishops are bound to teach. It is not within their authority to change this teaching, nor is it within ours. If we say the Church teaches otherwise, we lie.

 

[EasterJoy]

And to Hades with the rest who don’t right?

No. The Church must teach which matters carry a gravity sufficient to be a mortal sin. The Church does not read hearts, is not charged with assessing culpability, and does not hold power over the mercy of God. The Church has not declared a single person to have been condemned to Hell, as this is a judgment reserved to God alone.

It is the Church’s office, rather, to warn those who will hear what they have heard from the Apostolic teaching concerning what things are forbidden, what are permitted, and what are duties, and the gravity of each thing. If the Church were to fail to do this, it would be the Church which would be liable to judgment for a grave dereliction of duty.

 

[shelby_sun]

Same answer Easter Joy gave. Why and what are you saying, and what are you really committed to? Someone who knocks on your door and tells you to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. You have respect for that, but yet no respect for the Catholic that tells you Jesus is the way , the Truth and the life?

You’re a committed Catholic, but if a Catholic speaks that the Church is the only way to salvation you’re ready to jump ship? You respect other religions for what tolerance? Go read the Talmud or the Koran, then come back and tell us how those faiths respect Christians and infidels.

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]). St Ignatius of Antioch

Walked , talked and broke bread with one of Jesus’ apostles.
Did St Ignatius sound like he was being God? Is he too intolerant for you? He got ripped to shreds by lions for stating what some of us Catholics believe today. The foundations of Catholic faith today are built on on mud instead of what it has always been, ,a rock.*

Well first Southern Baptist who knock on my door would not ask me question Christ would they. I said I respected them for taking my answer the first time and not trying to intimidate me with their beliefs. Yes I accept that other have different people have different beliefs and faith because they were brought up to believe what they do. Why in the world would they listen to someone like you anymore than you would listen to them. I respect they follow what they were raised to follow just like I was and I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to try to change my faith or even question it.

You don’t seem you really like the Catholic church right now and that is no one else fault but your own.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I also think it appears to many people to be so much “easier” NOT to be Catholic - no need to humble themselves and go to Reconciliation (this seems to be VERY hard for people I’ve known) or even Mass each Sunday, no need to worry about the pain of Purgatory or Hell as long as they “accept Jesus as their Savior…” in their hearts as many of the non-Catholic Christian churches preach. But I wonder deep down inside how many truly miss receiving Our Lord Himself in the Holy Eucharist - or even understand the amazing truth of that (perhaps it never really “sank in” when they were taught it…).
So, to answer the original question, maybe many of us aren’t doing all that much “wrong” in causing others to leave the Church…

Not quite. The person who posted that the tolerance for bad behavior among the “leaders” at some parishes, schools, and other organizations run by the Church scandalizes victims of social aggression and even witnesses left impotent to help stop the offenses into leaving the Church–that was on the mark. That is something we sometimes do wrong, and there is no excuse for it.

We have a grave duty not to let that happen. Families who have had the faith for a thousand years have left the Church over being made victims of this sort of transgression. It is an extremely serious lapse, and we must take it more seriously than we do. It is like the gravity of being found in the situation of learning how many people were victimized by misguided leniency towards priests who had violated the trust of those in their pastoral care in such unspeakable ways. It was gravely necessary to do whatever had to be done to change that pattern of governance, and to do it quickly.

The other thing we do is to fail to look for those in our midst who need help to be socially included in the life of the Church. These members do not leave because they are victimized so much as they leave because they are hurt at how they are ignored by those who ought to actively show them kindnesses. We can be very bad about that, and that lapse is a serious failure.

 

[shelby_sun]

what in the world are you talking about? Where on this site are there people telling others they are going to hell? Seriously, this is a rather false characterization of others on this forum and those sorts of things are against forum rules. It seems like on this thread those that are accusing others of being judgmental need to look in the mirror at themselves.

Not on this post but certainly on this site many times over. If you haven’t read them you are very lucky, because I have many times, and only God can make those decisions.

 

[paulrxp]

Well first Southern Baptist who knock on my door would not ask me question Christ would they. I said I respected them for taking my answer the first time and not trying to intimidate me with their beliefs. Yes I accept that other have different people have different beliefs and faith because they were brought up to believe what they do. Why in the world would they listen to someone like you anymore than you would listen to them. I respect they follow what they were raised to follow just like I was and I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to try to change my faith or even question it.

You don’t seem you really like the Catholic church right now and that is no one else fault but your own.

And you don’t think I should be able to profess the faith I was raised in is that it? All I can do is speak the truth, if that does not conform with someone elses morality or understanding of what is true, I’m certainly not going to compromise the truth of Church teachings.
I don’t know where Southern Baptists came from, do they deny the divinity of Christ? No, so where you going with that? I worded my reply carefully, read it, otherwise I’ll distort your replies in the same way.

I love the Jesus and the Catholic Church. Do you love Cathollic.com forum? Doesn’t appear that way, but I do If I didn’t like the Catholic Church, I’d join one of the other ones you seem better at defending. Honestly, if anyone is going to defend the Catholic faith in this secular world, you better not be so thin skinned, because you’ll get replies from non-believers much more harsh than mine, that I assure you.

 

[Emily2014]

And you don’t think I should be able to profess the faith I was raised in is that it? All I can do is speak the truth, if that does not conform with someone elses morality or understanding of what is true, I’m certainly not going to compromise the truth of Church teachings.
I don’t know where Southern Baptists came from, do they deny the divinity of Christ? No, so where you going with that? I worded my reply carefully, read it, otherwise I’ll distort your replies in the same way.

I love the Jesus and the Catholic Church. Do you love Cathollic.com forum? Doesn’t appear that way, but I do If I didn’t like the Catholic Church, I’d join one of the other ones you seem better at defending. Honestly, if anyone is going to defend the Catholic faith in this secular world, you better not be so thin skinned, because you’ll get replies from non-believers much more harsh than mine, that I assure you.

AGAIN I ask you why you feel the need to be so aggressive. It doesn’t achieve anything!

 

[EasterJoy]

Well first Southern Baptist who knock on my door would not ask me question Christ would they. I said I respected them for taking my answer the first time and not trying to intimidate me with their beliefs. Yes I accept that other have different people have different beliefs and faith because they were brought up to believe what they do. Why in the world would they listen to someone like you anymore than you would listen to them. I respect they follow what they were raised to follow just like I was and I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to try to change my faith or even question it. …

Pretty much, yes. Let us remember what the dogma is: Those who have been given the opportunity to accept the faith are duty-bound to accept it. What can be left legitimately at issue is what “given the opportunity” means in any particular case. That is a judgment that belongs to God, who alone reads hearts. So while it is a duty for an evangelist to say, “This is what you must believe and accept,” that does not mean the evangelist has the office to condemn those who don’t accept the message.

It is like the difference between saying, “If you shoot and kill a thief running away from your home, that is murder in this state”–something you have a duty to tell a neighbor who hotly pronounces that he’ll do just that if he catches anyone thieving on his property–and seeing someone who seems to have done just that and saying, “You shot him? Hey, neighbors, we have a murderer right here. We can see the evidence. Let’s string him up right here and now.” We have the duty to communicate to our neighbor what moral law is, and not just say, “Well, that isn’t the way I see it, but maybe I’m wrong. I guess after you go ahead and shoot someone, we’ll see who was right. Maybe we’re both wrong.” If we know the law, we have to say so. We do not have the authority to be judge or jury when we learn of a transgression, though.

This is something we can allow each other: OK, you’ve told me what I have to believe, you’ve done your duty, what I do with what you say is on my head. I can preach to you, you can preach to me, we can both say at the same time that we have the truth. That isn’t offensive. At some point, though, we need to leave the other person to discern what to do with what they have heard and seen. That is between them and God. There is no reason I can’t live with the knowledge that someone else will not believe the truth or that I can’t live with the knowledge that someone believes I am in grave error myself. That is not an inherently offensive situation–that is, neither of us has to say, “Well, you may be right” in order to be respectful. We can stick to our guns and believe we have the truth; that doesn’t harm the people who think we’re wrong, nor does it harm us to speak the truth and not be believed. What ought to be defended is the ability to do one’s duty with regards to speaking the truth as one has been given to see the truth.

 

[EasterJoy]

Not on this post but certainly on this site many times over. If you haven’t read them you are very lucky, because I have many times, and only God can make those decisions.

The opposite error, however, is to say, “Well, the Church teaches that such-and-so is wrong, but I don’t think everything the Church teaches has to be believed by every Catholic. We have to form our own consciences.” That is not true. Our faith teaches that the bishops do have the authority to teach faith and morals and that their teaching is binding on the faithful. We have a duty to form our consciences correctly, and to strive to act in accordance with the faith and morals taught by the Church.

 

[dedo]

The opposite error, however, is to say, “Well, the Church teaches that such-and-so is wrong, but I don’t think everything the Church teaches has to be believed by every Catholic. We have to form our own consciences.” That is not true. Our faith teaches that the bishops do have the authority to teach faith and morals and that their teaching is binding on the faithful. We have a duty to form our consciences correctly, and to strive to act in accordance with the faith and morals taught by the Church.

Indeed, and we should pay close attention to our own parish priest first, and his bishop according to the lines of authority in our own diocese. These people do have authority and we should respect that.

I think what she was referring to is some forum members with a little knowledge but no authority whatsoever who prey on the vulnerable. We do not need to listen to such people.

However, these people are not the cause of people leaving the church since relatively few people participate in forums and the good outweighs the bad.

The problem is not people being turned off by harsh Catholics, the problem is the millions of people who don’t have contact with religious instruction anywhere since they don’t think it is relevant or important.

I think that cause is related to the popular culture that has so many areas where we can spend time. That does not mean the popular culture should be blamed, since it is our individual responsibility to know where to draw the line.

In fact, I believe that the popular culture could be part of the solution.

 

[EasterJoy]

Indeed, and we should pay close attention to our own parish priest first, and his bishop according to the lines of authority in our own diocese. These people do have authority and we should respect that.

I think what she was referring to is some forum members with a little knowledge but no authority whatsoever who prey on the vulnerable. We do not need to listen to such people.

However, these people are not the cause of people leaving the church since relatively few people participate in forums and the good outweighs the bad.

The problem is not people being turned off by harsh Catholics, the problem is the millions of people who don’t have contact with religious instruction anywhere since they don’t think it is relevant or important.

I think that cause is related to the popular culture that has so many areas where we can spend time. That does not mean the popular culture should be blamed, since it is our individual responsibility to know where to draw the line.

In fact, I believe that the popular culture could be part of the solution.

I would venture to say that it is every bit as important to speak up when some attempt is made to lay burdens not imposed by the Church onto the faithful as if they were taught by the Church as it is to speak up when someone tries to subtract something from the faith.

*I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. * Rev. 22:18-19

I taught my catechism students that while it was not intended for metaphorical language to be taken literally–surely many truths are beyond the capacity of human language to convey them literally and yet fully–serious metaphors ought to still be taken seriously. Not literally. Definitely just as seriously as if they were meant literally.

 

[shelby_sun]

The opposite error, however, is to say, “Well, the Church teaches that such-and-so is wrong, but I don’t think everything the Church teaches has to be believed by every Catholic. We have to form our own consciences.” That is not true. Our faith teaches that the bishops do have the authority to teach faith and morals and that their teaching is binding on the faithful. We have a duty to form our consciences correctly, and to strive to act in accordance with the faith and morals taught by the Church.

First, these are men who are inspired by God but not God themselves. Secondly, I cannot just believe something I simply don’t believe and I would be lying to say I believed in something I didn’t and God would be the first to know I was lying.

So are you saying that if I don’t believe everything the church teaches I should not be in the Catholic church? Are you saying that if I do not believe everything the Catholic Church teaches I will not be saved? If you are (just trying to clarify) than yes it is people like you that lead people to chose to leave the Church.

My goodness with all the teaching of the Church and all the “amendments” to all the teachings, and the “clarification” to the amendments it has become more complicated than the US government.

I have no problem with someone reminded me of what the Catholic Church teaches, but I get put off when they that I will not be saved because I don’t agree with some small no doctrine teaching. That is why there are a lot less people like me who post one this site.
I am just a glutton for punishment I guess.

 

[shelby_sun]

And you don’t think I should be able to profess the faith I was raised in is that it? All I can do is speak the truth, if that does not conform with someone elses morality or understanding of what is true, I’m certainly not going to compromise the truth of Church teachings.
I don’t know where Southern Baptists came from, do they deny the divinity of Christ? No, so where you going with that? I worded my reply carefully, read it, otherwise I’ll distort your replies in the same way.

I love the Jesus and the Catholic Church. Do you love Cathollic.com forum? Doesn’t appear that way, but I do If I didn’t like the Catholic Church, I’d join one of the other ones you seem better at defending. Honestly, if anyone is going to defend the Catholic faith in this secular world, you better not be so thin skinned, because you’ll get replies from non-believers much more harsh than mine, that I assure you.

I not a bit think skin, and I have already faced and am still here. Just so you know this not a forum for strictly Catholic who love the Church, so may want to know that now so you would get to worked up later.

You speak your truth, none of know what the real truth is, we believe we do. Only God KNOWS what the truth is, that is what people like you don’t like to here. I have faith and beliefs, but I will have to wait to know the truth.

 

[dedo]

I would venture to say that it is every bit as important to speak up when some attempt is made to lay burdens not imposed by the Church onto the faithful as if they were taught by the Church as it is to speak up when someone tries to subtract something from the faith.

*I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. * Rev. 22:18-19

I taught my catechism students that while it was not intended for metaphorical language to be taken literally–surely many truths are beyond the capacity of human language to convey them literally and yet fully–serious metaphors ought to still be taken seriously. Not literally. Definitely just as seriously as if they were meant literally.

I agree completely.

It is a mistake to either think “we know it all” or that the “no one knows”. Legitimate religious scholars know way more than us laymen, and we should listen to them with the goal of continuously improving ourselves – no matter where we are today.

It is great that you volunteer to teach students in catechism.

 

[EasterJoy]

First, these are men who are inspired by God but not God themselves. Secondly, I cannot just believe something I simply don’t believe and I would be lying to say I believed in something I didn’t and God would be the first to know I was lying.

So are you saying that if I don’t believe everything the church teaches I should not be in the Catholic church? Are you saying that if I do not believe everything the Catholic Church teaches I will not be saved? If you are (just trying to clarify) than yes it is people like you that lead people to chose to leave the Church.

My goodness with all the teaching of the Church and all the “amendments” to all the teachings, and the “clarification” to the amendments it has become more complicated than the US government.

I have no problem with someone reminded me of what the Catholic Church teaches, but I get put off when they that I will not be saved because I don’t agree with some small no doctrine teaching. That is why there are a lot less people like me who post one this site.
I am just a glutton for punishment I guess.

If you don’t believe what the Church teaches yet, you ought to try to understand more fully so that you may come to believe it. No one wants you to leave, but I hope no one is indifferent to whether or not you ever fully accept the faith, either, as it is precious and necessary.

You really ought to read Lumen Gentium. The Jesuits can help you with it, if you have questions.